I think that the game needs better coup-de-gras rules.

[Yagathai]

The scene:

Bosun Bully Bill Bellyman and his intrepid companions are facing off against Norbert Plaguemaster and his crew of cutthroats and ne'er-do-wells. Bully Bill knows that Norbert must not live to cast his vote at next week's council meeting, or an all-out war between the Thieves' Guild and the dockside union boys will result.

Bully Bill draws his trusty blade Earnocker and singles out the insidious Norbert for single combat. Bully Bill's boys fan out behind him. Bill and Norbert close with each other and begin circling -- but why is Norbert smirking? Suddenly, from out of an alley a block away pour a score of thugs bristling with weapons and dressed in the Plaguemaster purple.

Bully Bill needs to move quick. He feints with his knife and then comes in with his left, landing a light jab and then a solid elbow direct to Norbert's temple. Norbert drops like a sledgehammered calf destined for the veal factory (stunning blow coupled with two Light wounds -- Norbert has Fainted for 4 actions).

The thugs are seconds away, so Bully Bill has to act fast. He drops to one knee beside Norbert's form and slides his blade skillfully between the ribs and into his foe's black heart (a called shot with 7 successes -- using the 0 Obstacle rules on page 150 of the rulebook, this is an automatic Superb success and a therefore B8 success -- a Traumatic wound). Not willing to leave anything to chance, Bully Bill draws Earnocker across Norbert's throat (the same called shot and the same 7 successes, doing another Traumatic wound) and, as a final insult, drives Earnocker deep into Norbert's left eye and into his brain!. He twists the blade viciously, grinding against Norbert's eyesocket, then gets up and runs for his life along with his companions (Norbert takes another Traumatic wound, bringing his total to 3 Traumatic wounds. It'll take him 30 minutes to bleed to a Mortal (2 hours halved, and then halved again)).

Norbert's thugs happen to have among them a couple of ex-soldiers with some knowledge of field-dressing. They manage to stop his bleeding in time (inside of 30 minutes for the first one, another 30 for the second and then a whole hour for the third) enough so that Norbert can be brought to his household surgeon, who patches him up. Norbert will be bed-bound for a while, but is well enough that he can cast his vote by proxy at the council meeting. Bosun Bellyman's world explodes into an infernal orgy of fire and death, and he can't understand why. He's SURE that he killed the Plaguemaster! Every one of the three blows that he landed was a sure-kill. Nobody can live through a severed aorta, a cut throat and a blade twisted around in the skull!

Then again, Bully Bill recalled, there was that one time when he was attempting to rescuing the Lady Damalthia from the evil necromancer Splorge. The necromancer had her drugged unconscious and tied spread-eagled to an altar, but even though the bandy-legged death-mage cut her throat four times with his sacrificial dagger, slashed through her spinal cord AND buried his razor-sharp superior-quality blade to the hilt into her skull, she just wouldn't die and complete the ceremony. At least, not before Bill managed to behead the Necromancer with a single blow from his axe.

What was it that the necromancer kept screaming as he slashed and stabbed, again and again and again, bespattering his already gory robe with the virgin blood of his sweet, nubile captive? Something like "Goddamn it! I can't do any better than a Traumatic wound with this fucking knife! Even a five-year old with a fucking spork should be able to kill this stupid helpless bitch. How much fucking blood does she have in her that it takes her TWO HOURS to bleed to death with a cut throat? Even if I half the time by cutting her a second time, and then half it again and again and again, it'll still take her minutes to die! I can't fucking beliaaaaaaaargh... *gurgle* *spurt* *thump* *thump*. "

[Kublai]

Saving both the victim's in your examples sounds like heroic efforts on behalf of their doctors. I don't have the books here at work (Thank God!), but what Obstacles are we talking about?

Would 2 ex-soldiers have enough dice with their Field Dressing skills to reach that Ob in the time allowed before Norbert beld to death? Do they have the proper tools on them and are the working conditions favorable (if not, that's double obstacle!) Would Norbert have enough Health dice to make his Health Ob for each wound? Would Norbert recover enough dice (which in your example is a considerable amount!) to be concious at all in one week for the vote?

I ask the same questions of a Lady (probably even less dice for all the above rolls!). Who's got the time to administer such care while in the depths of a Necromancer's lair?

I had a priest who once took many Severe wounds in one combat - Orcs had cut him to pieces. Even with the best care, he did not recover enough dice to open his eyes until many weeks had passed. It wasn't until months later that he was even able to walk.

In most of these cases, as a GM and a player, both victims would've been declared dead by the GM. But, even with the mechanics ruling, I believe Artha would be the only hope they had for survival.

[eruditus]

I think Yagathai has a point. the slit throat and dagger through the eye should spell instant death for most folk. Maybe even a system of "instant mortal wound with anything that has at least a power +1 when attacking a helpless foe?"

On the other hand, boy would my players be upset with me when folk started dyin' in there sleep.

[Kublai]

I don't believe there is a way to give PCs a chance for living through such attrocious wounds and have your NPCs dying from the same wounds instantly. That would be a double-standard. As it is, these mechanics are quite generous for PC survivability.

Besides, it's always a blast for a GM to bring back a villain you are quite sure you killed! :twisted:

[eruditus]

That is also true...

I am going to look into how long it takes folk to die in these circumstances and what it takes to kill someone instantly.

[Yagathai]

Kublai: The healing times aren't the point. What I'm saying is that mechanically speaking, it's impossible for someone of even exceptional strength (B6) to kill someone of average constitution in one blow with a knife, even if the other person is unconscious at their feet. That doesn't seem right to me.

Though, for reference, in the first example it's perfectly possible (though not very likely) that Norbert lives -- I did the math -- whereas without massive Artha expenditure, the much-abused lady will indeed die within a minute-and-a-half or so.

Eruditus: Just for sake of example, someone stabbed in one kidney usually dies inside of two to five minutes, and are rendered unconscious by shock within a minute. If both kidneys take a stab wound, the person dies inside of thirty seconds, and shock takes them under almost instantly. A cut femoral artery typically results in incapacitation within thirty seconds and death inside of five minutes. And a cut throat -- well, unconsciousness is usually within two to five seconds and death is a foregone conclusion.

Stab wounds to the heart, on the other hand, aren't as lethal as one might imagine. The muscular walls of the heart are sort of self-sealing, and so a narrow-bladed weapon like a rapier can puncture the wall of the heart without causing instant death -- in fact, during the renaissance, there are documented cases of people taking a stab wound to the heart and continuing to fight for quite some time, and in rare cases, even walking away and surviving. On the other hand, a broad-bladed knife like a bowie knife, or a blade with a thick cross-section like a poignard or a stiletto cause wounds too big for the heart's wall to seal. Plus, if any sort of weapon lands a decent hit to the aorta, death occurs inside of a minute.

On the other hand, keep in mind that the human body is capable of amazing feats. There are many documented cases of people doing incredible things with staggering wounds and blood loss that should have killed them minutes ago.

Instant death with a blade can also occur if a blade enters vital portions of the brain -- plus, even if it doesn't, a brainial (hee! I just made that world up.) wound bleeds profusely -- or if someone has the strength to force a blade between the vertebrae and sever the spinal column, or up into the medulla oblongata via the back of the head.

[Kublai]

Here's something else to consider - style of play. How does your character know that he gave his nemesis a Traumatic Wound? After all, the man is lying unconcious on the ground and bleeding after being stabbed in the neck. It would take quite a skilled medieval doctor to realize the man was still alive and an even better one to be able to keep him so. To your average soldier, a man lying unmoving in his own pool of blood looks pretty much dead. I prefer play up this aspect in my games, much more so than just the numbers.

[Kublai]

Anyway, your point is valid. Most PCs and NPCs won't die from a single knife wound - for better or worse (as a PC, I tend to think for the better!;)) How do you think this can be solved within BW parameters?

[Yagathai]

Simple. Add a level of damage above Superb. Call it Exceptional, perhaps, and make it twice the weapon's power.

[Kublai]

Simple. Add a level of damage above Superb. Call it Exceptional, perhaps, and make it twice the weapon's power.

Do you mean 2x the Mark damage? That would make the average Exceptional knife wound a B10. This would require 4 successes with your Add 1 knife. Or a completely helpless person. That works fine.

Now, let's see what that means for the rest of BW wounds.
An average Sword would cause a B14 Exceptional and need base 7 successes. I am starting to get a dreadful feeling in the base of my stomach. (edited- Do you realize this allows a soldier with a B6 (not entirely uncommon) Power to do a G2 strike???)

Ranged-weapon's IMS would have to be refactored to include 4 categories - very difficult on a D6.

What you are doing is making BW all the more deadly - and BW is one of the more deadlier games out there! Are you sure you want to pursue this matter? :(

[Yagathai]

I suppose that technically it does make the game a bit more fatal, but practically speaking it wouldn't have too much effect on PCs. To an ordinary human schmuck the difference between a G2 strike and a B12 strike is fairly minimal, as both are going to be a Mortal wound. Refactoring the IMS of the ranged weapons is irritating, though.

My suggestion is also infinitely less deadly that the one that eruditus made tonight. He recommends mandating a Health or Forte test that accompanies any Traumatic wound. The result of a failed check is instant death.

How about this, if the Exceptional wound concept is too finicky for you: For each success over the number needed for a Superb result with a melee or thrown weapon, increase the damage by a number of pips equal to the weapon's +Power (minimum 1 in the case of weapons with no +Power). So a knife strike on an unconscious person would need 3 successes for a Superb, and any additional would bump up the damage -- in my example, the 7 total successes would cause a B12 wound, which isn't entirely unrealistic.

Of course, this makes weapons with high power even more deadly, but only in upper skill ranges -- which, IMO, is just as it should be.

[eruditus]

Bleh!

I like the perspective of "when you take a certain level of wound you make a Health check (which is perfect since it combines WIll and Forte to boot). It starts at Midi with a Ob1, Severe Ob2, Traumatic Ob3. This roll can be ignored by spending Artha to shrug off the effects of wounds.

This still gives players the edge to survive despite poor rolls and it emulates reality in that sometimes that second story fall can just outright break your neck or the candlestick hits the temple just right.

[luke]

Health tests vs Shock?
Funny. Not bad, but it sounds like a Hackmaster rule.

The Burning Wheel Injury system generally reflects injury and disability from wounds in combat--while both parties are operating at full capacity.

In the Hatred (http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=7) rules PDF I discuss ritual murder. It is simply a Rituals skill test vs the obstacle of the victim's Forte. If the test is successful, then victim is killed outright.

Deadly random happenstance is not something I wanted to stress in this fantasy rpg. It exists, but it is rare and governed by conditions. Largely because it is anti-fun. It appears most often in missile weapon damage and falling. We call it "The Die of Fate."

When I do use it, I warn the players that if they continue their present course, I might have to call on the DOF and what the consequences will be. I give them ample time to change their actions. If they don't, then I tell them the time has come and remind them of the consequences. And then I roll the die.

For falling damages:
If the fall is from a very great height, the character survives on the roll of a 1.
If the fall is from a relatively low height, the character is killed only on a 1.
(Variations exist, but this is the core mechanic for BW falling damage). Why not have a wounding mechanic for falling? Because it is more unpredictable than any other deadly phenomena in the game. It would be nearly impossible (and I believe wrong-headed) to give gravity a strict IMS. Sure, sometimes I break legs with a roll of a 2 on low fall, but codifying d6 pts of damage per 10 ft doesn't work, because there is always a chance someone survives.

And in the example at the start of the thread, Mr Billy is using what we call ColinSense and he would be roundly drubbed at our table for doing so. The situation is tense, he's got no time to assess or even do the job properly. In his mind each shot is a perfect killing blow, but what's really happening is that he taking a few blind jabs as he scrambles away. He doesn't know the effects of his stabs, and he doesn't have time to do the job right.

I see your point regarding killing blows, but one must tread carefully in this regard. To say to a PC, "Ok, you're killed in your sleep by a dumb thug named Billy Bosun." Is just wrong. Because it's a PC? Not really, but because so many many many hits like that have been bungled across the millenia. So if you must stab a helpless victim through the eye , roll the DOF. On a 1 they survive, otherwise they are meat.

[nebulousmenace]

I think what we want is something that has the following characteristics:
1. It should not be safe to do during an actual melee. If there are people swinging swords, you shouldn't stop to find the gizzard.
2. It should not allow, for instance, killing of a sleeping dragon with a table leg.
3. It is not 100% guaranteed. There was a case of a headsman who took seven chops to kill one unfortunate noble. . .he was nervous.

Here's my suggestion.

Coup De Grace: This is a careful attack delivered to a helpless opponent. The Opponent MUST be at Ob 0. This works, mechanically, like a Great Strike; it requires a "set" maneuver, and adds 1 to the Power of the attack. Even weapons not capable of the Great Strike can do a Coup De Grace. The effect is cumulative with a Great Strike- it adds 2 to Power and takes 2 "Set" movements.

However, while delivering the Coup and for the Set actions before it, the attacker is at Ob 0 to be hit. They're leaning over finding the big vein, or setting their feet for the chop, or whatever.

So with a Superb success, that B8 becomes a B9 and Norbert takes three Mortals instead.

If Norbert had been even tougher that still would have been three Traumatic wounds, and might make it, +but think of it this way: Someone at Normandy took over forty bullet wounds and lived.

In the case of the noble, the headsman would do a Superb Great Strike Coup-de-Grace with an Axe and B5 power would do B16, vs. B15 without the Coup. The worst-case, Incidental, would be a B6.

[eruditus]

I like this perspective in many games ...

the idea that the game is not about killing. Others go as far as to say the person is down and out and you have to pointedly note "I am murding this man." And you do.

This is a difference in perspective. Kublai and Abzu are not saying "a dagger to the eye-holes shouldn't kill a man instantly." I believe they are saying that sort of decision making should be up to the GM.

This isn't really a discussion about rules but about gaming philosophy. One that Yagathai, Dwelver and I had had in adnausium. Its about the balance of power between the players, GM and the rules.

For a great perspective on this discussion you can check out
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/dream20jan03.html

Personally I am a GM Power-heavy person and I would venture to guess, so it abzu :)

[Yagathai]

And in the example at the start of the thread, Mr Billy is using what we call ColinSense and he would be roundly drubbed at our table for doing so.

ColinSense?

Oh, and it's Mr. Bellyman, not Mr. Billy. Or, more accurately, Bosun Bellyman


To say to a PC, "Ok, you're killed in your sleep by a dumb thug named Billy Bosun." Is just wrong. Because it's a PC? Not really, but because so many many many hits like that have been bungled across the millenia. So if you must stab a helpless victim through the eye , roll the DOF. On a 1 they survive, otherwise they are meat.

Hmm. That could work.

And it's not Billy Bosun! It's Bosun Bully Bill, or Bosun Bill, or Bully Bill, or Bosun Bellyman, or Bosun Bill Bellyman, or Bosun Bully Bill, but never Billy Bosun. Please, have some respect for the man. ;) :(

[Kublai]

ColinSense?


I refer you here: http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=33

and to here: http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=32


Enjoy and honor the memory of St. Colin! :D

[eruditus]

Heh.

I played a freeform game (very little rules) where we played ourselves. I attained this trait (I have been referred to as a gaming-whore by some :? )

SO it seemed appropriate that my abilities in the game were that I knew the rules to the game

This manifested itself in the game as follows: we had the ability to teleport to any place we could think of, not unlike Amber, so I went to the place that had the game we were playing as a roleplaying game - interestingly enough I found out that in that world I wrote it - :lol:

[quixoteles]

What you are doing is making BW all the more deadly - and BW is one of the more deadlier games out there! Are you sure you want to pursue this matter?

oh-o-ooo-oo, I do! ...very much so! :twisted:

I enjoy frightening the living daylights out of my players! :twisted:


Do you realize this allows a soldier with a B6 (not entirely uncommon) Power to do a G2 strike???

Conversely, oh-mi-ga! Did I just manage to wound that sleeping god? :twisted:

Fear not men, Sauron bleeds! :twisted:

That is a record for the most emoticons for me ever… ((=_=))

[Kaare Berg]

This isn't really a discussion about rules but about gaming philosophy.

it is as simple as that.

Players always try to get the most bang for their bucks. They never shoot a foe when they can "aim for the eye" or slit his gizzard. They always look for that angle that will give them that little edge.

Why: to generalise: they want see their guys win.

So why not let this "shot to the eye" kill outright?

Because after that your players will be known as the eye-popping brigade. They are like dogs, you teach them a trick that gives them something good, and they will always try that trick in an effort to get more goodness.

This gets tiresome after a while.

Just as a side note,
Ranged-weapon's IMS would have to be refactored to include 4 categories - very difficult on a D6.

Not really, Extraordinary damage would be on 7+ requiering the player to score more successes than needed to get the plusses on the DOF.

But like above this would be tiresome after a while. I already have an archer who avrages on superb B13 damage (artha and a B8 Bow skill). And this is rule true. It still gets tiresom.

And God forbid I do the same to them.

So to round this up and get back to work,

In his mind each shot is a perfect killing blow, but what's really happening is that he taking a few blind jabs as he scrambles away. He doesn't know the effects of his stabs, and he doesn't have time to do the job right.

And IMO this outlook gives better games, than the scare them with the rules outlook. But then I am a grumpy old man.

[eruditus]

I like the aiming rules too. They are solidly concieved and play out well. Its up to the GM to describe superb hits with enough flare, even to the point of suggesting that the eye was aimed at.


I agree with negilent, that by making killing blows more "crunchy" you remove their thrill.

[Manicrack]

So, just assuming that both victims from the original example were unconscious at some point (the badit, or whatever it was after the first blow, the lady all the time)
PC, and NPC should be allowed to say
"I kill/murder him/her"
Now it gets ugly.
In the end, I guess it is up to the GM.
I may remind you of the very last chapter in BW.
"Don't use this system"
PC's should be allowed to land a killing blow to an unconscious or incapacitated victim if they can express an extreme hatred for that person. Don't use dice for this, but simple roleplayin. If they manage to do a good job (describing the many years of waiting for the moment to finaly avenge the gruesome death of your family...blah, blah, blah) instead of just saying "I hate his guts, I kill him"
the GM should consider declaring the victim dead.
Or, if he is suposed to reappear, assumingly dead.

-Crack

[eruditus]

Its hard coming back to an old thread so i apologize if I sound like I'm beating any dead horses :D

I like Manicracks perspective on this. Putting such things as muder/sacrifice firmly in the hands of the GM allows for a more compelling story. Its harder and should be given more than a cursury attack roll.

[Blackberry]

Kublai: The healing times aren't the point. What I'm saying is that mechanically speaking, it's impossible for someone of even exceptional strength (B6) to kill someone of average constitution in one blow with a knife, even if the other person is unconscious at their feet. That doesn't seem right to me.

The game isn't a perfect simulation as it is -- it's a game system. If they should be dead, the GM should say they are dead. Dramatic license is allowed even when the game system seems to go against the laws of physics.

[eruditus]

Blackberry hit it on the head (and surprise, surprise, it didn't die... sorry :roll: )

Anyway, I understand the impulse to have rules that cover everything as realistically as possible however, then you begin to start crossing the line of realism vs playability.

I have always said that rules are for people who can't make decisions (and recently has been expanded to "and players that do not trust their GMS.") If the story, your fellow players and the GM all think it would add more to the game the sure, your victim is dead. besides, half the time your fighting mooks who will be down for the count and you don't have to worry about them getting back up ;)