Concise LPs?

[Angaros]

Would it be possible to get a concise version of the LPs to show players (sometime in the future)? I'm talking about a list where only the LP name and leads are shown. Perhaps also it's time requirement (but preferrably in a shortened version, like short, medium and long). It would be a great handout to have during character creation and it would be easier to deal with players whose minmaxing instincts are strong. I'm sort of like that myself and I have some friends who I'd only do a disservice by showing all the numbers.

[Mickeroo]

You could alwyas create characters for the players. Just ask them for a concept and their BITs and go with that. I'd recommend this for 2 reasons: It's easier to incorporate GM made characters into your game idea and there's always the ability to min/max after chooising lifepaths, althought BW does punish for that sort of thing. "Sure you can have a w6 agility, but if you take a light wound, you're out."

[luke]

concise version of the LPs

not happening on my end.

perhaps there's another issue at stake here with your players, jocke? you really don't have to min max in BW to get screen time and have an enjoyable play experience
-L

[Viper]

I agree with Luke in that you shouldn't need this, but if you feel that strongly about it... just take a strip of white paper and cover up the numbered columns. Photocopy and voila. You have a numbers free handout of the lifepath pages.

takes a little work on your end, but it's not hard to do.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Hey Jocke,

In my experience, it's really, really hard to min-max in BW. I mean, fine, you build a guy that's all brawn and sword skill. What good is he in a Duel of Wits? Does he even have any Circles to speak of? Does he have any Wises that can push the scenario forward?

I find that min-maxed characters in BW are just a major frickin' disappointment! You've got ONE thing that you're good at, but there are so many other ways you can be awesome, and they're bound to come up. Then you just have to sit there and not participate.

Now, that's assuming that they're going overboard. I think the best thing you could do if that's the case is to tell them that they're not going to go far with just combat abilities and they'll want to be well-rounded to have a good time. Then make sure you follow through and throw in frequent Duels of Wits and social situations and so on. They'll probably see the light.

[Angaros]

@Mickeroo: I'm not entirely comfortable with the GM-made character concept. I know that I wouldn't want a GM to make a character for me. But then again I'm a control freak. :) Maybe this problem only underlines the importance of making the outlines and goals of a campaign together as a group instead of making it a GM only task. Next time we game (tomorrow hopefully) I have planned to have a discussion before we begin about the campaign, it's goals, the characters and their BITs. Just to make sure everyone is on the same page and that the characters are updated in this respect too (thanks for the tip Kublai!).

I know you don't have to minmax to get an enjoyable experience. But some people never seem to get that no matter what. It's like they must calculate and plan and squeeze and pull to see how much juice they can get from the system with different setups. Instead of making a good concept and see how this can be represented in BW terms they see what the system can give them and slap a concept on it. Especially true (in other systems as well) with people doing their second or third character using the same rules.

As a GM it is ofc my responsibility to make sure the players come up with workable concepts before advancing in the creation process. I try to make sure they make characters that not only work with the concept they've made but also that the numbers they choose reflect the concept and yield a character that works in the setting.

Does he have any Wises that can push the scenario forward?
Interesting sentence. Could you elaborate please? In what way do wise-skills push a scenario forward?

[Thor Olavsrud]

Does he have any Wises that can push the scenario forward?
Interesting sentence. Could you elaborate please? In what way do wise-skills push a scenario forward?

Wises are incredibly cool and useful skills that seem to make or break conflicts in our games all the time. As you look at the lifepaths, you'll see that we've included far more in the Revision.

Reasons that Wises are cool:
1. Wises are incredibly useful for making Linked Tests to do things like grant you extra dice for Circles tests. You'll notice that Circles tests can have pretty high Obstacles depending on what you're trying to do. And most starting characters don't have more than a B2 or B3 Circles (though Reputations and Affiliations can help a bit). Wises are really helpful here.

In a recent game, I had a holy knight who wanted to get a job at a Supply Depot (they were tyring to cut the enemy army's supply lines). But how to get in? He only had Circles B2, but finding someone that could help him was an Ob 4 test! His companion rolled his City-wise to find the best place to start looking for someone to help. With that success, he determined that there were some priests that provided services to the laborers. Aha! The Holy Knight then gets to roll his Circles B2 +1D from the success on the Linked test +1D for his Vested Trait (Affiliation with Church) +1D for his Local Reputation as a Bad-ass +1D for a Boon prayer. He got 6D to make his Ob 4 test. That City-wise test made a huge difference!

2. Wises can be used in all sorts of FoRKs if you think creatively. Let's say your character is trying to make a good impression with a Smuggler he wants to deal with. That Black Market-wise on your character sheet is a great FoRK to use with your Etiquette.

3. Wises are great general use knowledge skills!
Player of Ship's Carpenter: I'm checking the harbor for ships from Olfarr. I've got Ship-wise!

[luke]

hey, i started a whole new forum based on this thread!

http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1207

check it out.
-L