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luke
07-22-2003, 08:14 PM
I am the first to admit that I have very little experience in doing what my game so exhaustively describes. I have never milled lumber, cast a spell or wielded a weapon with the intent to kill. The weapons I've wielded have all been for demonstration purposes only and the few scuffles I've been in have shown me that I decidedly do not have the will to kill another person.

That said, how do I (or any other game designer, for that matter) come up with the representative mechanics for the above incidents (and the many more that I've left out of my example)?

Research of course. Research in the form of fiction--literary, pulpy, visual and even auditory-- game mechanical research, and, lastly, nonfiction/scholarly research.

The fictive and game mechanical research have, of course, been very inspiring and influential in the overall design and feel of The Burning Wheel. However, all good fiction has its roots in the "real world" and so does this game. The "scholarly" (and I use that term loosely) research I've done is the underpinning of this game. I've always tried to ensure that a player could logically perform all mundane and simple actions before I moved on to the crazy stuff like magic or elves or cannons.

One of the great strengths of the nonfictive research is that it demystifies and codifies the fictive side. Once you start reading about rebellions in China throughout the 19th century you start to see contemporary kung fu movies in a whole different light. Performances or actions that are glorified in fiction tend have rather humble roots.

Thus Burning Wheel combat. At its most basic, it is very dirty, very ugly and very tough. I am a self-professed lover of comicbooks, and kung fu moves so how did it get this way? Obviously, I mitigated these influences with research.

Many folks who have actual experience in the matters I describe have commented on the systems presented. Some have said, "that's not how it happens." An interesting comment. Since most of what is represented in the game has little to do with rolling dice and comparing numbers. I submit that these folks are too close to their own skills and experiences, or, alternately, too in love with the fictive resources to see clearly what is going on in Burning Wheel.

I'll admit, the system is very "gamey"-- it is a game played between two opponents within the superstructure of the game. But this is largely representative of the phenomena it emulates: adversarial close combat with the intent to kill tends to take its participants out of time and mental space and place them, momentarily, elsewhere.

In The Face of Battle, John Keegan states: "Warfare in the age of edged weapons required yet another vanished military quality, perhaps even more crucial to skill-at-arms than agility or good reflexes: a sort of empathy with one's adversary, lending the ability to anticipate his actions and forestall his blows...."

This mental state precisely what I have sought to emulate. To allow players to place themselves in the scenario and think their way through. To be the "adversary" and "anticipate actions." In fact, I went so far as to force players to think their way through a life-and-death struggle, rather than just to roll dice and gloss over the contest.

"Combat" in roleplay is often thought of as inconvenient or overlong--even I dread it sometimes. But what does that tell us about the scenario we are playing in if the life and death struggle has no meaning or threat? I think then that such struggles should not be there. Another situation perhaps would better suit the story or the players. If it is not going to be tense and harrowing, if death is not an unthinkable, ultimate consequence, then combat has no place at the table.

There are many many other scenarios to roleplay out that are equally entertaining and fulfilling--perhaps more so. When combat does come, it should be every bit as intense and fear-inducing as a near death experience should be--and just like those experiences players should at least have the opportunity to think their way through it. Even if their intentions sometimes fall short of preserving their lives...

-abzu

eruditus
09-04-2003, 04:25 PM
I have many discussions about this with gaming associates.

There are two camps and I am generally split over...

one says "let the dice roll" - meaning whatever happens happens.
the other says "death in a game is a game breaker" - "if the Mirkwood spiders killed Bilbo early in the book there would be no story" they argue.

I find it difficult to argue with either.

I prefer deadly systems and death spirals. I prefer a system that has bite and that the player fear for their character's lives.

First off it allows players to act more realistically within the rules. A crossbow bolt will kill you. A knife to your throat will ruin your day (even if it won't kill you outright :lol:

So how to face the story. Should all plot be fluid and planless? SHould one do nothing to prepare for subplots, future villains and such since life if so uncertain?

Its easy - two things alter the deadly nature of combat:
Artha and GM screens
If the GM doesn't want you to die then you don't die. BTW in order for this to work out realistically for you never be a d*ck and insist that the GM roll in front of you. You will ONLY suffer for it.

luke
09-04-2003, 08:36 PM
of course, any good GM will tell you that a game must be a mix of both dice and story.

But what I am getting at is that survival is uncertain, but the method of survival is largely up to the player.

the other says "death in a game is a game breaker" - "if the Mirkwood spiders killed Bilbo early in the book there would be no story" they argue.
This statement is misleading on a number of levels. First, who's to say where the story would have gone if Bilbo had died? It certainly wouldn't have been the same conclusion as JRR's books, but we are playing games with uncertain outcomes, not writing novels.

That leads us to the question of "why didn't Bilbo die in Mirkwood?" Did the GM, sigh and fudge dice so he could live? NO! Bilbo's player developed a sound strategy and clever plan. He stuck to it and survived the encounter. Did he go charging into the spider nest whining, "I have an elven sword and elven chainmail. I fight! I fight!" And that player would have been thoroughly pissed off when his character was recaptured or killed when that "strategy" didn't work.

He used his other strengths --his stealth and wit-- to lead the spiders on a chase and bested them through cleverness. I am certain that the GM was at first dismayed, but ultimately delighted by this scenario. (Dismayed because GM's hate clever PCs ;) ) And I am sure Bilbo was rewarded during and after that scenario for carrying the day.

His fate, though, was not certain or predetermined at the outset of the encounter. Allowing PCs to live because "death is a game-breaker" is just another form of railroading. Artificially forcing a game in a direction that it shouldn't otherwise go in. And, in my opinion, how boring! Risking life and limb is the nature of the game, if there is no actual risk involved -- if you know you are going to win -- it's really not fun at all.

Durgil
09-05-2003, 09:39 AM
All I know is that Smaug's resting place in Erabor was probably littered with the bones of adventurers and thieves that had made some decidingly BAD choices. Bilbo just happen to listen better to the GM (aka. Gandalf :D ). That said, I guess I'm firmly in the camp of letting the dice do the talking. You might have a few problems at first with players that are thinking that this is the same old song and dance, but in the long term, everyone will end up with a much more satisfying experience IMO.

As for the preceived doubting of your combat system, I place A LOT of stock in what Jake Norwood from TRoS has to say when it comes to weapon fighting, and I got the impression at GenCon this past July and from his own comments on that Forum that he really likes your game system. I sent a pm to Claymore telling him that his adaption of TRoS's combat system to BW has turned out a lot better than my attempt at the reverse, and I am totally now on board with BW now.

I think your game really kicks ass, abzu. Keep up the great work!

Durgil
09-05-2003, 09:53 AM
I forgot to mention in my last post, that if player's want action without the possibility of their characters dying, maybe we should look at developing sophisticated rules on debate and oration, like in The Dying Earth Roleplaying Game (http://www.pelgranepress.com/). It could be called the Burning Debate. :roll:

eruditus
09-05-2003, 10:28 AM
(Wish I had one of the Wheels cool little Demon-dudes when I wear this hat and take whatever side everyone else isn't ;) )

Although I see your point, what if the GM DID have to fudge rolls in Mirkwood. Its easy to say "yeah, Bilbo was crafty." That's certainly what the legends say. But what if Biblo had made all those plans and flubbed his rolls or the spiders rolled really, really well? No more Biblo. No more party. Now the Hobbit is written about Spungy and Wiglee Took reminissing about the silly and unfortunate Baggins.

One could say that the story would be ruined and Pete Jackson would be religated to bad B-movies.

And what about fate? What about prophecies and story hooks? Mildred the Smithy's wife being kidnapped may not have as much draw to the rest of the party once the adventuring Smithy gets gacked by a wandering goblin with dice that like him.

Randomness and danger are fine concepts when they work for you. Otherwise they can leave a campaign flat and unfulfilling.

Although I may not agree with the extremes of this arguement it certainly has some merit. I am a GM that is interested in drama and plot and before the Wheel PC died when I and the player said they died (unless the player was a dullard).

However, it is important to note, it also depends on the expectations of players and GMs. When I took on the Wheel I now tell everyone "Someone IS going to die! Be prepared." No doubt this adds an edge to a campaign. However, if it is not in the players and GMs expectations then that lethality has no place at the table. Lets face it, it is rare that the protagonist dies in any story. Some instances where it happens it really lends itself to the plot (Boromir dying is a great example - although that was obviously a planned death in its grand and heroic fashion ;)

In BW thus far I have yet to have to fudge rolls and there have been a few very close calls. And I have not been terribly strict about the Midi that a PC has been saddling almost from the start of their current adventure. Yet I can honestly say that when death does occur my players are ready and they have Artha to stave the event (many have even put aside the 2 for Will to Live and do not count it toward their Artha pool totals :) And when the time arises, when that random arrow of some NPC threatens to extinguish my carefully written plot you can be certain (unless some lesson needs to be learned) that DOF won't be a 6 ;)

Henri
03-18-2004, 03:36 PM
Has anyone read The Song of Ice and Fire by George R. Martin?
I read them last fall and ever since have been wanting to get back into fantasy rpgs (which is one reason I picked up BW). These books are much grittier than any other fantasy that I personally have read. Main characters die all the time, and often unpredictably. At first I was really taken aback, because I wasn't used to this in fantasy. We are used to our fictional heros having a magical glow that allows them to survive anything. In order to keep the number of main characters stable, he then has to add more periodically. Sometimes it is a minor character who comes to the foreground, or it is a brand new character. The thing that I really like about it is that it keeps you on your feet as a reader. When your favorite hero is in danger, you can't feel comfortable knowing that they will get through somehow and that it will all work out. Instead, you're really on the edge of your seat with suspense.

I think the analogy to an rpg is pretty direct. If you kill off a player character, let the player make a new one. If it works, you could let him take over an NPC (minor character comming to the foreground). Or make a brand new character and introduce it. Either way, next time his character is in danger, you can bet that the player is not going to be complacent. He will be in even more suspense than I was reading SIF. I used to be much more of the wimpy-gm don't let the players die school because I thought that it was better for the story. Now I think the opposite. The story benefits from the characters really being at risk. Also, its more realistic. In real life, sometimes death is random and senseless.

Oh, in my last game (Werewolf) one of the player characters eventually managed to win the respect and friendship of an antagonistic npc sept-mate. Then he (the npc) went and got himself killed fighting to save her (the pc). It was definately the most poignant moment of the campaign. Later, when the player character was killed in an earthquake caused by an enemy mage, it seemed anticlimactic in comparison. So if you want to introduce real suspense and risk but you don't want to kill the player characters, you could put them in a situation where an npc that they care about is in mortal danger and their actions will determine his or her fate. But the danger to the npc has to be real AND they have to have a reason to care about the npc. Otherwise they will be like, "Oh look, little Timmy is gonna get eaten by the troll... again. My character goes and washes his/her hair."