Internal organ injury

[trial]

A cut 5 cm deep in the arm may cause some bleeding, pain, and the loss of functionality of the arm. However, if treated the injured man will probabblyt survive the injury.
A cut 5 cm deep in the belly may reach the stomach which will cause a lot more pain, maybe internal bleeding and will probabblyt be fatal for the person that have this injury.
Is there a consideration in the difference of being injured in the toroso and therfore having damage to an internal organ rather then being injured in a limb that has no internal organs?

[luke]

BW handles such things via abstraction and retroactive interpretation.

If a character is badly injured, it's because his organs were hit. He's not hit in the organs and then badly injured.

We let the dice and the PTGS decide this after the hit and damage have been processed.

You see, while your example is gruesome, there is no simple cause and effect regarding the human body and injury. In my research I've found cases where people were stabbed in the eye, shot through the middle, stabbed dozens of times or just conked on the head. Some die rather quickly, most don't. Human beings are remarkably resilient.

So the effect your describing? Let's say your character takes a Light Wound (-1D). Why? Because was sliced across the stomach but there was no penetration. If he took a Traumatic Wound (-4D), we interpret that as a deep puncture with lots of messy bleeding and debilitating pain.

Does that help?
-L

[trial]

Yes, but what if the character have different levels of protection?
Lets say it have a breast plate but only chainmail on the hands?
Since injuries on the hand are less fatal, even if your hand is being cut off you are more likely to survive it (with a treatment) then an injury in an internal organ (that no treatment will save you).
So would a traumatic wound would be less likely to be cause then a light wound because of the protection on the toroso?
Is the level of wound that might be cause, takes into consideration the protection on the toroso?

[Thor]

A traumatic wound is a traumatic wound. Period. It signifies slicing an artery, or severe organ damage or whatever. Doesn't matter where it happens. If you've got blood spraying from a severed arm, your Blood Clock (game system) is running, and you need to have it treated quickly before it bleeds into a Mortal Wound.

As to different armor types, that's an entirely different system. When you launch an attack, your enemy declares what location is "on offer." He might say "torso, where I have that big steel breast plate." As the attacker, if you have enough successes, you can spend a success to move the attack to his arms, which are only covered in chain.

Then the defender gets to test his armor to see if it deflects the blow. If it doesn't, then he's taking a wound.

[trial]

But if the attack is to the arms there is no chance of taking a fatal wound, since its only the arms.
Is that in the system? that you cant have a fatal wound if the hit is to the arm?

[Kublai]

I think people have died from losing an arm in the past. I am pretty sure about this.

[luke]

Hi Trial,

I think you're talking about two separate issues here.

First, I already explained wound location. We don't describe the final results of a wound until we see exactly how badly the character was hit and where.

A Mortal Wound to the arm means the whole limb has been wrenched off and out. The character spews his life's blood in great volume quickly. There are no Mortal Wounds to the hand, the toe or the knee. It's not possible in BW.

Second, you're asking if different types of armor can be used to cover different locations. The answer is yes. You can where chainmail gloves and a steel breastplate. The protect different locations with a different amount of dice.

hope that helps,
-L

[Durgil]

Shopping around, Trial? :lol:

[trial]

As long as the arm is being cut off below the shoulder, you can use a toutniquet to stop the bleeding, which means the injury is not fatal.
However, an injury in an internal organ even not a very deep cut, will be most likely untreatable and cause the person certain death (i.e. fatal wound).
You might even die faster from a cut off hand injury then the injury in an internal organ, the difference between the two injuries is that the first can be treated and therfore prevent death and the second is untreatable and will cause certain death.
The question is, is there a ditinction between the two types of injuries?

[Kevin]

In a sense, yes. If a character suffers a Mortal Wound, he can spend a point of Artha to have the "Will to Live". No artha, or no spending, and the character dies.

BW treats injury in a fairly abstract fashion. Basically, you get a wound level with certain game effects and it's up to you to figure out what that wound means in "real" terms (and by the way, any wound can be fatal if the victim goes into shock as a result).

If you want a game with a some similarity of style that is more concrete in how it handles these things, you may find that you prefer The Riddle of Steel (http://www.theriddleofsteel.net/). TROS has detailed wound charts for each location that explain exactly what the would level means on an arm hit vs. a torso hit. In BW, the location doesn't matter unless the defender has armor there.

[luke]

What exactly do you mean by distinction?

There are six grades of wounds in Burning Wheel. All of them fit into what you've been inquiring after.

However, there is NO mechanic that says, "you hit him and puncture his liver." It's an abstract system. Whether or not any vitals have been punctured is determined by the severity of the hit when compared with the physical tolerances of the target.

-L

[trial]

Yes, I have asked the same question (even copy pasted the text) in TROS forum.
Anyway, both systems are great and I thank for all the replies.

[Durgil]

Don't give-up on BW so quickly. I don't have access to BW's revised edition yet, but the current version handles this occurance quite well, though quite differently than TRoS. I suggest that if funds allow, you purchase both, as I have done, as well as maybe a few other games and settings that I'm quite fond of. BW armour either completely defends its wearer or not - there is no kind of "soak" that you find in other games, but it does work surprisingly well. The older system doesn't determine a specific hit location, like HârnMaster or TRoS, so a Mortal Wound wouldn't likely be ruled to have hit an arm or hand. I'm not sure exactly how the new system will now handle this, but I have full faith in Luke and the rest of his NYC gang to have crunched out some very top notch rules that keep the BW feel.

[trial]

What exactly do you mean by distinction?

There are six grades of wounds in Burning Wheel. All of them fit into what you've been inquiring after.

However, there is NO mechanic that says, "you hit him and puncture his liver." It's an abstract system. Whether or not any vitals have been punctured is determined by the severity of the hit when compared with the physical tolerances of the target.

-L
One attribute of the wound can be how fast you will die from it and what pain and handicap it causes you. That is what I believe is the grade of the wound in BW. Howver another attribute of the wound can be if it is treatable, thats an attribute which is not necessarly depend on the first attribute of the wound.
In BW there is only one attribute of the wound.

[luke]

Wounds Bleed in Burning Wheel, but that's another story.

If you're looking for a violent medical simulation game, I'm sure there are better systems out there for your needs.

The secret to BW? It just doesn't fucking care. You're going down, you're going to die. What more details do we need? There are too many other things to worry about in this game to focus on the level of detail you're after.

Our basic system supports a range of action and a level of in-game, in-character development that, frankly, 99% of games do not.

Intrinsic to that is a player priorities/rewards system that will change the way you think about roleplaying in general.

Our advanced systems offer incredibly detailed and evocative support for situations ranging from duels of swords and sorcery, to conflicts of ideology, to tracking down the MF who's tracking you down, to kick-ass explosives and mounted combat rules.

It just doesn't have time to focus on the biomechanical reasons that you are dying from. That you are dying is enough.
-L

[Fourth Horseman]

Hey Trial, I had a nice long witty post written that got deleted somehow. Thank god.

Here'a a couple of lines to sum up everything I wrote. You are thinking of wound decriptions ex ante (before the fact), the system contemplates the GM describing them ex poste (after the fact). The wound mechanics are meant to give you tools to determine how serious a wound is and what its effect will be once all other variables are factored, it isn't meant to dictate how you describe them like certain critical charts from other games do, which shall remain nameless.

Refrain from applying adjectives to wounds until after all the various armor, feildressing, and health checks have been made then insert flowery language describing wounds here--and all will become self-evident.

Hope that helps.

Lates

[trial]

Dont get me wrong. I think BW and TROS has the most realistic battle system I have seen.
Since I dont have my copy of BW, I was just curious about this issue.
I hope I didnt make you angry or something, because you sounded a bit like that.

[Kublai]

Don't worry Trial! That's just their shining personalities. Don't take it personally! :lol:

[Yagathai]

Or do take it personally, and end up bitter and twisted like the rest of us. Misery loves company, after all.

[Viper]

Relax, or you're all going to make abzu feel like he's being an abzu again.

[Catalyst]

IMO, fatal wounds to a limb as don't just damage the limb but blow through the limb to other parts as well. For example, a mighty blow from a giant's club to the upper arm will probably cause unholy mayhem to a target's ribs and chest cavity before it stops its motion.

Is it wrong of me to have just had a potential sound effect of that go through my head? :lol:

[Catalyst]

IMO, fatal wounds to a limb as don't just damage the limb but blow through the limb to other parts as well. For example, a mighty blow from a giant's club to the upper arm will probably cause unholy mayhem to a target's ribs and chest cavity before it stops its motion.

Is it wrong of me to have just had a potential sound effect of that go through my head? :lol:

[Catalyst]

IMO, fatal wounds to a limb as don't just damage the limb but blow through the limb to other parts as well. For example, a mighty blow from a giant's club to the upper arm will probably cause unholy mayhem to a target's ribs and chest cavity before it stops its motion.

Is it wrong of me to have just had a potential sound effect of that go through my head?

[Catalyst]

Sorry about that, looks like some caching issues are going on on my browser. I hang my head in shame. Where do I get my posting dunce cap and what corner do I stand in? Heheh.