Positioning Tests & Multiple Opponents

[foxandwarlock]

A long time ago, my group gave The Riddle of Steel a try. We liked the grittiness and some of the other player driven stuff but I have to say there wasn't a single session that we didn't have an argument about the "Terrain" rolls - they are the equivalent to the Positioning tests in BW.

Our biggest issue was always the multiple opponents thing. Having read through The Fight! section and the examples, I noticed that its always one on one...but for our particular BW campaign its almost always multiple minions against a single hero.

With that scenario in mind (3 goblins vs. 1 PC) let me ask:

1. Do they each make a Positioning test or do 2 of the goblins give their +1D Help Die to the third Goblin who makes a single Positioning test.

2. If more then two people roll Positioning tests in a given Exchange, does only the overall winner achieve his intent? What if the winner's intent affects only 1 of the opponents - his dice roll still somehow stops the other opponent from acting even though he wasn't focused on him?

3. If I am in melee and I change striking distances with one opponent, what does that mean for the other opponents arrayed against me. So let's say that the three goblins have me ringed in. I get inside Goblin #1, but what striking distance does that put the other goblins in when they want to attack me?

I guess, in general, we were placed into a lot of situations in TROS were the resolution of the Terrain roll and its gameplay impacts just didn't seem to make sense. In addition, tt was very common sensical one on one but it suddenly became very hard to keep track of who was in whose striking range when multiple opponents came into play (I'm inside of this guy so I have no penalty but if I want to reach out and whack Goblin #2 what range is he in if I'm Inside Goblin #1?, etc) I'm just looking for some direction on how to handle those kind of situations. Luke and Company, can you guys shed some light on this?

[Thor Olavsrud]

You have two options in a Positioning test. You can work together and give Helping Dice to one person. This requires coordination. You must script the SAME Positioning Maneuver in order to help each other.

If you do not Help each other, look at your individual scores. Let's say your character is facing two guys who are not Helping each other, and you beat one guy in your Positioning test but lose to the other.

So you're fighting against two Orcs. You're in Optimal Striking Distance and want to make it harder for them to hit you, so you script Withdraw. Orc A scripts a Maintain and Orc B scripts a Close. You get 4 successes in your Positioning test. Orc A gets 2 successes and Orc B gets 5 successes.

You successfully Withdraw from Orc A. In fact, you did well enough (2 successes over Ob) to move completely Out of Striking Distance for him. However, Orc B beat you, so he is now Inside Striking Distance.

[luke]

With that scenario in mind (3 goblins vs. 1 PC) let me ask:

1. Do they each make a Positioning test or do 2 of the goblins give their +1D Help Die to the third Goblin who makes a single Positioning test.

2. If more then two people roll Positioning tests in a given Exchange, does only the overall winner achieve his intent? What if the winner's intent affects only 1 of the opponents - his dice roll still somehow stops the other opponent from acting even though he wasn't focused on him?

3. If I am in melee and I change striking distances with one opponent, what does that mean for the other opponents arrayed against me. So let's say that the three goblins have me ringed in. I get inside Goblin #1, but what striking distance does that put the other goblins in when they want to attack me?

1: It's the GM's option. He can roll for them individually or he can help. Honestly, I'd help. It's simpler and more effective.

2: It becomes a hierarchy of intent, highest successes on down to lowest successes. Everyone gets to try to change their position, but everyone must also choose who they are positioning against. But everyone only rolls once! So you might slam into someone who you beat, but get closed on by another character who beat you.

3: Technically, your fighting distance with the other opponents doesn't change. I might modify this slightly if all were helping, using the same maneuver/stats and at the same initial fighting distance -- ie, you slam into the pack of goblins and you all go down in a heap. Of course, that's hard to do if they are all helping with ND, too.


The best guideline I have is to try to break down fights into the smallest groups possible -- if you've got 4 vs 2, break it into two 2 vs 1s. And whenever someone wants to change distance from another character, make that positioning test!

-L

[Angaros]

How are Reflex and Longest weapon dice assessed when fighting multiple opponents? From Thor's example above. Say Orc A is all 5s and wields a knife, while Orc B is all 3s and wields a spear, while the character is all 4s and wields a sword. Who would get bonus dice for higher reflexes and longer weapon? The character has a longer weapon than one opponent but shorter than the other, and is faster than one but slower than the other...

[Kublai]

Breaking down the fight into smaller group is a natural thing for GMs. I did it myself in a recent big battle. But there is a danger in this which I myself experienced.

There was a time when there were 12 opponents in a battle and it broke down into 2 groups of 4 vs 2. Well, it worked fine until 1 person wanted to attack a enemy in the other group in the middle of a Volley. There had been no Positioning test made between the two groups, so we had no idea where the two were in relation to each other.

I disliked that feeling that the two weren't interacting and that there was two battles instead of one large one.

[Thor Olavsrud]

How are Reflex and Longest weapon dice assessed when fighting multiple opponents? From Thor's example above. Say Orc A is all 5s and wields a knife, while Orc B is all 3s and wields a spear, while the character is all 4s and wields a sword. Who would get bonus dice for higher reflexes and longer weapon? The character has a longer weapon than one opponent but shorter than the other, and is faster than one but slower than the other...

Longest Weapon and Highest Reflexes ONLY go to the character with the Longest Weapon and the Highest Reflexes. In this example, Orc A would get the Reflexes die and Orc B would get the Longest Weapon die. Period.

[luke]

How are Reflex and Longest weapon dice assessed when fighting multiple opponents? From Thor's example above. Say Orc A is all 5s and wields a knife, while Orc B is all 3s and wields a spear, while the character is all 4s and wields a sword. Who would get bonus dice for higher reflexes and longer weapon? The character has a longer weapon than one opponent but shorter than the other, and is faster than one but slower than the other...


The player would obviously use his advantages where he could -- if he declared his INTENT to position against the knife-weilding orc, he's going to get a bonus die to position.

But in this case, it doesn't matter. He gets a bonus die against either opponent. He's either got a longer weapon or faster Reflexes.

The Orcs would get their bonus dice, too. Longer weapon and faster Reflexes, if they positioned separately. If they helped, the PC would square off against the primary -- say the Spearbearer. Thus it'd be B4 Speed plus longer weapon, plus help. The PC would get his B4 Speed plus Reflexes.

See, it ain't so bad.
-L

EDIT: IGNORE THE IDIOT BEHIND THE CURTAIN AND JUST DO WHAT THOR SAYS: THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE LONGEST WEAPON ADVANTAGE DIE AND ONE REFLEXES ADVANTAGE DIE PER GROUP, PER FIGHT.

[Thunder_God]

P. 147, "Move and Shoot Disadvantage".

It says you gain a +1 Ob even if you chose to Maintain, but then, you didn't move, what gives?

[Redoid]

Because, well, maintaining distance with someone trying to get near you imply, in a way, retreating a little or sidestepping it. I don't think the failure of the enemy's positionning test reflect its inability to actually cross the distance toward you. Immobility is not taking part in any positionning test, ensuring your opponents approach: the Let them come rule.

Even if two fighters choose to maintain in a sword fight, I envision this action as a move, trying to turn around your enemy and attack him from a flank, and not as simply standing still.

[Thor Olavsrud]

As Redoid said, Maintaining is not standing still. If you want to stand still, choose the Let 'Em Come option. Maintaining involves sprinting forward, backpedaling, and circling in order to keep your opponents at the same distance.

[Thunder_God]

Hmm, thanks.

I get the need to play Great Wolves and Elves, but no one to play with.

Got my books yesterday morning :)