Cog Combat! ships battles

[Enlil]

I am expecting my players to get control of a ship at some point. I am going for more of a 12 or 13th century, the combat will consist of cogs and maybe hulks, if I can figure out exactly what a hulk is (the descriptions of it seem to vary a lot) and how it is distinct from a cog. So here are my thoughts on how ship to ship combat should go, using what I have gleaned of the new positioning rules, and the bits I remember from that skirmish battle thingy. This ain't organized, I'm just vomiting forth what I've been thinking:

Positioning

The positions are Out of Range, Artillery, Long Missile, Short Missile, and Close.

All positioning rolls are based off of Helmsman. The Captain normally commands of the helmsman. In the initial test allows the captain to add helping dice from Sea-Wise, Ship-Wise, and Tactics - thereafter he can only help with one skill.

Instead of changing more than one position, if one ship gets two or more successes than the other, they may gain on bonus die of advantage or reduce the other ships bonus die by one for each 2 points they beat the other ship by. Only one ship has bonus dice at any time. This represents positioning the ship with the wind at its back and the other ship at a less favorable angle.

In the initial positioning test, ships generally should start out of range unless one is surprised, so only in the initial test. If the ships meet on the open sea, both sets of crew in the crow's nests should make Observation rolls (best observer, helped by anyone else in the Crow's Nest with observation). Whoever gets more successes get +2 dice to the initial positioning test. If one side flubs it, the other side may advance closer than out of range in the initial positioning test (they are surprised).

Other than that, it should follow the normal rules for positioning.


Other bits

Each Exchange consists of 3 volleys of 1 action each. Each is long enough to loose missile attacks once.

Each ship is divided into 3 sections - forecastle, aft castle, and middecks. This is partly to give 3 players something to do instead of just the captain, and partly because it feels right to me.

Orders
Castle Orders:
Repel Boarders
Boarding Attack
Attack Crew (at middecks, fore or aft)
Attack Ship (with artillery - should be at rigging or hull - takes an action to set)
Hide
Transfer Crew
Send message
Possible other actions (no idea how to work them yet)
Fire Attack (attack at rigging or fore or aft)
Fight Fire


Middecks Orders:
Send Message
Fight Fire
Transfer Crew
Damage Control
Repel Boarders

Order Desciptions
Repel Boarders - Counters and gives a bonus against a Boarding Attack. I've still not figured out exactly how to do melee combat - it may work like missile attacks.

Boarding Attack - Gives bonus dice against missile attacks and hiding.

Attack Crew - must specify in advance whether the attack is at the middecks, fore or aft. Make a normal missile attack (see below) at the crew.

Attack Ship (with artillery - should be at rigging or hull - takes an action to set) - this should damage the ship, but I'm not sure how yet.

Hide - doesn't get a missile attack, but vastly increases the difficulty of hitting the crew.

Transfer Crew - transfers crew to the adjacent section. May require a command roll. Crew counts as hiding.

Send message - send a message to any section. May require a command roll. Crew counts as hiding.

Damage Control - Fix the rigging and sail, bucket out water.

Attacking
To make a missile attack, you take the leaders missile skill, plus bonus dice from additional attackers. You get the normal number of helping dice from a bow (i.e. +1 unless you are a god). +1 additional from crossbows, but they can only fire every other turn. You can choose to shoot some or all of your crossbows each turn. Artillery adds 3 or more dice, depending on the type, but may also only be fired every so many actions (again depending on type). Artillery shots should be the artillerists score + bonus dice from the artillery.

The obstacle is calculated as follows:
1 base
+3 for full cover in the castles or middecks when not doing damage control (non-cogs may get less cover)
+3 if the other crew is hiding
+1 for movement if either ship is moving
+1 if your ship is not maintaining
+3 if using a missile weapon at Missile Long Range
+3 if using a thrown weapon at Missile Short Range

For each success over the obstacle, the other ship loses one crew in the effected section. If there are melee guys in the section, and the other crew is making a missile attack, a melee guy is removed on a 1-2 on the DoF.

Melee combat is still to be determined, but may be an opposed die roll with the same type of bonus dice as that skirmish thing I saw quite a while ago, but sectional.

Okay, I'm tired as hell. If anyone chews through this post, let me know what you think.

Christian

[Drozdal]

I do not know if i suppose to say that but more than a year ago we playtested (big)ship to (big)ship combat rules with for another super secret project (that didin't worked out), so maybe Abzu will post or send to You rough draft, but Your thing also looks pretty good.

[Thor]

Hey Christian! Have you seen the Revision yet?! I ask, because you've come up with something remarkably similar to our Range and Cover rules for ranged combat. Not exactly the same, but close. I suggest you wait just a little bit for that part, because I think we give you exactly what you need, with some cool options thrown in.

As for ship maneuvering, I'm almost with you. Here's what I suggest:

1. Give ships a stat for Speed. Some ships are just faster than others. This reflects that fact. Speed is the core of the ship's positioning test.

2. Determine which ship has the better helmsman. That ship gets a bonus die.

3. Determine which ship has the wind gauge (i.e., which side is better positioned to capture the wind...roll a DoF if you like. If the loser can win two consecutive Positioning tests against the winner of the DoF roll, he gets the wind gauge. Alternatively, see below). The ship with the wind gauge gets a bonus die.

This is your basic ship Positioning Test. However, we can do something to better reflect the skills of the commanders, especially if the ships are Out of Range.

1. If he's got it, the Captain of the ship rolls Tactics (and anyappropriate FoRKs, like Strategy Games, Shoal-wise, etc.) in a Linked Test as part of an attempt to outwit the other captain. As always with Linked tests, the captain provides the next character in the Linked Test with +1D for exceeding Obstacle, and +1 Obstacle for failing.

2. The Pilot makes his Piloting test with any appropriate FoRKs (ship-wise, Shoal-wise). Others provide Helping Dice (Command from the captain, Sea-wise, current-wise, wind-wise, etc.) And the pilot gets +1D if the Captain exceeded Ob in the first test or +1 Ob if the captain failed in the first test.

3. This test determines which ship starts with the Wind Gauge.

[Enlil]

Nope, I haven't seen the revision yet, but I gleaned a bit from the old 'no more paces' thread and bits from what I've read in the arena. I am quite looking forward to seeing the positioning rules, though. I'm sure I will alter my ideas a bit when I see it.

Wind gauge! That is probably the term I was looking for to represent the bonus positioning dice.

I had a vague idea of speed being a modifier to Helm. I don't like Helm being reduced to a helping die, though - maybe the positioning roll should be Speed + Helm? Wouldn't break the system if you assume most ships have around a 4 for Speed.

I saw the in the Rigging skill description that there were supposed to be forthcoming ship rules at some point, but figured they had probably fallen by the wayside or were for the far future. I'd love to know what was planned, though.

Christian

[Thor]

I had a vague idea of speed being a modifier to Helm. I don't like Helm being reduced to a helping die, though - maybe the positioning roll should be Speed + Helm? Wouldn't break the system if you assume most ships have around a 4 for Speed.

I saw the in the Rigging skill description that there were supposed to be forthcoming ship rules at some point, but figured they had probably fallen by the wayside or were for the far future. I'd love to know what was planned, though.

Christian

Actually there is no Helm skill. It's Piloting. So I've got that accounted for in the optional Linked test for capturing the Wind Gauge, as well as giving a Helping Die for the Speed test. It all comes down to how detailed you want to be.

Making the roll Speed + Helm is actually counter to the Philosophy behind Burning Wheel. I think that if ships have a Speed Rating of 3 or 4, 1D from having the best Pilot is pretty good. Also, the best Pilot stands a good chance of winning the Wind Gauge if you use that option, which could add an additional die.

Rigging remains a skill in Revised. You can reflect this in multiple ways. Either allow the Sailors working the rigging to provide Helping Dice to the Pilot for his roll, or make it another step in the Linked Test that follows the Piloting roll.

[Kublai]

I would suggest Piloting be the tested skill, with linked Command and Rigging tests granting bonus dice, and having different ships grant different bonus dice, and finally use the suggested weapon weapon ranges for the final bonus dice. So maybe:

Pilot 5D
+ 1D from Command
+ 1D from Rigging
+ 1D from Sloop-style ship
+ 2D for Long Missle Range Weapon

[Thor]

Hey Kublai. That's perfectly valid, and not a bad solution at all. I went the way I did because in the material (I've read way too much Hornblower and Master & Commander), there's only so much that Piloting can do to equalize the disparity between certain ships. A great pilot and captain can go a long, long way toward evening things up. But sometimes it's not enough.

Personally, that really makes me drool. Why? Because it means that sometimes, the really smart, skilled guy is going to have to set some sort of trap in order to close with his enemy. I want to be able to have scenes like the one in Master & Commander: The Far Side of the World where Aubrey's ship is far outclassed by the Acheron, and he needs to use Trickery to get it to approach.

So basically, I want to weight the capabilities of the ship as most important, and allow all the other stuff to work as equalizers.

[rafial]

Avast, this is great stuff. I think I'm going to have to pull out my notes on galley combat for Tarshish and see how it all fits into this (B)rave new (W)orld.

[Kublai]

So basically, I want to weight the capabilities of the ship as most important, and allow all the other stuff to work as equalizers.

I understand this, of course, and it was my first reaction, too. But then I thought that the player should be the center and not the ship. So the player gets a skill test and can spend artha on himself and not on a ship.

[Enlil]

Yeah, the major reason to make Helmsman or Pilot the skill used was to center things on the character, and give them skill advances. Artha is a good point that I hadn't thought of. But I also agree that speed should probably be important. Hence, I thought it might be a synergistic sort of skill, like Sorcery. I can see your point about speed being massively important for some settings, though. So overall, I'm still considering.

Helmsman is what is in Classic (my current reference), can't wait to see the revised. :D

rafial, I would love to see anything on galleys. The players may face them at some point!

Christian

[Enlil]

Here are some specific thougthts on Cogs:

The Fore and Aft Castles and Midship should each have crew capacity. The castles should also have a number of people who can use missile weapons at the same time. So transfering crew and sending messages should be vital.

example:

Name Forecastle Aftcastle Midship Artillery
Medium Cog 5/10 5/10 15 Light Catapult aft

would mean that a Medium Cog could have 10 people in each, but only 5 could attack with missile weapons in any one round. The Midships can hold 15. The aftcastle is also armed with a Light Catapult.

Other stats needed may include some way to track ship damage and speed. Any other stats anyone can think of? Perhaps a list of features or traits.

Christian

[Enlil]

OK, after reading through the range and cover rules, I have a new idea.

Much like Range and Cover, you choose whether to use Speed or Pilot.

At Artillery and Extreme range, Speed is generally dominant (in an area filled with small islands or wreckage, it might not be) - if the test is Speed vrs Pilot, the Speed exponent becomes the starting obstacle (+ bonus dice) for the ship using Pilot.

At Optimal and Close, Pilot is generally dominant - if the test is Speed vrs Pilot, the Pilot exponent becomes the starting obstacle (+ bonus dice) for the ship using Speed.

Bonus dice for Speed:
Better Pilot +1d
Able to sail closer to the wind +1d
Linked Command test +1d
Linked Rigging Test +1d

Bonus dice for Pilot
Better Speed +1d
Able to sail closer to the wind +1d
Linked Command test +1d
Linked Rigging Test +1d


In addition, I was thinking that to make different weapons add together better, the obstacle penalty only applies if the Lead character is using the weapon in question. If Command is used, then no obstacle should accrue.

Instead, Artillery should have a number of bonus dice at various ranges.

Bows and Crossbows should get 1 die for every two bowman at extreme, and 1 die per bowman at optimal or close.

Thrown Weapon get 1 die for every two throwers at optimal, and 1 die per thrower at close.

I have to muddle with the obstacle to make sure people can hit, too . . .

Christian

[luke]

christian,

what's up with the obstacles to hit? i'm confused by your comments.

you should stick to the obstacles in the book. taller ships -- or ships even rigged with battlements -- provide better cover. otherwise, obstacles are done by range.

-L

[Enlil]

Yeah, the obstacles to hit are probably screwed up (and far too high to actually damage anything). They are vaguely based off the old obstacles for missile combat in classic. I have to adjust it with the new range and cover obstacles in mind.

The main thought was that, say you have 5 marines with bows and 5 marines with javelines. Obviously, having the 5 marines with javelins should add to the combat effectiveness of an attack. If you add 1 die per javelin, but at +3 ob, you are more often than not decreasing your combat effectiveness. If you add +1 per two javelineers at optimal missile range, you always add to combat effectiveness.

Obstacle should probably be around:
2 for a ship with low sides
3 for a un-castled ship with high sides
4 for a ship with castles
+1 ob for the ship with higher sides/castles
+2 ob if the enemy crew is hiding
+1 ob if the primary attacker is at long range (bow at extreme, thrown at optimal, artillery at close)
+1 ob if range changed this volley

That should match the obstacles in revised considerably better (and allow hit to happen).

Christian

[Enlil]

I think I see the problem - the dice and obstacles in the post you said seemed strange are for the positioning tests. I wanted to make it so that Ships Speed and Pilot were both important. That was then mixed up with the bit about getting bonus dice from bowman/throwers, which had nothing to do with the stuff above it. Coulda been a lot clearer.

Christian