Hack and slash no more

[Mickeroo]

So as pretty much the first post here, I think it should be about something I feel Burning Wheel stands for. It seems like it is not meant to be hack and slash at all, but very focused on the story, at least more so than DND, which I belive tells you that you can have a chracter background if you want one and a description so that other players know what you look like. Anyway, I don't know if it's from playing these kinds of games in the past or just the type of people, but it seems that most of my games are hack-/ whether I GM or play in it, although I try to lessen it when I GM.

Anyway, my question is, how do I move players away from that trend? I mean, other than assigning artha only for RPing? In the last game I ran, in the DND system, I had 3 PCs (5 really, but 2 hardly showed up). I said before making characters that it would be a mainly role playing game with less combat. Well, 2 players listened and made well rounded rouges and bards with lots of skills, the other made a fighter who could jump, swim, and climb. He then got mad when he was paralyzed during one of the only fights in the campaign. But I digress...please, what can I do to prevent this from happening again?

[Paka]

But I digress...please, what can I do to prevent this from happening again?

Beliefs and Instincts aren't just there to round out the character. Think of them also as a kind of open letter to the GM. They are the place on the character sheet where the player is telling you, "Hey, this is what interests me about this fictional dingus I've created here!"

Listen to that.

If they want to hit things, allow them the opportunity to do so. Allow them to be heroes. I'm not saying make it easy, far from it but if they want to wail on some orc, fuckit, move the game in that direction.

[Mickeroo]

I don't think I prased my question correctly. I want to know how to make players want less hack and slash. I want the players to want to do more role playing and less roll playing. (Get it, it's a pun :D ) I don't want to go in the direction of just smashing up orcs all the time, or half the time and then trolls the other half. I want a rich story with combat kept to a minimum. I want more dules of wits then duels to the death.

[Thor Olavsrud]

I don't think I prased my question correctly. I want to know how to make players want less hack and slash. I want the players to want to do more role playing and less roll playing. (Get it, it's a pun :D ) I don't want to go in the direction of just smashing up orcs all the time, or half the time and then trolls the other half. I want a rich story with combat kept to a minimum. I want more dules of wits then duels to the death.

And Paka answered you. Look at what they put on their sheets for their Beliefs. Bring that stuff up in play. Present them with tough choices based on those Beliefs. They picked them so they'll definitely be interested in them.

[Paka]

Mickeroo, could you post their Beliefs, Instincts and Traits and we'll brainstorm ideas with ya?

[luke]

Awesome, Mike! Great first post. This is exactly what I want to talk about.

I'm sure Thor is feverishly typing a response, too. 8)

But Pete really set into words the method that we'll talk about here:

First off, know your players. Figure out their priorities for the game. What do they want from this game that you're playing?

How do you figure this stuff out? You ask. You talk about cool things you would like in the game, and you offer a chance for them to talk to. Brainstorm. Get all the players involved. Do this casually, all the time. When you're out eating is always a good opportunity.

Then, when you're ready to start the game, get them to the table, but start that conversation again. "I've got an idea, what do you guys think?"

Give them creative input. Negotiate to develop a rough direction. Once you've got an idea that you're all excited about, "It'd be cool to play an Orc tribe," then make characters.

If everyone is making characters along the same general paradigm to start, you're way ahead of the game.

You might be saying to yourself, "But I did that." I'm not attacking you but, from your description, I don't think you did. Sounds like you made the mistake all us GMs make: Hey guys, I've got this cool idea -- the game's going to be "mainly role playing game with less combat. "

I'm just positing here, but if you had brought them all in on the very fabric of the idea to start, you might have alleviated a little of the fiction.

The flip side of the coin is to recognize when players are voicing their priorities. The fighter dude obviously wanted action in the game. That's cool! Maybe next time try to incorporate scenes of life-threatening danger for his character to succeed or fail. A quick, rousing brawl's not a bad thing now and again. Detecting priorities on the fly is hard to do, and it requires that you be flexible with your own ideas. Which is even harder!

The last bit of advice I have for you is about the paralysis you mentioned. We have a name for what you did. It's called "deprotagonization." In other words, you, the GM, screwed him and took him out of the only important scene to him. That's not cool at all. He had a right to be mad.

Now balancing the tension of the game, while keeping everyone involved, is a difficult skill to master. The keys to it are:
1) knowing your game, so you understand the appropriate difficulty for conflict
2) sculpting conflicts so they are dramatic and fun, but challenging -- perhaps a paralysis effect item wasn't the best choice for that scene, you know? Maybe he would have been cooler with having his HP blasted away, because that's what a fighter's for!
3) The most important aspect is that of giving the players a stake and a say in each conflict. Give them a choice with consequences that they can readily grasp: "You can stand and fight, but more guards are on the way, you might not make it in time. Do you want to risk it?" Frame your scenes with questions like those. Let the players decide what they want to risk. Pretty soon they'll be crowing before you speak, "I don't care if the noise summons the guards! I'm going to fight my way through to the princess!" Sweet.

The trick to accomplishing step 3 in Burning Wheel is to use those Beliefs! Get those scene/risk questions tied into their Beliefs as much as you absolutely can. The players chose those beliefs, they are cool things they want involved in the game, so use them!

"I will marry the princess -- I care not that I'm low born, nor that she's 10 years my senior!"

A player writes a belief like that at the start of the game, you can get a pretty good idea that if you threaten his betrothed, he's going to flip.

Ok, those are just the thoughts off the top of my head.
I hope that helps!
-L

[Mickeroo]

OK, first, about the paralysis thing. I think you're right. If you're familiar with DND monsters, i had a group of meenlocks stealing villagers. Meenlocks paralyze thier victims, drag them into cramped underground lairs (they're only like 3 feet tall, so the tunlles leading to them are small). and then se some dark process to convert the abducted into one of their own. Anyway, the problem was that the players rolled really poorly on the their forte save and succumbed to the paralysis, which should have been easy to save against. The saving grace of that encounter was that the underestimated hafling saved the day by keeping his distance and making his oil lamp into a homemade grenade.

As for beliefs. I don't know them all off hand, and only some have made charcaters fully and given me thier sheets, but this is what I have.

Ok, as I wnet to get the character sheets I remembered that most of the people did thier entire character except for insticts and beliefs, which they felt was the hardest part. I think next time I'll do what JC did in the PBP and make them do that first. But I do have one character.

His concept is noble born child who's family was killed while he was a wee child and he had to flee the country. Now, he's kind of like Aragorn.
Beliefs: I will avenge my family 10-fold
The end justifies the means
The weak need to be protected

To go with the last belief, he has an instict that says "If a weaker friend is being attacked, jump in the way." Hmmm..his other instict is, "When missles fly, push friends out of the way"

I'll let you know when I get the other beliefs, but this is what I'm dealing with. Should I tell him to change any of them (are they bad beliefs)? Thanks for all of your helo.

[luke]

ok, this is a two parter. first, let's talk about hack and slash. You want to move your game away from killkillkill and into a more social dynamic, right? As I mentioned above, talk to your players first. Find out what their priorities are. Don't let them give you any bullshit.

As their ideas come up, try to inject SOCIAL STAKES. This is difficult to do retroactively. Best way I've found is to do it in the brainstorming phase:

Player: "And I'm going to kill that evil Duke!" ::makes stabby motions::
You: "Hm, but he's got a huge court and lots of allies. You'll never get close to him."
Player: "We'll sneak in."
You: "What about his spy-master?"
Player: "He's got a spy-master?! Wtf?"
You: "Sure. He ain't just any old even scheming bastard. He's good."
Player: "We'll kill the spy-master first."
You: "Uh, dude. You don't even know who the spy-master is, no one really does. But you could find out, with some leg work in the towns and nearby courts..."

What's that I smell? Is that a social conflict? Will that involve Resources, Circles and Duel of Wits? Why yes it will!

Keep creating loop-da-loops of complications like this and soon you've got an epic in the making. The important thing for YOU to remember is that your players want a shot at the Duke. All of the loop-da-loops have to -- MUST BE -- focused on giving them their shot. They may fail, they may succeed, but it's more important that they had a chance.

What if your players go on a bloody run of vengeance and just kill everyone they encounter? Well then, you can do the old "no one will talk to you" or "the guards come to arrest you," but such behavior is a sign of other things. It usually means the player doesn't actually want to be in your game, or he's feeling disempowered and killing is the only way he can feel like he's involved in the game. If shit like this persists, you've got to stop the game and talk about it -- as people, as friends. If you can't find a compromise, you've gotta ask them to go.


The second part is about those Beliefs. Eesh. What is the game about? What is the initial goal? What is the overall goal?

riddle me this, riddler, and we'll talk more.
-Luke

[Mickeroo]

Allright, well tonight we're going to have our first actual session. I'm gogin to be discussing said things and also doing somethig I planned out (a modified von goten) that can lead into just about anything. I should have everyone's beliefs and a group goal by tomorrow.

[luke]

Allright, well tonight we're going to have our first actual session. I'm gogin to be discussing said things and also doing somethig I planned out (a modified von goten) that can lead into just about anything. I should have everyone's beliefs and a group goal by tomorrow.

sweet. good luck and stay frosty!
-L

[Mickeroo]

Yeah, I've been trying for a while now to post my reply in here but I can't seem to do it. Is there a probem with the forums?

[Mickeroo]

Allright, I'm really confused now...did I post a long messae like 12 times? Because it's not showing up for me anymore...I guess someone deleted it, but no trouble. I'll just post it once more, hopefully nothing happens to it.

Ok, so we gamed last night, it went well, with a little more combat then I expected but ok. Everyone had a good time, except for the hostess, who fell asleep. (It was pretty late in all fairness.)

So here is a brief description of each character in my game and their beliefs and instincts. I admit I know some are horrible, but a lot of these players are new to BW and I didn't have time to really go over them all (The players were getting antsy after having to wait a while for some stragglers)

Oh, and it's a big group, but it doesn't seem so bad to manage...yet.

And just as a background, everyone just got off the boat on a new continent. They either left their old nation for new hopes in the new, or because they were exiled.

1) An elven sword singer, brother to the prince, escorting the nobles to their new land.
Beliefs:
- I am destined for greatness.
- Death before shame, death before failure.
- Drinking is a sign of weakness (goes well with another character, the dwarf drunk)
Instincts:
- Always be listening.
- If in trouble, raise sword.
- Always have an arrow nocked if bow is out.

2) A thief turned sorcerer’s apprentice. His master happens to be the other sorcerer in game.
Beliefs:
- What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine.
- My master thinks I have something of his, but it's really mine.
- Always be aware of famous valuables in the area.
Instincts:
- Always stay inconspicuous.
- Always be aware of hiding places and escape routes.
- Yoink. (Yes, Yoink is what he has written as an instinct...)

3) A rouge wizard who was fled his country right before they passed a law that would prohibit magic and kill it's users. #2's master.
Beliefs:
- Bloodletting is an excellent medicinal process (He has a high bloodletting skill to go with it).
- The stars are in my favor.
- Society is corrupt.
- I'm not spooky. (Yeah, that's 4....)
Instincts:
- Trust the second sight.
- When all else fails, thunderclap/fear and run.
- Keep an eye on my apprentice, he has something of mine.


4) A noble born man who's family was horribly slaughtered before him (he has the trait from the barbarian lifepaths Very Happy ) Now he's a ranger-type who is looking to get power back into the right hands.
Beliefs:
- Avenge my family 10-fold.
- The end justifies the means.
- The weak must be protected.
Instincts:
- When missles fly, push someone to safety.
- Always use stealthy.
- If a friend is attacked, jump in the way.

5) A gunsmith coming to the new world to start up a business in a new field.
Beliefs:
- The gun is mightier than the bow.
- Dwarves are an inferior race. 'Half the height, half the man.'
- Loyalty is above all else
Instincts
- Always take aim before firing
- Always carry a gun.
- Ask questions before shooting

6) A drunk dwarf who turns to the drink a bit too often, often a trouble maker.
Beliefs:
- All dwarfs are ok
- There's no good reason not to have a drink
- The bar keep is my friend (Actually, the barkeep is a relationship that hates him)
- Oath: I'll protect the barkeep's life no matter what.
Instincts:
- Always be ready for a fight
- Drink like a demon
- I'm tall (Yeah, I know I need to talk to him about these)

7) She was forced to convert to a religion and got as far as acolyte before escaping and went on to become a doctor. She's now looking to make a name for herself by finding the cure to some disease.
She made her character last night and didn't have time for any beliefs or instincts, which I figured was ok since it's only an opening scenario anyway. The only things she got was this instinct: Always take defensive stance."

Sorry I know it's a long post, if you're reading this, thanks for getting through it. Now the big question, what should I do? I tried asking the players, they really weren't responsive, and they seem to not care what path I lead them down as long as it's fun.

[Bill Cook]

It looks like you've got a lot to work with. I would really get off on playing up the pocket-picking between master and apprentice. The gunsmith is just begging to be provoked by dwarves. (e.g. "You saved my life! But you're a damn, dirty dwarf! NOOOOO!!") You could have the nobleman befriend a stranger in town who becomes wrongly accused of a crime and is pursued by marshal types. A fight breaks out. Arrows fly. Will he jump in front to save his friend? If he does, reveal that his protectorate is the son of the man who slaughtered his family! ("NOOOOO!!") As he lies dying, the rogue wizard shoulders his way through the crowd that's forming. ("Dear me, these wounds are serious. Fortunately, I've brought a bucket and a rubber tube.")

[Mickeroo]

Wow, those are all awesome ideas. Thank you. Oh man, everyone keep them coming.

[luke]

And just as a background, everyone just got off the boat on a new continent. They either left their old nation for new hopes in the new, or because they were exiled.

Ok, first off, not one of the characters below has a Belief relating to their new home or their purpose here. Looking over the Beliefs, there's no reason to go through them all in detail.

If you want to jumpstart your game and get all of the players involved, you've got to get in their heads and you have to give them more of what's in your head.

Beliefs should have names, relationships, places, crimes, tragedies, losses, boasts and direct-action oriented goals written into them.


1) An elven sword singer, brother to the prince, escorting the nobles to their new land.
Beliefs:
- I am destined for greatness.
- Death before shame, death before failure.
- Drinking is a sign of weakness (goes well with another character, the dwarf drunk)
Instincts:
- Always be listening.
- If in trouble, raise sword.
- Always have an arrow nocked if bow is out.


For example:
I shall rule this land with an iron fist and forge it into a weapon.
I shall avenge myself on my brother who exiled me.
I shall cure this drunk-ass Dwarf of his disease and put him to good use.


2) A thief turned sorcerer’s apprentice. His master happens to be the other sorcerer in game.
Beliefs:
- What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine.
- My master thinks I have something of his, but it's really mine.
- Always be aware of famous valuables in the area.
Instincts:
- Always stay inconspicuous.
- Always be aware of hiding places and escape routes.
- Yoink. (Yes, Yoink is what he has written as an instinct...)


Yoink ain't an instinct. But whatever.
- What's yours is mine; I take what's mine, when I need it
See the difference here? Just encourage him to put some action into it.

- My mastered dared accuse me of a crime I did not commit! He shall pay dearly for such a slight.

- It is imperative that my lady love never know where this ring truly came from...

Just some possible suggestions. Something like these allows you to use the master as a villain and to tie a possible relationship into the plot.


Sorry I know it's a long post, if you're reading this, thanks for getting through it. Now the big question, what should I do? I tried asking the players, they really weren't responsive, and they seem to not care what path I lead them down as long as it's fun.

If your players are unresponsive, you've got to offer up some ideas yourself. "What about we start off at the docks with a huge slave riot?" Or, "Later on, I'd like you all to be involved in high-stakes political negotiations, is that cool?" Then ask, "But how do we get there?" "How about we manage to save the life of one of those slaves, who turns out to be a high-ranking politico for X nation?" Or "How about you end up getting rounded up with the other slaves and shipped off to a huge battle. You guys have chance to turn the tide of the battle. This puts you in a position to join up with a bunch of sides and really sway the situation."

Just get them talking. I'm kind of being unfair by playing both sides. How about we brainstorm a bit here and you can take some of it back to your players?

Pretend I'm one of your players. Joe, right? Inspire me to play in your game. I'm playing the Rogue Wizard.

-L

[Mickeroo]

I think that the biggest problem I have is that I've never done anything like this before. I mean, in previous games that I've played or run, it had always just been doing what the GM felt like doing. Sometimes he told you the basics before hand, sometimes not.

Allright, well one of the rouge wizard's beliefs is "Society is corrupt". He probably got this from his experience as a court sorcerer, seeing all the political garbage that was going on. Maybe he'd be interested in setting up a government here where the common, honest person was in charge.

Would it be a better approach to have the players set up in town for a while first, and then do all of this? I mean, right now, their hometown doesn't mean as much to them, but if they have succesful business's and high positions in the governemnt, they might be more willing to help. Also, for those with positions, government officals aren't too far from diplomats. I could always say that the mystery man will need a few months before he can even start to go on his journey.

The only problem with the above would be that not everyone would want to do the same thing while in town and I don't want players to a)feel left out as I talk with other players about thier plans, or b) force players to make it really quick and miss out on some important story behind thier actions, and make the game feel rushed. That's why I figured a group goal would be necessary at this point.

So if I have them stay at home for a few months, all the while hearing rumors of massive orc hordes marurading the coutnry side, I think many people would have something to do. Gunsmith, Doctor - set up shop. Dwarf - get drunk?, Rouge Wizard - set up blood letting shop or political offic, sword singer - political office (in name of elves everywhere). The human Strider could also go for office I guess. The thief...could just roam the streets trying to make a living?

Lastlly, I wanted a lot of people to see this, so I put it here.
http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11312#11312
Thanks.

[Thor Olavsrud]

The only problem with the above would be that not everyone would want to do the same thing while in town and I don't want players to a)feel left out as I talk with other players about thier plans, or b) force players to make it really quick and miss out on some important story behind thier actions, and make the game feel rushed. That's why I figured a group goal would be necessary at this point.

Hey Mike! This is why it's important to hold a character creation session and make sure everyone is involved in the process. I'm not talking about getting everyone in the same room and ignoring each other as you do up your characters. I'm talking about actually discussing character concepts and goals with each other. As a GM, you can still present a setting you think is cool, but then ask the players what they want to do with it. What interests them? What goals do they have? What would they want to change? That's the stuff for your campaign right there!

Allright, well one of the rouge wizard's beliefs is "Society is corrupt".

Okay, that's a good start. Beliefs should be an outgrowth of the ideas generated in your chat session. But what do you do with Society is corrupt? What's the action? It's not a bad Belief, but it's hard to use.

Now, consider these two possibilities:
- Society is corrupt, but I have a chance to stop that corruption before it takes root in this new place.

- Society is corrupt, and I can use that to gain power in this new place.

These both stem from the same root idea (Society is corrupt), but have the potential to create VERY different stories. If your player has a character with the first Belief, it is your JOB as GM to present opportunities for this player to get involved in the power structure of the new place and to confront its corruption. You KNOW that he's going to dive in head first, because he cared enough about that issue to put it on his sheet, AND he knows he'll get Artha for doing it.

Now, how do you take that and make it interesting for YOU? My first instinct as a GM would be to throw in a powerful NPC that is fully and utterly corrupt, and yet essential to the settlement's survival. Now the player is presented with a very real conflict: he can cut out the corruption, but the risk is the destruction of everything that's been built.

Do you see how an entire storyline has been built on challenging a Belief? That's how this stuff is supposed to work!

Let's take the second one: Society is corrupt, and I can use that to gain power in this new place!

That's a meaty one. It goes in an entirely different direction. If you have a player with this Belief, it will be your JOB to present opportunities for the character to get ahead through bribery, blackmail, extortion and possibly assassination.

A player with this Belief is begging you to ask him just how far he'll go in pursuit of power. To make this interesting for you, you have to establish NPCs that he cares about, that support him, that trust and believe in him. Then give him the opportunity to sacrifice them for his advancement. That's the test!

So you need to pull all this stuff together. You need to work with the players during character creation to help them shape their Beliefs into something they find interesting AND something that you can work with and challenge.

Here's a rule of thumb you can use. When a player gives you a Belief, you should be able to say to yourself: "Oh REALLY?! Let's see if you still believe that if THIS happens."

If you can't, you need to shape the Belief some more.

Kublai suggests that during campaign creation, when you're sitting around talking about your setting, characters they want to play, and possible Beliefs, you should convince them all to take one Belief that points in the same direction. They DON'T have to be identical, but they must be related.

An example loosely based on a dwarven campaign Kublai ran:
one character with the Belief: I will become High King if I can reach the High King's lost Hall.

another character: The key to becoming chief of my clan lies in the High King's lost Hall.

another: The treasures I find in the High King's lost Hall will give me the power I need to crush my rival clan!

Each of them has a REASON to undertake this quest. This will probably be the hardest part for you, because you have such an extraordinarily large group. You've got to find a way to make it happen though, or your campaign will collapse before it ever takes off.

Here's the other thing: you need to get all of your players excited and interested in everyone else's characters. They have to care about them (even if they want to see them die).

[Mickeroo]

Ok, well, I didn't have a character creating session. Is it to late to go back? I mean, I don't think anyone wants to make thier character again, but we can change beliefs right?

Here's the info you asked for in the sticky
- There are 7 players. This may raise to 8, but the last person is kind of a stretch.
- We played this game for one session, which, not including trying to discuss group goals at the beginning, lasted about 3 hours.
- 4 players I've been playing with for about 3-4 years (sorry I don't have too many years under my belt, but I'm only 19) 1 I have been playing with for a few months at most, and the other 3 (including the maybe) I've never played with before, but they've never really played an RPG before.
- I do socialize with all of the players outside of the game
- I tried to do a group campaign creation thing, but no one had any ideas. NO ONE! In the end, they just said they wanted to have fun. I was forced to do it the old fashioned way.
- We did not to a character burning session, although we can go back and change beliefs.
- The characters are all natives to BW.
- Beliefs are listed in a previous post in this thread.
- I have no idea how I am hitting those beliefs in play.
- My main problem: I guess it's that I have no idea how I am hitting those belifs in play.

I think my first step to success is going to be going back and changing beliefs/insticnts because some are just bad, like 'Yoink" and a lot more need help, plus to be tied together.

[luke]

Ok, fun is a meaningless term. Fun is different for everyone. Your players were just being shy. They've never done anything like this before either! As I mentioned above, you've got to get them talking about what they think is cool. In order to do that, you've got to put some of your own ideas on the table.

And, it doesn't hurt to put some of your worries on the table. "I'd like to start the campaign off in this town, but I'm afraid the game will disintegrate if I don't give you some holy mission from above. What can we do in town that will focus the group?"

Start with a conflict. "This town is corrupt and shipping weapons to the enemy, what are you going to do about it?" Giving details like that helps shape the Beliefs AND shape what the initial campaign will be about.

-L

[Thor Olavsrud]

Sure! You can go back, that's not a problem. The main thing is for the players to talk about their goals. They've got a feel for the setting now. What do they want to do about it?

From the answers you posted to the sticky, I don't see any problems there. That's a good thing!

So: find out what they care about. Get them to vocalize what they care about in their Beliefs. Make sure that the Beliefs are structured in such a way that you know how to Test them. Test them ALL THE FREAKIN' TIME!!!

And make sure that with at least one of the Beliefs, each player details a similar goal, even if what they want to do when they achieve that goal varies wildly!

[Mickeroo]

Allright, I'm going to go over everyone's beliefs and change at least one of them each so they aim for a common goal. I'll be talking to them over the next two days and hopefully will have everything sorted out by then. Hopefully, I'll be able to post by game time on Friday, if not, I'll let you guys know what happens afterwards.

As for not seeing any problems with the sticky responses, what about not having the players help with creating the goal or having a character burning session? I guess we can still try to fix that?

[luke]

As for not seeing any problems with the sticky responses, what about not having the players help with creating the goal or having a character burning session? I guess we can still try to fix that?

you know what i'd do at this point? I'd show 'em. I'd look over those Beliefs and choose the two strongest sets. Then plan a scenario around them. A finite scenario; one goal, one twist, two sessions. High intensity, all action -- whether social or physical, it don't matter.

The important thing is to kick out the jams and make it rock. Get them excited.

THEN, when you're done, ask them, "you want more of that?" After the shouts and cheers die down, you yell back, "THEN HELP ME, YOU JERKS!" :roll: Or something.

I think your group needs a taste of the good life. I think they all need to see how you are rewarded for playing BITs and that characters generally do what you tell them to (if you know what I mean).

short, sweet, to the point. One goal. No saving the world.

es claro?
-L

[Thor Olavsrud]

Allright, I'm going to go over everyone's beliefs and change at least one of them each so they aim for a common goal.

Whoa! Hold on there buckaroo. You are going to open yourself up for a world of disappointment if you do this (assuming I'm reading you correctly). The players have to be the ones to do this.

It's very important that players write their own Beliefs, because they have to care about them. When the players care about them, the GM can introduce stuff into the game to test those Beliefs, knowing full-well that the players will respond. Why? Because they care about them.

If you write new Beliefs for them, you'll throw that entire system out of wack. At best, the players won't be invested in the new Belief and will only act on it if they feel like it. At worst, you'll injure their trust and they will find ways to act out in game.

Trust me, don't give them the goal. Help them find one they can all agree on.

[Mickeroo]

Yeah sorry, that came out wrong. WHat I meant was that I'd go over the beliefs with thier players and have them change them to something that fits both a general goal and what they want.

And abzu, what do you mean by "the two strongest sets?"

[Thor Olavsrud]

Phew! Thought I'd lost you there for a moment Mike. Glad we're on the same page!

I think what Luke meant was to take two of the strongest sets of Beliefs you can find among the characters, and base a session on those Beliefs. Show them just how satisfying it can be to play based on a good set of Beliefs.

[Mickeroo]

But by strongest sets, does he (or you) mean the most common themes? For example, would the set of belifs dealing with setting up a succesful business make up a strong set, and another one about currupt society be another set?

Hmmm... I can't phrase this question right.

[Thor Olavsrud]

No. If I'm reading him correctly, he's suggesting you pick two characters that the players gave really strong Beliefs, and base a session around stuff involving their Beliefs.

That was my sense anyway.

But you've already decided to make the really important step of sitting down with them and helping them shape stronger Beliefs that you can work with. I don't think you'll be disappointed with the results.

[Mickeroo]

So what I'm thinking is, since I have such a huge group, to take only a few beliefs of the characters into account at a time. Like, maybe focus on 1-3 for a few sessions and then throw the game in another direction that focuses on other players.

However, if you guys think it's a good idea still, I'll sit down with the players are rework thier beliefs (with their consent and participation of course)

[Mickeroo]

Allright, so I introduced my idea to 6 of the 7 players and they all said that they liked it, some were actually really excited about it. We changed some beliefs, but for a lot of the characters, the players found reasons to do it anyway. Like the gunsmith had the idea of making an army of Barrets(the guy from FFVII) Supplying an army with new weaponry is a GREAT carear opportunity.

I am still going to hold of on the save the world plot for a little while though. I am going to have them wait around in town for a couple of months until the stranger heals. In the meantime, they start hearing rumors of orc maurading parties to the north. When the leaders of their town go west to speak with the Carnemet, a lone survivor returns telling of how the council and they entire squad of bodyguards was killed. This will open up some political office for some of the players to get a hold of while giving them a sense of impending danger.

I;m also thinking of changing the story so that instead of the stranger coming to warn the townsfolk, he's just here to make an alliance, so now they must return to the great Carnemet city to gather them as allies as well. Many of the characters see this diplomacy as an opportunity to make powerful allies that can be later used against the corrupt governments of thier homelands.

Is this any better? Game time quickly approaches and while I'd rather not have a crappy time, I'd rather have one that everyone can enjoy, even if it's not the best it can be, instead of postponing it for another week.

Also, another player may be joining (I know that makes a lot) but she expressed a desire (before I thought of all this) to play a noblewoman, which I think would fit well into this.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Sounds like a good start man. Why don't you post some of those new Beliefs when you get a chance?

[Mickeroo]

Allright, I'm on my way out right now, so I'll post them once I get back and talk to the last player (and the possible new one) then post them all together. Just a warning, not everyone's beliefs changed, but thier characters fit into the story anyway, although perhaps indirectly. is that a bad thing?

[Thor Olavsrud]

Allright, I'm on my way out right now, so I'll post them once I get back and talk to the last player (and the possible new one) then post them all together. Just a warning, not everyone's beliefs changed, but thier characters fit into the story anyway, although perhaps indirectly. is that a bad thing?

Whatever works, baby!

[Mickeroo]

So we went over beliefs and changed some of them, others just fit into the story. Keep in mind that I won't be going into the save the world plot just yet, and I might alter it to be a completly different kind of adventure. Onto the characters beliefs and how they're going to fit into the game.

The elven sword singer has changed his belief about drinking being a sign of weakness to the suggested one that he will fix that drunken dwarf. His role in the story- He is going on behalf of all elves in the new land to establish them as a legitamte power.

The rouge wizard changed his belief to the suggested, society is corrupt and I will use it to my advantage. He is going to try to manipulate the other nations leaders to get him what he wants.

The gunsmith didn't change any beliefs. He sees a great opportunity. Picture Gruman (if that's how you spell it), the aircraft company, during/after world war 2. He could potentially make a LOT of money selling guns to the armies. He even had the idea of designing guns that the Carnemet (machine people) could attach to thier bodies.

The noble/strider didn't change any beleifs either. He's working on the revenge related belief and wants to gain allies to go back to his homeland and take care of the people who killed his family. He knows that whoever planned it is powerful and that he'll need help.

The doctor and the dwarf like the setting, but are still thinking of ways to work into it. It should be fine tohugh because the doctor still has 3 beliefs to make and won't make it until next Friday, and the dwarf is thinking up stuff right now, and he's definatly changing one belief, maybe more.

[luke]

the next, and hardest, step for you is to be CERTAIN to reward fate artha when the players bring their beliefs into play.

once you do this, the loop closes, the spark kicks, and everything ignites.

-L

[Mickeroo]

So we're making progress then? I would want to just be travelling horizontally here, or backwards. I'll be sure to award artha. I am a little confused about awarding artha though. I'll post that in a new thread though, where it fits.

http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11514#11514

Anyway, game night's tonight, I'll let everyone know how it goes. I think I'll still need help.

[Mickeroo]

Ok, sorry for the delay in posting, I wanted to make sure the forums were completely fixed.

Anyway, gaming went allright. The only thing is, not a lot got done. There was a lot of humor and in-character side tracking. For example, the thief decided to steal from the noble elf family and that initiated a little escapade that lasted for at least an hour. But everyone had fun and our group tends to be a little more humor oriented anyway.

I made sure to award fate, in fact, that may have been all I awarded. I also awarded it for playing instincts at inconvienent times.

I think that most of the other problems I'm having are just mechanical ones, like what to do with guns, enchanting, et cetera. I'll post those in other threads though, as I have.