Endless battle and questions thereof

[Enlil]

I ran through the Fight! rules with a friend of mine tonight. Theodosius the dismounted cavalryman against Geordon the sergent. Theodosius used sword and shield, wore full chain, and started in agressive stance, due to instincts. Geordon wore plated leather with half leggings and used a spear.

The first problem came with the initial positioning test. I could not figure out what happened in the case of a tie. Eventually we rolled again. About 5 times. What is supposed to happen (perhaps both in optimum?)

Things went pretty well for a while, with charges, attempted locks, great strikes and such. But due to the dice being utter traitors :evil: , things really bogged down once both characters took a superficial. We were rolling 7 die unopposed great strikes, and never came up with more than 3 or 4 sucesses! Locks and other cleverness were defeated by odd turns of the positioning dice! 30 armor and shield dice were rolled by Theodosius, and not one came up a one :evil: :? !

We tried nearly every move, so things went well that way. But we stopped after about an hour after the latest potential superficial (we never managed to roll any wound that COULD have been worse than that - damned traitorous dice :evil: ), with a VA of 1 versus 2 dice of armor, was once again stopped by stupidly lucky armor dice.

Regardless of how it sounds, it was a lot of fun, just the dice were traitorous and against anyone dying that day. People in my previous demo, which left out positioning, stances, and grapples didn't have nearly this much trouble hurting each other . . .

So on to questions -
What happens on a tie in the initial positioning test?

If you counterstrike while out of range, does the riposte portion simply fail, or is the opponent considered to move into range to hit you?

Can you do some form of Block and Greatstrike? And do you simply script a strike, or do you do a "Physical Action: Block and Strike" on the new school scripting sheets?

Christian

[Ozark Tim]

I tried out the new Fight! rules tonight, too, and had the same problem with the initial positioning test. We decided that the tie meant that the two antagonists were maintaining their positions as the book said, but they just happened to be out of striking range.

The practice fight is sending me back to the books to look up a dozen different things.

[Mickeroo]

Yeah, in the Poisionous Ambition demo I ran, the entire climactic battle (with about 8 combatants) took no more then 4 volleys and I didn't use positioning tests, stances, or grapples either. Everyone just died. :twisted: I think it makes sense though. It's more realistic with these elements and it should take longer then if two combatants just blindly rush at each other striking every action.

[luke]

oh yeah. starting positioning test is like any other. determine intent, but start everyone outside. If it's a tie, it defaults to a Maintain, so combat begins Outside Striking Distance for both combattants.

Once the volley begins, you can begin using dirty tricks and stuff to aid in positioning -- picking up a rock to get the longest weapon advantage or using a well-timed Let 'em Come.

-L

[Sentack]

I was the friend that came over to play with Enlil, man that fight really drained my will over time.

We honestly did have some really wierd rolls going on that night. I felt my Sword and Board guy got a slight advantage after knocking 2 dice off Enlil's characters helm in comparison to nothing from my guy, but in the end, when he STILL bocked the attack with those two dice, I just had to give up then.

I must say, it was a very stressfull fight over all. Lately we've been just playing some old 2nd Edition DnD and the combat there is very relaxed because you can just blame things on bad rolls. Here, my lack of strategy just comes shining thru without question. Luckly, I did okay but that's because the diced didn't want eather of us hitting!

In other news, One question that did come up and hasn't been answered yet is. "If you are out of range, but your foe is not, let's say. So he attacks but you COUNTER Strike. Do you still get the strike in that one time even if normaly aren't in range. If so, Any penalties? What if your in Lounge range?"

Feedback, feedback, we need feedback!

Tony

[luke]

let's go over this in detail.

post the characters -- their skills and stats. We need to know what numbers we were dealing with.

Sentack, you noted correctly that strategy is all. Did you vary your strategy? Armor bashing is never the wise course. But did you try a Great Strike? Did you try Disarming him? Did you try Binding? Did you try Locking? There's WAY more than one way to win a fight in Burning Wheel.

Now I admit, the kind of fight you guys were talking about occasionally does happen, but it's an absolute rarity in my experience.

If you are out of range, but your foe is not, let's say. So he attacks but you COUNTER Strike.

As for your Counterstrike question, you may Block, but you may not Strike.

-L

[Kublai]

You can't strike if you are out of range, can you? Therefore, you can't use the strike half of the counter-strike if you are out of range. Use common sense here. If a guy with a 10 foot spear strikes me, I can block his spear tip, but there is no way I can hit him with my 3 foot sword.

[Kublai]

Using a Great Strike and choosing to up the VA instead of Power is the best choice when it comes to straight armor bashing. With a sword, that's gonna result in an Ob3 armor test! Not easy at all!

[luke]

Using a Great Strike and choosing to up the VA instead of Power is the best choice when it comes to straight armor bashing. With a sword, that's gonna result in an Ob3 armor test! Not easy at all!

:oops:
Swords don't have VA any longer. At least not basic ones. It'd be an Ob 2 test.

-L

[Kublai]

STUPID REVISION! :x

[Thor Olavsrud]

STUPID REVISION! :x

:roll:

If you want to take out armor, get a weapon designed to take out armor, like a mace, ax, or lance!

[Enlil]

I think the main issue was hateful, evil dice. But here are the characters (they were built using classic, for a combat demo I did a couple of weeks ago):

Theosius, a Cavalryman
Lifepaths:
Born City, Guard, lead to Soldier, Cavalryman, Bannerman

Age: 20

Stats: Pe B4 Wi B3 Ag B6 Sp B6(5) Po B4 Fo B4

Attributes: Re: B5(4) Ste: B6 He: B4 MW: B10 Hesitation: 7

PTGS: Su:3 Li:5 Mi:7 Se:8 Tr:9 Mo:10

Skills:
Brawling B4, Riding B4, Conspicuous B3, Sword B4, Polearm B4, Shield Training, Armor Training, Mtd Combat Training, Intimidation B3, Herbalism B2, Drinking B2, Etiquette B2

Gear:
Full Chainmail Armor, Heater Shield, Sword, Polearm (he may have a horse, but the fight was dismounted . . .)

Weapon Stats + IMS:
Sword I:B4 M:B7 S:B10 Add 2 VA - WS S
He had a halberd, but didn't use it.

Contacts:
Lord Alphonse, his old cavalry leader

Beliefs:
Lords are our betters
The Kharazom are brave foes
The King is a wise and good lord

Instincts:
Always start fights in offensive stance
Stay close to my lord
Put myself between my lord and harm


And the other combatant:

Geordon, a Sergent
Lifepaths:
Born Village, lead to soldier, Runner, Foot Soldier, Sergent

Age: 20

Stats: Pe: B4 Wi: B4 Ag: B4 Sp: B4 Po: B5 Fo: B5

Attributes: Re:4 Ste:B6 He:B5 MW:B11 Hesitation:6

PTGS: Su:B3 Li:B6 Mi:B8 Se:B9 Tr:B10 Mo:B11

Skills:
Inconspicuous B2, Spear B4, Sword B4, Shield Training, Brawling B3, Command B2, Field Dressing B2, Foraging B2, Stealthy B2, Animal Husbandry B2, Climbing B2, Swimming B2

Gear:
Travel pack, clothing, Plated Leather, Sword, Spear, Heater Shield

Weapon Stats + IMS:
Spear I:B4 M:B7 S:B10 Add 2 VA 1 WS F
(He had a sword as well, but didn't use it)

Contacts:
Old captain, Father

Beliefs:
Protect my me
Officers are clueless
The Kharazom are scum

Instincts:
Duck for cover if shot at
Make sure everyone is along
Always wear armor on campaign


I either forgot to give them traits, or thought it would confuse people at the combat demo :oops: . Everyone has B4 skills 'cause that is the max eponent I'm letting people start combat skills at in my campaign.

Theosius used Sword and Shield, Geordon a Spear. I gave 'em both a FoRK from Brawling, for 5 dice each.

Tactics wise, Theosius did great strikes, a couple of charges, lots of block and strikes, and a push (along with avoids and blocks)

Geordon attempted locks quite a lot, did a couple of charges which got the +1 ob on next action, and did a bunch of great strikes and strikes.

We positioned quite a lot, we were in close (when Geordon was trying to lock) and Theosius was outside for a while.

As I said, the major problem was the dice - in the second half of the fight, I think that in the 5 or so great strikes Geordon (who I was playing) did, I NEVER rolled more than three successes while in Agressive Mode (7 dice). And no ones armor ever failed or broke in the second half of the fight, either. And that was a hell of a lot of dice.

Here are another couple of questions (and one old one):
Is Block and Strike scripted as a strike or a physical action on the new style script sheet?

I you script a block and strike from out of range, do you still get the block portion?

Can you use stance dice for positioning even if you are change stance that volley or have actions scripted that aren't effected by the stance (we had a switch from Defensive to Offensive, and a close in offensive with the volley actions being Lock)?

How is the use of stance dice for positioning declared? I figured if one combatant declared using them, everyone else could as well. More interestingly if one combatant declares a charge, does that get declared after a player has an option to use the stance dice? (in other words, does the combatant being charged know he is being charged when he chooses how to use his positioning dice)

Christian

[Yagathai]

STUPID REVISION! :x

Amen, brother.

[luke]

Is Block and Strike scripted as a strike or a physical action on the new style script sheet?

I you script a block and strike from out of range, do you still get the block portion?

Can you use stance dice for positioning even if you are change stance that volley or have actions scripted that aren't effected by the stance (we had a switch from Defensive to Offensive, and a close in offensive with the volley actions being Lock)?

How is the use of stance dice for positioning declared? I figured if one combatant declared using them, everyone else could as well. More interestingly if one combatant declares a charge, does that get declared after a player has an option to use the stance dice? (in other words, does the combatant being charged know he is being charged when he chooses how to use his positioning dice)

We just write Block and Strike as Strike on the script sheet. If you've got Shield Training and a Shield, all Strikes are essentially considered Block and Strike.

Block and Strike from out of range may still Block. Bottom of page 147: "may defend from opponent's advances with Block, Counterstrike and Avoid"

If you're changing stances in the volley, I wouldn't allow Stance Dice to be used for positioning. I can see arguments for the other side. If you wanted to allow it to go the other way, let the dice stay in play so long as they stay out of Neutral Stance.

Dice declaration comes as actions are announced. Once an action is announced, everyone knows what's up. So yeah, you can use your dice however you see fit.


As for the fight, my last questions are: how did you handle hit locations? were you two hammering away on the same spots like you should have been? Were you applying the clumsy weight penalties for the armored leggings?

I urge you and sentak to go another round. Switch characters and use that polearm!
-L

[Enlil]

We were applying the clumsy weight penalties - Geordon had half Plated Leather leggings (2D), for no penalty, and Theosius had full chain leggings, for -1D speed! That also reduced his Reflex from 5 to 4! Guess he decided he didn't want vulnerable (2D) legs. But I would've taken the higher reflex, anyway.

We hammered on the chest and head, mainly. Ideally, it all would've hit the head, but often, no one got enough successes to reposition to the head. I mean, I don't think we saw a SINGLE Mark hit rolling seven dice. And Theosius's chainmail simply refused to break. He didn't roll a single one on his armor or shield. And he only failed one Armor test against VA2 great strikes from the spear (out of 7 or 8).

I will be running more practice combats and finishing off character burning tonight.

Sorry this thing exploded - it was mainly supposed to be a rant on how evil and traitorous my dice were being. I haven't seen such bad rolling since the game I played of Torg, were generally the entire party rolled ones and disconnected at least once a fight (usually more).

Christian

[Kublai]

We were applying the clumsy weight penalties - Geordon had half Plated Leather leggings (2D), for no penalty, and Theosius had full chain leggings, for -1D speed! That also reduced his Reflex from 5 to 4! Guess he decided he didn't want vulnerable (2D) legs. But I would've taken the higher reflex, anyway.

A small thing, but I do believe penalties now only increase Obstacle. So any Positioning tests or Speed tests would be a +1 Ob when wearing leggings. Reflexes are no longer reduced!

Are they? :oops:

[Enlil]

According to Page 186, Plated Leather adds +1 ob to all speed tests, and metal legging give -1d to speed. You can reduce the plated leater to nothing, and the metal leggings are reduced to +1 ob if you half the armor dice.

Christian

[Kublai]

So much for consistency! :roll: