Range and Cover - Closing, Withdrawing

[LordSmerf]

I'm going to be asking my Revision questions piecemill as opposed to all in a big bunch. You have been warned. (I think Will is compiling a master list, those will probably get posted all at once eventually.)

The Burning Wheel, Range and Cover, page 134, "Winning the Position" states: "...If he scripted a Close he advances one range category (of his enemy's weapon)..." -emphasis added.

This seems... problematic... If I have the longer ranged weapon and we are both Out of Range, in order to get into range I must also advance into my enemy's range? If I'm at extreme range and my enemy is out of range, I have to close twice to get him into range: once to put him into extreme range and then once to put him in optimal range?

Or am I misreading something....?

Thomas

[luke]

knives vs crossbow.

first off all, when determining starting position, there's really no "close/withdraw/maintain." Each player is simply declaring his desired and intended range for the coming conflict.

So that initial tests sets range, and can result in one chararcter being out of range and another being in range.

Once in the scripted conflict, we have to deal with relative maneuver. The knife thrower wants to close with his opponent, the crossbowman. He's got to deal with the fact that he's 90 paces out of range for his own weapon. Therefore, when he closes, he uses his opponent's ranges -- goes from out of range for the crossbow to extreme, say. He's still not in range for his own weapon.

On the flipside, say the crossbow man wants to get in close so he can personally beat the shit out of the knife thrower. Now we give the knife thrower the benefit of the doubt. When the crossbowman moves from his own extreme range to his optimal, he's also moving from the knife thrower's out of range category to his extreme.

Doesn't mean the knife thrower is going to actually WIN one of those conflicts, but at least he's got a shot.

-L

[LordSmerf]

Aha! Perhaps I see where I was confused now. I was thinking that if me and my crossbow were at extreme range (putting you and your knife out of range) and I scripted close we would advance to Me at Extreme Range, you at Extremem range. Gaining me no benefit, but gaining you the ability to shoot me.

Were you intending that in addition to closing my own range, I would be closing yours as well?

Thomas

[luke]

Were you intending that in addition to closing my own range, I would be closing yours as well?

Thomas

i don't have my books with me (travesty, I know), and I can't remember the last six months of my life, but didn't I write a big section about relative ranges of missile weapons? and what it means for one weapon to be at a certain range with another?

i sure hope I did. i bet that might solve at least some misunderstandings.
-L

[donbaloo]

Sorry to dredge this up from earlier in the month but it gets close to answering some questions I have, just not quite all the way. So, in Range and Cover, when you win positioning you are always using your opponent's ranges for movement. I've got that. The example from the book and "My Range is Longer than Your Range" [hereafter MRLYR] (pp.134-136) seem to refer to the winner positioning with his ranges though, but maybe its in my reading. In the crossbowmen vs. knife flipper example we're using here...1) If the crossbowman wins initial positioning he declares position based on his ranges right? If the answer to this is NO then question's 2 and 3 irrelevant. 2) If he declares he's at extreme range then the knifer is at out of range? 3) According to MRLYR he could even declare himself at Optimal Range and the Knifer at out of range (since he has over 10x the maximum range of the knifer), right? 3b) If he can place himself at optimal and the knifer at out of range, what happens when the knifer wins the next positioning test with a close...does he close himself to optional or is he suddenly too close to shoot?

But say both opponents start at out of range. Crossbowmen wins the first volley with a close. He advances, supposedly, using the knifer's ranges which puts him at extreme range but optimal range for himself. 4) But MRLYR says he can position himself at out of range for the knife and optimal range for himself, correct? 5) If the knifer wins the original positioning can he declare their position to be both at out of range?

6) In the books example (pp134-135) why does Dro only get 2D for his crossbow when its extreme range is 3D?
7) Why does he thereafter only get 1D for positioning with his crossbow when it grants 2D at optimal range?

Finally, 8 ) Can Stealth not be used in the initial positioning test at all? Seems like Thor's assassin in the example, who was in ambush mode, should be allowed a Stealth positioning since he was lying in wait for Dro's character. How would you guys handle this in game as GMs?

Muahhahahaha...the Village Idiot strikes again!!!! 8)

Edited to add question 3b.

[luke]

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.
3b) The knife thrower would move from OUT OF RANGE to EXTREME RANGE for his own weapon. But he'd remain in Optimal for the crossbow.
4) Yes.
5) Yes.
6) I dunno. An oversight, I guess. Doesn't really matter as long as both sides are using either Optimal dice or Extreme range dice.
7) That's an honest to goodness mistake. Damn. In the playtest rules, crossbows had 1D at optimal.
8) We usually restrict initial positioning to Speed. You won't break the game if you use other VS test combinations. Use them at your discretion.

-L

[donbaloo]

More thoughts on this topic...

Is a Steel positioning maneuver ever used that much in game? It seems overwhelmingly dangerous especially since in all my practice Fight! bouts I've never once seen a Steel test passed.

Also, I realize that movement and distances in BW combat are pretty abstracted but do you guys ever have trouble with swallowing those abstractions from time to time? Specifically in an instance such as this...My opponent and I are both throwing knives and are out of range from one another. This could feasibly be as little as 11 paces (yards). Lets say I use a Steel Close and actually succeed. Now I imagine that I just bucked up and am running like a madman at my opponent with a crazed look in my eyes. But I only get to close to Extreme range. Now I have to win another positioning test to close to optimal and then yet another to actually make it to Too Close to Shoot. Its only taking me a couple of seconds to cover that 11 yards but even if my opponent wins positioning in the next two positioning test, even with a close, he may have thrown two or three more knives at me by the time I get there. Does this jive for you guys?

[luke]

so what you're saying is that your opponent stands like a manaquin, unmoving, perhaps staring at his shiny knives?

I think giving attackers/defenders three chances to get it right is a good guideline. But I'm not the most impartial person to discuss this with.

We use Steel positioning all the time.

-L

[donbaloo]

so what you're saying is that your opponent stands like a manaquin, unmoving, perhaps staring at his shiny knives?


Well, no, but if we're at 11 paces and both scripting closes, just how many knives should reasonably be thrown in that couple of seconds?

[Thor Olavsrud]

Eh. If you're spending dice to throw, you aren't going straight in. You're stutter stepping, moving just a little closer, trying to present a small target to your opponent, etc. If you're not spending dice to throw, it doesn't really matter, right? Time is flexible in this instance.

As for Steel, it's pretty easy to design characters that have good Steel and low Hesitation. You just need to give yourself a high Will and make sure you can answer yes to four or five of the questions. Anyway, check out the Formation Fighting Training. It allows groups of guys to Help each other with Steel maneuvers in Range and Cover. That's what it's for.

[donbaloo]

Eh. If you're spending dice to throw, you aren't going straight in. You're stutter stepping, moving just a little closer, trying to present a small target to your opponent, etc. If you're not spending dice to throw, it doesn't really matter, right? Time is flexible in this instance.

Yeah, that's a reasonable take on it. I still have to wonder though...if I'm 11 paces out from the knife thrower is there nothing I can do to immediately close that short distance and be within grabbing distance of him with one positioning test...especially if he's closing as well? Its just hard to imagine me successfully Steel closing from that distance while he's closing (although failing against my close) but having to suffer through 3 knife tosses before I even get to the positioning tests in Fight! to tackle him. That's a lot of edged steel being tossed my way in a very short distance and time while I charge directly to my opponent.

[luke]

dude, we've got a whole 'nuther chapter to deal with this. The GM can declare that the conflict is starting Too Close to Shoot and use the Fight mechanics to resolve said dispute.

Knives aren't really meant for Range and Cover anyway. Way too short ranged.

-L

[Thor Olavsrud]

I still have to wonder though...if I'm 11 paces out from the knife thrower is there nothing I can do to immediately close that short distance and be within grabbing distance of him with one positioning test...especially if he's closing as well?

What abzu said. And the best thing you can do is to make sure you win the Initial positioning test. Then you won't have to pass through Out of Range and Optimal Range. You just declare the conflict to start at Optimal range and have to Close to Too Close to Shoot.

[donbaloo]

Okay, I can rest on that. Thanks for clearing that up for me.