Killing off a player character

[csjames75]

Given the potential lethality of the Burning Wheel game, I was just curious how often characters died in your more lengthy campaigns. Like on average, once every three session? Once every nine sessions? Never.

How do you balance that delicate line between making things too frustratingly lethal and not engendering a real sense of potentially deadly consequences in the game play.

What makes a character death part of the narrative and satisfying and what just feels "nasty, short and brutish?"

Thanks


Christopher

[Mickeroo]

I'd say it really depends on how often you get into combat. I've played sessions where people only faught with thier minds (and I don't mean magic).

People don't necessarily have to die, just be knocked out for a while due to recovery time. They can take that time to practice skills (I'm assuming) as long as they aren't strenuous, such as academic skills. Taking a mortal wound doesn't have to be lethal (althought it sounds it) but it still puts out a real sense of danger.

If you use combat sparilgly, like only in campaign important settings, then I think any death will be satisfying. If someone gets killed in a random encounter (which there really shouldn't be any of anyway) then that might be frowned upon. In general, if the PCs are looking for a fight and will earn something substantial for it, then it's ok if they die, in my opinion. Just try not to kill off the whole party in one shot.

ALso, page 70 of the revised book, the complications rule. Read up on that and try to encourage players to incorporate that.

[Thor Olavsrud]

There IS character death on occasion, but it happens much less frequently than you might think. First, characters tend to go into combat only when it's important to them. You tend to avoid meaningless combat because it's freaking dangerous!

Second, in my experience, failed Steel results and Hesitation tend to be far more common than actual death as a result of combat. You have to roll REALLY well to take someone out in one shot. Generally, you'll take them down a few dice with a Midi or Severe wound, and their Steel will be reduced to the point that it is extremely unlikely to pass a Steel test. At that point, characters tend to run or plead for their lives.

It IS slightly more difficult to run under the new rules, as it requires a successful Positioning test, but people tend to have a bit of difficulty running people through from the back or murdering someone that is pleading for his life.

Finally, incapacitation due to wounds is nearly as frequent as failed Steel results.

[csjames75]

Good stuff. I agree completely that character death during a random encounter is mostly unsatisfying to anyone. Also, you are right Thor, the system slants heavily toward running away after a failed steel test or having wounds that incapacitate rather than kill.

So what about incapacitating wounds. Do you go strictly by the book on recovery times or have either campaign elements (herbs or healing style spells or potions) or revised recovery time tables to get players up and moving again faster?

[Mickeroo]

I once let a priest use a minor miracle to reduce healing time, but that's only because he didn't know the system too well and scripted strikes only because he thought he would be able to get a parry or dodge action for free (as in rifts). However I would not recomend doing this. It does say you can use a minor miracle to stop bleeding though.

I don't know about miracle though (the ob 10 one) I mean, it would seem that parting the seas would be harder than healing a severe wound.

As for herbs and potions, I think those are figured into the herbalism skill.

[Kublai]

In my campaigns, I've only had one player death and that was caused by completely and horribly failing a Tax test. There was nothing I could do, but at least the death was heroic and completely within the goal of the campaign.

Everyone else has been at one point or another taken out by smaller wounds. When this happens, I use the rules as printed. However, if I wish to speed things up, sometimes the healer might get his hands on that special herb that will grant an extra 1D to recovery, a blessing by a priest for 1D, or even a draught of Dwarf Nog for an extra 1D!

And as a final note, combats are only had when there's no other choice. I and my players all know the consequences of drawing steel.

[Viper]

Well, The one burning wheel campaign i ran had a strict six-session limit, and I didn't feel right having players getting knocked out of the action for even one session, because I didn't want people to be sitting around doing nothing and feeling cheated, or having to play a secondary character while their main recovered. By cheated, I mean, both in time and money, as this was a game played in a shared space that everyone chipped in money for.

So, my quick and dirty solution, since my campaign had certain technological elements, was to allow players to take painkiller drugs. What I basically did was, once they had a chance to rest up (and shoot up), they could ignore the effects of up to a midi wound. This effect would last until they got wounded again- in which case they would suffer the effects of the new wound AND the old one. This had the effect of making them more cautious as time went on, but still not afraid to mix it up. I wanted to have some sort of addiction thing going on, with detrimental effects for the more painkillers they took, but I didn't have time to work anything out.

I'm the first to admit it was an imperfect solution, and something of a stopgap measure, but it worked for the campaign, and everyone wound up having a great time.

[Mickeroo]

If you want to avoid combat, you might want to try this:

Pick out the strongest player in your group (player, not thier character). Have him/her punch somone (not you) in the arm as hard as he/she can. Then tell all of the players (above the cries of the punched) that that was about a b3 wound, and that the number system is kind of exponential, so they can imagine taking a b8.

Desired effect - Players will think twice about getting into combat, thus reducing chances of death.

[Thor Olavsrud]

So what about incapacitating wounds. Do you go strictly by the book on recovery times or have either campaign elements (herbs or healing style spells or potions) or revised recovery time tables to get players up and moving again faster?

Notice that successful Treatment tests add Advantage dice to the Recovery test. Extra successes on the Recovery roll (a Health test) reduce your Recovery time.

So let's say you have a Midi wound that my character is Treating with Surgery (Ob 3). I double my dice with a Deeds point and roll 7 successes on my Surgery roll. You get +4D to your Recovery roll.

You then roll your B5 Health +4D (a total of 7D) against Ob 3 (for a Midi wound) to recover). You get 4 successes, and then open-end a 6 with a Fate point to get a total of 5 successes.

Let's say we've determined that it takes 10 weeks to recover from a Midi wound (the book says between 2 and 12). Your first three successes allow you to Recover. The additional two successes reduce your Recovery time by 10% each. So you will Recover in 8 weeks. You Recover your first Wounded die immediately after you make the successful Recovery test. You get the second Wounded die back after the 8 weeks.

If you want Healing potions and such, look at Mirror-Wine and Elven Bread in the Elven equipment lists. These add dice to Health tests.

[csjames75]

Hmm, punching one of my players to show exactly what a Superficial wound is. Very interesting theory. I might give that a go.

The way I use herbalism is that you can test your skill in the woods and potentially find (after searching for four hours) either a rare herb (ob 3) or a magical herb (ob4). There is a magical herb called Heal All which looks like a reed that, when administered, halves the healing time.

That and tests of Faith are the only rules modifiers I've been using to alter healing methods so far.

Still, I think in the next session, I'm going to include an aged Runecaster's ability to use a rune that will Help Finish Things Left Unfinished to allow someone who took a severe to, after a week of rest, be healed to the point where any subsequent wounds will reopen the old wound., but the old wound is a midi for the time being.

And this is only the second combat we've had so far in the campaign. The first one, against a bear, knocked out a critical NPC that I had to write around.

[Kublai]

The way I use herbalism is that you can test your skill in the woods and potentially find (after searching for four hours) either a rare herb (ob 3) or a magical herb (ob4). There is a magical herb called Heal All which looks like a reed that, when administered, halves the healing time.

Old school's in the hiz-house!

You should try playing the recovery rules as written. It makes more better play, I feel, but it does take some teeth grittin' on the players' side.

The way I'd use your rare or magic Herbs is that rare (Ob3-4) allows a +1D to the Herbalism test to treat a wound, while the Magic Herb (Ob5-6) will make the Herbalism test open-ended like a magic spell!

BW really REALLY tries to get away from the Jesus-sydrome of healing. This is when players lose their fear of being hurt in combat because they know there is no consequences. ::coughcoughdnd:: ::hackspitshadowrun::

[csjames75]

True that might be better. I suppose an automatic halving of the heal time is a pretty major power. Better to just tweak the mechanics than allow for an automatic success.

I suppose players are just going to have to learn to avoid combat more.

[csjames75]

So what's the emotional impact of the Total Party Kill? Are friend's lost and does your name get spit out at the mention of it? How upset have people become on you? Conversely, have you ever had a player lose interest and seek to die in your campaign?

[Kublai]

I've never witnessed a TPK in all my 20 years of playing! Is that a rare thing? I think, unless the scenario called for such as in Poisonous Ambition or something, that I would be utterly destroyed and think the entire thing was a waste of time.

[Thor Olavsrud]

I suppose players are just going to have to learn to avoid combat more.

The other option is to present scenarios that don't fall apart if the PCs take a few months off between goals. That downtime is important -- allowing you to replenish taxed Resources, establish new Contacts through Circles, etc.

I've never seen a TPK in Burning Wheel, aside from the Poisonous Ambition/The Gift/The Next of Webs demo scenarios.

[Redoid]

BW really REALLY tries to get away from the Jesus-sydrome of healing. This is when players lose their fear of being hurt in combat because they know there is no consequences. ::coughcoughdnd:: ::hackspitshadowrun::

Yeah, meaningful combat consequences help the players not to jump into combat, like their characters would do. In D&D, effectiveness doesn't decrease until you're dead, and as a result, people will enter fight thinking "I am 87% operational, and I expect this fight will take me to 30%, so I will have to rest after, while the spellcasters heal me up in the 70-80% range". Not quite what the characters would think when engaging a sword-wielding enemy... Have you ever heard (and sighed) when a player said "I am moderately hurt, don't waste that major healing potion, I'll wait to be hurt more before using it"? :roll:

In a campaign, it's important to have downtime between episodes, and not have characters chaining adventures upon adventures, without recovery time. Don't forget travel, it was slow to go from point A to point B even in the best conditions, and it's an opportunity to insert recovery time.

On the other hand, magic is powerful, and I can't rationalize that healing the wounded is more difficult than parting the seas... Having a spell that let a characters ignore the effect of a single wound could be cool, if of a sustained duration (but ambitious mages would quickly use the abstraction mechanism to cast it with a "days" duration, defeating the purpose of the limitation).

[Thor Olavsrud]

On the other hand, magic is powerful, and I can't rationalize that healing the wounded is more difficult than parting the seas... Having a spell that let a characters ignore the effect of a single wound could be cool, if of a sustained duration (but ambitious mages would quickly use the abstraction mechanism to cast it with a "days" duration, defeating the purpose of the limitation).

Make sure to check out my Blessed Hands spell in the Character Burner!

[luke]

Not to get back on topic, or anything...

Burning Wheel, as a system, gives player and GM a high degree of control. Not only do you get to predetermine the threat level (just like every other game), but you literally get to control every freaking action of a character in play.

So when your intent is to kill, you've got to get behind it -- and everybody knows it.

Therefore, scenarios can be structured to accomodate the death level you're after.

In my one-offs, I'm always a little disappointed if there isn't carnage. Multiple, brutal character deaths are the order of the day.

In longer-term games, I don't set the stakes quite so high to start and I often let the players choose their battles. And in the battles, I use my system/control to ensure that, while there is a threat, that nothing terribly unintended happens. For example, I don't always use the smartest strategy, nor do i let my villains spend artha like a PC would.

Still, I do push the limits and toy with the level of tension. If, in the climax of a martial conflict oriented adventure, there isn't at least one mortal wound, I'm sad. Pour on the badness at the end -- pull out all the stops -- and let the players know that everything is on the line. It makes it quite dramatic, especially as players are dropping out one by one, turning to their friends with desperate looks upon their faces!

In one of the recent runs we did -- 10 sessions maybe -- we had 3 mortal wounds and a bunch of lesser wounds. But we also had three successful recoveries (with some new traits. :twisted: ). I was very generous on the recoveries, too. The players wanted their characters back in and were prepared to pay by taking a set of debilitating traits.

Last night, I opened up a trial by combat with a shot from a giant -- a hurled rock -- slamming into one of the players. B13, Mortal Wound to him. But, he made his armor test. Damn, if he wasn't sweating bullets!

hope that helps,
-L

[Redoid]

I was very generous on the recoveries, too. The players wanted their characters back in and were prepared to pay by taking a set of debilitating traits.


You're a genius. Trading shortened recovery times with "bad recovery because you didn't take the time to let the wound heal fully and now you suffer some long-term penalty, not as harsh as the wound, but making your life harder anyway..." Better, it empowers the player, their character decides to ignore the advice of the doctor and not avoid too strenuous efforts (reflected by lowered dice pool) compromizing their full recovery.