Introducing BITs to other systems

[jc_madden]

Introducing BITs to other systems:

Sadly I didn't take very good notes in this session so most of this is from memory.

The session start was marked by the very usual explanations of "No that's not a belief that's an instinct and no that's not an instinct that's a belief, and no that's not either that's just cheese"...

The group consisted of four players:


Phil: An errant ninja torn between a life of good or evil.
Rich: A mounted warrior who's primary concern was acting chivalrous and generally doing deeds of derring-do
Mike: A pious elven swordsman (who didn't end up acting very religous which I pointed out to him, he's a very new roleplayer so i'm giving him tips to point him in the right directions. for being so new to the hobby he's actually doing quite well).
Dan: A dwarven wizard who cared more for books and learning than people.

Since I was converting a little I just let players pick up to 3 traits that could describe their characters beit a physical or mental descriptor or a knack with a certain skill or talent (ie Call-ons).

After discussing a little we decided (I was starting them all off with a bit of past experiences) that they all knew eachother and that everyone except Phil's character had been together for most of their adventuring careers. Phil's character had some pretty interesting beliefs mostly about doing for himself and such so I knew he was going to be a catalyst.

I ended up running the adventure I was discussing here (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1141). I was careful to avoid railroading them and basically set up the scene with imput from the players. I felt they all played to the roles they'd defined pretty well and of course when they came upon the undead gaurdian of the sceptre he asked them who among them was worthy of carrying it's burden. The ninja gave the others a good 6 seconds to speak up and when no one did he reached for it yelling "ME!!!!!" The dwarven wizard asked him if he could examine it but the Ninja felt compelled to hold on to it. When asked if he was being FORCED into holding on to it he mearly stated that he didn't wish to let it go and as the gaurdian had said it was his burden to bare. Begrudgingly the group decided on what to do next as it seemed that a powerful horde of orcs was on the move appearanlty led by an enigmantic dark knight who had sworn to claim the sceptre for himself for reasons unknown (but worshiping the god of destruction it could only be for ill). Meanwhile a seperate conversations was being played out between the ninja and the burden he now bore. Amidst an argument phil blurted out, "Oh I wish we were already in Greyhawk so we could better protect this thing." *Poof*

They were in Greyhawk and in the middle of an important temple no less, guards where on the way and the other party members all looked to the ninja astonished and battering him with questions, unable to take the pressure he VANISHED. The party waited a day and he finaly returned and agreed that after wrestling with his own demons that he was willing to rid himself of the burden. The ritual was not easy and it took the assistance of several powerful priests and sorcerers to rid him of the ancient evil (and not on the first try). At that point the Ninja character removed his face mask as he had vowed to only remove it when he deemed himself a man. At this point one of the mages told them that they had a job to do as a horde of orcs were on their way to a town they swore to protect. They were whisked away and that is where we stopped for the evening.

Phils was the big player for the night both causing the most turmoil but also moving things along, also he wrestled with the most demons as well as acting out many of his beliefs and insticts. At the end of it I pointed out the good and the bad and awarded XP along with explanations of who got what and why.

Next week it was back to Phils regular game but this time he wanted us to add BITS to our character sheets....

edited for grammar and spelling erros

[jc_madden]

I was in a hurry when I typed this up so I left out some of the details of how the adventure went and really just got to the meaty parts where I felt all the beliefs and instincts came in to play. I'll see if I can get the players to give me a copy of them so I can post them here. For those interested here is a more lengthy account of how it all went down:

With this being a pickup adventure for just the five of use while one of our main players was out of town I concocted a quick little scenario set in the realm of Greyhawk D20. (my group so far won't play anything else as most of you know) We decide that level 5 was a good place to start since around 4-5 is when you really start coming into your own character and role wise (which I've never liked about the system). I instructed everyone to come up with BITs before the game started and everyone did an okay job of communicating to each other what they wanted. (this should have been done in a session all by itself but we were short on time so that's the way it had to be).

In a situations set up for convenience I described the group as being recently asked to drop off some mail to a city some 130 miles north, we began at the halfway mark between the two on a dirt road with deep wagon ruts. We started the game in late April and of course they were caught in a torrential down poor so they decided to seek shelter. After traveling for about a half hour they started to see the shapes of low stone buildings dotting the road ahead. Obscured by the rain they could only make out that they were stone with thatched roofs and one of the buildings near the center of the town was well lit with a fire going. They headed there and as they passed the center of town hey passed a curious statue. Made of sandstone it had not fared well over the ages, four figures stood triumphantly together arms held high they're features obscured by wear, beneath the statue on a granite base bore a corroded copper placard that read "In honor of the nameless heroes, be they never forgotten." At this point Phil did a very obvious head count (knucklehead).

They saw the building ahead bore a sign that said "Malenfant Public House" with the image of a white stag on a black shield (Lu Cerf Blanc is a prominent organization in a lot of my games a lot like Forgotten Realms Harpers for those who are familiar) although they weren't relevant in this adventure I like to throw in little things like that for flavor and as a nod to those who've played my games before. (As a matter of fact Malenfant mean "Bad Child" in french and is also a common hot spot in my games)

Okay so they enter and relax with a cup of hot spiced mead and dry their stockings by the fire. It's not long before the low load tout of a warning horn is heard. The bartender pulls out a footlocker from behind the bar and begins issuing rusty swords to the other patrons. When queried he tells the players that it's an orc attack, lately something seems to have stirred them up but he'll tell them more after the fighting's done. They of course offer to help.

Two orcs bearing lances and wicked falcions besiege the town and manage to slay one towns person and severely injure 3 others before the party can descend upon them. They badly wound one who bolts off to the east while the other bolts west. The knight spurs his mount westward and ends up landing a fatal blow to the orc. The dwarven wizard is a little miffed as they wanted one alive. A quick examination of the body reveals a symbol of a destructive god though it's unusual for the orcs to worship him (they have thier own god). After the fight the elf tends the wounded and they all carry the bodies back towards town square. They meet up with the bartender who happens to be the appointed official of the town. He asks if they would help investigate what's gotten the orcs rile up as the attacks are becoming more and more deadly and have been steadily increasing in frequency. Most agree though the ninja is reluctant. The barkeep offers a small 9" statue of an angel that appears to be made of solid platinum as a reward. The ninja quickly agrees to help "for the good of the town" and asks how much the statue is worth. The barkeep gets a little upset and says that a knight doesn't appraise a prize won in a joust. Our knightly player's eyebrows raise.

Just then an aged man bearing the trappings of a clergyman enters the pub and explains that he has had a horrible vision. That of a black armored figure leaving a cave and arriving in town with a small army of orcs. He explains that the cave is nearby and contains an ancient beast who has the gift of the oracle. Whatever the black clad figure sought he must have found the answer for most do not leave the cave alive. The group decides that they'd better go to the oracle and find out what's so important in Malenfant.

They go and after bypassing a cleverly place trap at the cave's mouth meet an elderly Sphinx. The Sphinx seems to recognize the group and tells them that they too have a riddle of their own for they were much older when last he saw them but that is impossible as they should all be dead. Many frowns from the party and one speaks up and says that's impossible for they have never met a Sphinx before. The Sphinx apologizes for his failing memory and blames his old age. (Rich says something about time travel /ooc at this point and I almost smack him with my dice bag)

He clears his throat and informs them that they may ask him any question they wish, the more difficult the question the more difficult the riddle AND the more severe the punishment for failure. They ask what the dark figure was after and are posed a riddle which they figure out fairly quickly and the Sphinx tells them that he seeks the Scepter of Shom-Kaprah. They answer another riddle to find out what the Scepter does and he informs them that it's an ancient artifact that is very evil and can grant wishes. They then ask where it is (which is a tough question) I pose a very hard riddle to them and they spend about an hour and a half real time puzzling it out. They fail a couple times (and lose a bunch of stat points for it) and finally give up. The elf just HAS to know the answer (which was more in character for the player than the character and SHOULD have been in character for the dwarf wizard who ended up being a little more "no nonsense" than his BITs would have suggested) and agrees to go on an errand for the Sphinx just to hear it. The Sphinx accepts and place's a geas on them all to go kill an ogre that shat on his bushes recently. They shuffle on over to the ogre's cave and the knight calls him out to honorable combat and he accepts! The ogre begins to slaver at the mouth and turn red (uh-oh a RAGING ogre). They all duke it out and the ninja delivers a devistating blow to the ogre but pays for it by being beaten to near death by the ogre's iron-shod tree trunk of a club. A finally blow from the knight and the ogre is downed but one of them is unconscious and the knight is badly wounded. The elf manages to bring the ninja to consciousness and heal up the knight. The fight was a lot tougher than it normally would be because of all the stat damage the group took from failing the riddles. They go back to the Sphinx with the head to prove that the dead is done. Satisfied he reveals the answer and they decide not to try and risk another riddle that hard and head back to town. They end up getting the rest of their wounds tended and telling the priest about the scepter. They rest over night and with the help of a little magic are good as new. That morning the priest has good news, seems the town was ravages some 500 years ago by a magical plague caused by the Scepter and was stopped by the nameless heroes depicted on the statue. The town was burned nearly to the ground and the Scepter was hidden by the adventures in the ruins of the old church upon which the NEW temple was built. They began excavating at once!

After a days worth of hard labor they finally made it into the catacombs and discovered an undead guardian holding the Scepter. The rest of the story plays out as above...

[luke]

hi jc,

can you tell us what some of the beliefs were? and can you describe an instance where you introduced complications into the game that conflicted with beliefs? can you tell us how you rewarded the players involved in those conflicts?

-L

[Yagathai]

I convinced my D&DfD GM to institute BITs in our game. Thus far, they've only come into play, mechanically speaking, once -- but they certainly helped each player define his or her characters.

[luke]

I convinced my D&DfD GM to institute BITs in our game. Thus far, they've only come into play, mechanically speaking, once -- but they certainly helped each player define his or her characters.

See, that's just it. The GM's not doing his job if they've only come into play once. I can go to an improv class and write one sentence about my character and make everyone riff off it. In a game, I want fucking rewards! I want money when I cross GO.

-L

[Yagathai]

Well, I should re-phrase. One of my character's instincts is "Always attack the strongest foe". So whenever we get into combat, that always comes into play. Stuff like that happens all the time.

It's just that we've only had to pause for a moment and say "wait, my Instinct kicks in!" in order to save a player from an arrow trap or something the once.

[jc_madden]

hi jc,

can you tell us what some of the beliefs were?



I'll see if I can get the players to give me a copy of them so I can post them here.

Uh-huh



and can you describe an instance where you introduced complications into the game that conflicted with beliefs? can you tell us how you rewarded the players involved in those conflicts?

-L

I can elaborate more once I have everyone's specific beliefs but basically a lot of what's written above were situations created with the express purpose of complicating things. Tempting phil's character with the scepter for one, the scepter further tempting him in psychic conversation. In the first instance he took the bait and in the second he resisted. Further problems arose for him when he was in Greyhawk and was resisting the Scepter's influence, he eventually succeeded and fufilled his second belief which involved him becoming a man by removing his face mask.

Mike's character had some iffy belief's mostly having to do with his religion. He was a cleric type but not a "bible thumper" as such his beliefs were his own and he didn't seek to share them or convert others. He did a good job of roleplaying that out when he had a chance to visit the temple of his diety in Greyhawk and choose not to citing he wasn't a temple person (for those familar with D20 he was a "Favored Soul" a cleric like warrior with an intimate connection with his diety rather than a practiced dogma).

Rich's character after hearing that the old barkeep was an ex-knight was loath to accept his prize as payment for helping the town, the other players however convinced him to acquiese. He COULD have cause some turmoil there but opted not to so he didn't earn any EXP there. He was also presented with some oportunites against the orcs who at one point they had seperated the party on one and the townsfolk on the other. The towns person who died was basically picked up in the jaws of the great wolf and had his neck stapped and tossed in the direction of the players. Rich chose to stick with the one he was on rather than divert and avenge the fallen townsperson so no EXP for him there either.

Dan's play was most disapointing as he had a few interesting beliefs though I don't think he finished all of them which is why he earned the least XP. He as a player also didn't enjoy the riddle section of the adventure but his character I felt really would have.

End of night EXP points were the reward and as I stated I explained to each of them what earned them what but basically here's how it broke down:

Every time a character's belief's created conflict or moved the story along they were awarded 1000xp, everytime an instinct saved a character from peril or helped them in a given situation it earned them 100xp, everytime a person role-played a non-game effecting trait it earned them 50xp. Belief's could only earn 1000xp each per session, instincts and traits had no limit. As such Phil earned 2950, Rich Earned 2500, Mike earned 2000, and Dan earned 1650 (I THINK these numbers are correct). I threw in some bonus xp for various reasons (comedic releif, best dramitic moment, etc) that I added into those totals.

I'll post more when I get the info from the others. Personally I think I probably didn't do as good a job as I could have explaining how the BITs worked and how the EXP was going to based on it otherwise I think Dan would have gotten more into it, but then he's always been more about "the numbers" when it comes to our games (his last character was a half-ogre wielding an over sized sword capable of taking out swathes of mooks in a single swing). I also think I could have done better to challenge the characters by posing them with more situations that made them question/use their beliefs. This was before I read the chapter on the Beliefs in the revised book which I think has some great tips for doing so as well as clairifying their role in the game.

[luke]

I also think I could have done better to challenge the characters by posing them with more situations that made them question/use their beliefs.

Based on what you said here, it sounds like a very good start. You're starting to get them involved in how the game plot is shaped by their priorities. You'll get the hang of using those priorities and rewards to hang them up by their ears as you go along.

Next time you play, try giving out rewards on the spot as the conflicts come into play. AND, when you see a potential conflict, goad the player! Dangle that reward in front his nose. It's still his choice whether to go for it or not, but it's your job as GM to let him know what's at stake (in case he's forgotten).

-L

[jc_madden]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I don't know why but something about handing out rewards mid-session as well as dangling the opportunity for those rewards goes against all that's gygaxian that's been driven into my head. Well I guess I do know why and that sort of explains it. No offense to Gary I used to be pretty active on his Lejendary Adventure boards and he and I always got along great together but my tastes for what I want from an RPG have been starting to shift from ye old standard of: "This is MY world this is the way I want it and YOU have to figure it all out with no help from me. And if you fail I'll chuckle from behind my mighty DM screen at your failure and toss dice at you!" to "This is OUR game and OUR world what do WE want out of it and what can I do to make it the best experience for ALL of us?" My players just about freaked out last session I ran when I DIDN'T use a GM screen and I rolled everything right in front of them. But I think they enjoyed it and I think they're comming along. At the end of the last session Phil GM'd I posed this to the group. Hey guys, next time we start a campaign lets all DISCUSS what we want and what our character's goals are and make those descisions as a cohesive group. About everyone said YEAH except for the one nay-sayer old school player who hates every one of my ideas anyway.

[luke]

I know it sounds so hippy dippy, but it's really the right thing to do.

And it's NOT like BW advocates sidelining the GM's role. No way, it's just that we want all those complications, twists and boots to the head to be driven by the decisions we all agreed upon at the outset.

For our various groups, we've found it just makes tighter, more exciting games. For me as a game designer, I saw that moment to moment rewards via those priorities helped push the game's action in directions that I thought were really cool.

Anyway, like I said, it sounds like you're off to a great start, man! Maybe we'll work on BW d20 some day, eh? :wink: :roll:

[Thor]

Besides, it helps to reinforce the behavior (to be all Pavlovian about it). When they do something that goes along with their BITs and they get rewarded right then and there, it really helps everyone at the table to see that playing them will lead to rewards.

[jc_madden]

For our various groups, we've found it just makes tighter, more exciting games. For me as a game designer, I saw that moment to moment rewards via those priorities helped push the game's action in directions that I thought were really cool.



My group seems to be shaping up that way too, I hope it keeps going.



Anyway, like I said, it sounds like you're off to a great start, man! Maybe we'll work on BW d20 some day, eh? :wink: :roll:

Ha! Believe you me, the thought has crossed my mind. I'm currently freelancing for a game company (well sort, I'm working for a percentage of sale rather than a flat rate but that's just a detail) and that's something I definately wouldn't mind working on.

Thor:
I totally agree with you there buddy. (I'm a big fan of Pavlov's work on behavior) That's one thing that video games have a leg up on PnP RPGs for a while is that instant reward/gratitude. BW seems to duplicate that with advancement through tests (which the revision clarified for me!). It's just that D20 especially advancment is so damn deliniated that a mid adventure level up A) takes time out of your game and B) then immediately alters the power level of the PC dramatically.

[luke]

It's just that D20 especially advancment is so damn deliniated that a mid adventure level up A) takes time out of your game and B) then immediately alters the power level of the PC dramatically.

Ah hah! Now we get to the core of it. Rewarding them isn't actually rewarding in play. Heh.

But reread B again, too. You just said, to my eyes, you want to reward them, but you don't want them to reap those rewards. Interesting.

I'll agree with you though, leveling up might be problematic. Is there any way to gradate advancement into quarters or thirds? In other words, you need 3000 XP to level up, and get 1000 during the adventure. The player then gets to add a new feat or whatever -- some part of what he would get if he fully leveled.

Put the burden of the gradation on the players. Have them divide their levels into feats/powerz/hit points etc that they want in the order they want them before the adventure starts. Once the XP marks are hit, they gain the appropriate power/feat/whatever.

-L

PS I can't believe you got me talking d20 with you.

PPS If you use any BW-inspired material, please credit the source. I'd appreciate it.

[jc_madden]

Ah hah! Now we get to the core of it. Rewarding them isn't actually rewarding in play. Heh.


Exactly.


But reread B again, too. You just said, to my eyes, you want to reward them, but you don't want them to reap those rewards. Interesting.

No, no, and no. It's not ME it's the way D20 is set up. In BW your character rings a mighty blow against an orc (and as such meets his final test for advancement) and his B3 Sword skill become B4 and we move on. In D20 a 5th level fighter (under my BITs reward system, or the normal system if you decided to do XP per task rather than end of night) kills the orc he's been after and gets enough XP to level up, now he gets an average of +7HP, at least 2 more skill points, a +1 to attack, and +1 to all of his save, and TWO feats (1 for lvl 6 and 1 for fighter bonus). That in D20 is a HUGE power jump but that's just the way the game works and I HATE it. BW advancement (and others) is ORGANIC, D20 is MECHANIC.




Put the burden of the gradation on the players. Have them divide their levels into feats/powerz/hit points etc that they want in the order they want them before the adventure starts. Once the XP marks are hit, they gain the appropriate power/feat/whatever.

Eh maybe that's probably a bit more of a headache than I want to deal with in D20. I don't know, if I didn't do it that way I'd have to take on the burden because I doubt I could trust the players to do it fairly.



PS I can't believe you got me talking d20 with you.

PPS If you use any BW-inspired material, please credit the source. I'd appreciate it.

I RULE. And of course man, I'd would go a step further and consult with you before I EVER even THOUGHT about using your good name or your fine product.