About the BW Demo and a few other questions..

[Digital Apex]

Hello,

I'm new to these forums and to Burning Wheel game but I have a few questions. I hope I'm not repeating anyone else's questions, and if so, my apologies. After downloading all the content on the web site and reading it all over, I am a bit to excited to remember all the questions I would want to ask if I dont ask them now. :D

I was wondering if there was an introduction to the actual game, or maybe even a quick start so I can try out before I buy it? I ask this because in the Burning Wheel "demo" that is on the web site, it says that you need to be familiar with the BW rules. So I would assume that the adventure would need more than what is provided on the web site and that it is used primarily for conventions and in-store demos.

As mentioned above, I am very interested in this game and even if there are no "fastplay" rules for BW I will still order it this week. The whole idea and presentation are phenomenal, and I'm very impressed and quite excited by what I have read so far.

A few questions though, how does the magic system compare to others on the market today and what would be the closest example to what BW is like in practice? What are the various type of systems and subsystems within it? Lastly, is it fun to use?

Also, my wife would like to know if it is easy to create a character, and if so is this something other than a nebulous " I have X number of points to spend on whatever I want to play"? FYI she hates the idea of freeform character design, but she is also dissatisfied with the established "class" system of D&D. She wants to make decisions on how the character will be made, but she would like a structure to do so within.

Last question, where does the BW combat system rank in at on a lethality scale of 1 to 10? (1 = Real life and 10 = Dude, massive bloodloss and cranial hemorrhaging from traumatic wounds? While suffering from reentry because the Dragon took me into space and then chucked me back into the atmosphere? No sweat, I have enough hit points to survive it all.)


Thanks a bunch,
Digital Apex

[Kublai]

Hello,

I'm new to these forums and to Burning Wheel game but I have a few questions. I hope I'm not repeating anyone else's questions, and if so, my apologies. After downloading all the content on the web site and reading it all over, I am a bit to excited to remember all the questions I would want to ask if I dont ask them now. :D

I was wondering if there was an introduction to the actual game, or maybe even a quick start so I can try out before I buy it? I ask this because in the Burning Wheel "demo" that is on the web site, it says that you need to be familiar with the BW rules. So I would assume that the adventure would need more than what is provided on the web site and that it is used primarily for conventions and in-store demos.


Welcome, DigitalApex! :D I am Kublai, long-time player of BW (if such a thing exists!). I am so glad you are excited about BW! It's a great game with much potential. As you can see from the host of beta-rules and extra lifepaths and traits, it's also constantly evolving, so feel free to suggest any ideas you may have.

As for your first question, there are no BW quickstart rules. There are examples of rules pages and a basic introduction, but nothing complete enough to run a BW game without buying the books.

[Kublai]

A few questions though, how does the magic system compare to others on the market today and what would be the closest example to what BW is like in practice? What are the various type of systems and subsystems within it? Lastly, is it fun to use?


Magic was always a bit different in BW. It's roots come from Shadowrun, one of the first games we played that allowed mages to cast an unlimited amount of spells - just so long as his body could keep it up. Unfortunately, I am a gaming-shut-in and have little experience with other current systems.

But, as you see from the new Magic Chapters, BW just took off by leaps and bounds in the sorcery department. Abstractions is a great new rule set that allows wizards to cast magic on the fly - without proper spells and from the mixture of 5 basic facets. It's a blast and can be quite the drama-queen... every time our sorcerer uses raw facets, we cringe as we await the roll of the dice to tell us if he succeeded in his intent - or it's time once again to "spin the Wheel of Magic!" The vast amount of facets really does allow your magician to cast just about anything he desires, which is really cool.

The Summoning Chapter is plain scary but has some real brilliance to it. Summoners can control nameless spirits to do their bidding, or they can go for it all and bargain with the Named ones. Our summoner was annhilitaed by a Rain of Fire spell, so I don't actually have much more experience. :(

Elf Songs are one of the truly unique aspects to BW magic. Inherent spells that take the place of skills - very cool. It's my favorite magic system... evar.

I dunno much about the new Orc Hatred, although I understand that an Orc can now torture his victims to get even more power out of a spell. Yippee! :shock:

[Kublai]

Also, my wife would like to know if it is easy to create a character, and if so is this something other than a nebulous " I have X number of points to spend on whatever I want to play"? FYI she hates the idea of freeform character design, but she is also dissatisfied with the established "class" system of D&D. She wants to make decisions on how the character will be made, but she would like a structure to do so within.


BW uses the lifepaths which are similar in theory to WHFRPG rules, but BW does it right! :wink:

The best way to create a Burner is to 1st imagine him right before he goes on his first adventure. Then choose the proper lifepaths to get to that point. So this is what happens:
-Choose Lifepaths (some of which require others)
-The LPs give you categories of points; Age, Skills Pts, resources, and traits. Age gives you your basic Stat pools, which are supplemented by bonuses gained in certain LPs.
-Then arrange the numbers how you like. Fortunately, BW has built in balancers that really discourage number-crunching (though that is still certainly possible!) Skills are rooted off Stats to begin with and then increased with Skill Points earned in LPs.
-Finally, the best part is determining your BITs: Beliefs, Instincts, and Traits. This part of chargen is a blast and suddenly your numbers become flesh!

The system allows you to create the character that you desire, but within a well-balanced and structured system.

There are a lot of Characters available on the site besides the downloadable ones. http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=13&topic=&allstories=1

[Kublai]

Last question, where does the BW combat system rank in at on a lethality scale of 1 to 10? (1 = Real life and 10 = Dude, massive bloodloss and cranial hemorrhaging from traumatic wounds? While suffering from reentry because the Dragon took me into space and then chucked me back into the atmosphere? No sweat, I have enough hit points to survive it all.)

I hope it won't be your last question! ;)

BW is definitely on the realistic side of the curve when it comes to lethality... I'd give it an 8 or so. Yagathai is trying to bump this to a 10, however! :wink:

Characters have variable Mortal Wounds, which means certain damage effects characters... variably. This is a great part of BW! And yes, daggers can take down a person in a single stroke! Hurray! A single hunting arrow can bring down the fiercest of enemies! Yippee! (Wait... is that a good thing? :? )

What BW does promote is that most combats are won by frightening off the other side. Steel is your ability to withstand shock, horror, and pain. Certain things like wounds cause you to take a Steel test. This often means a moment's Hesitation when you have to make a choice: Stay, drool, and be cut down or flee for your lives! If you played the demo, you know that fleeing is a fine option for anyone to take!

[Drozdal]

Hi DigitalApex

Abstractions is a great new rule set that allows wizards to cast magic on the fly - without proper spells and from the mixture of 5 basic facets.
It sounds like Ars Magica spontaneous magic (which is one of the best magic system ever created) but is much more deadlier (and because of that i adore it) :), the coolest thing about abstraction rules is: your mage can with those rules develop new spells, or variations of existing ones, that takes a lot of time but the thrill of creating your own spell is hard to resist :)

Drozdal

[Drozdal]

Here are likns to other part of the forums with two complete new lifepaths:
http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88
http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=119
I think after reading those you get a better idea what are those lifepaths about :)

Drozdal

[Kublai]

BW is definitely on the realistic side of the curve when it comes to lethality... I'd give it an 8 or so. Yagathai is trying to bump this to a 10, however! :wink:


Oops! I realized I went the wrong way on your scale! if 1=real life lethality, than BW is a 2! :oops:

[Digital Apex]

BW is definitely on the realistic side of the curve when it comes to lethality... I'd give it an 8 or so. Yagathai is trying to bump this to a 10, however! :wink:


Oops! I realized I went the wrong way on your scale! if 1=real life lethality, than BW is a 2! :oops:

I was wondering about that. :wink:

BTW how hard is it for a character to die in BW?

[Kublai]

BTW how hard is it for a character to die in BW?

What a subjective question!

One answer is relative to the intelligence and cunning of the player. But of course, this holds true in any game! :) If you play it smart and act with appropriate response, death shouldn't be a worry for most players. But for those who leap before they look, I guess I should move on to answering your question in a more mechanical manner.

It is difficult for any character to die in BW combat. Unless the character is hit with a Superb blow from a stong opponent or an archer gets lucky on the DOF, then in most cases you're "down but not out." Wounds that are higher than your Mortal Wound are difficult to achieve for the most part (except if there is a sorcerer with White Fire! :evil: ).

Wounds take off dice from your stats. Once a Stat reaches zero, your are incapacitated; if Mental, you are unconcious; if Physical you are aware but unable to move. Your character can reach zero from any number of combination of wounds; from a whole slew of minor scrapes and Superficials to several Mod wounds to one traumatic wound.

Once you are down, keeping you alive is relative to the combination of wounds you took to get to that point. As a rule of thumb, the more wounds you took before going down equals a better chance of living (Think about this. :twisted: It's easier to fix up 12 Superficials than it is to stitch up one Traumatic!).

There are bleeding rules, so once you do go down, there is a limited amount of time for someone to tend your wounds before you bleed to death. This time is fairly generous though, allowing some nice dramatic moments as you slip away. :)

Should you indeed survive, prepare for some realistic healing times. Priestly magic can aid your recovery, but there are no "Jesus" spells to get you back on your feet in a matter of moments.

[Digital Apex]

BTW how hard is it for a character to die in BW?

What a subjective question!

< SNIPITY >

Should you indeed survive, prepare for some realistic healing times. Priestly magic can aid your recovery, but there are no "Jesus" spells to get you back on your feet in a matter of moments.

I asked this question because my group loves to play fantasy in a "Heroic" style of play. On top of that my players are VERY gung-ho about heroic situations and love to go charging into the fray of battle. So I am hopeful that I would still be able to run the style of game in the Burning Wheel.

[Kublai]

I asked this question because my group loves to play fantasy in a "Heroic" style of play. On top of that my players are VERY gung-ho about heroic situations and love to go charging into the fray of battle.

Honestly, I am a super-gung-ho-type myself. In every system I've played, I took this role. I love wading through the masses and overcoming ludicrous obstacles. And this kind of stuff can be pulled off in BW - you just have to put a little thought into it. Once you understand the scripting system and have a handle on what Obstacle modifiers really mean, then being the all-ahead hero is very possible.

Examples:

-My character recently went head to head with a bandit army consisting of thousands. He killed the leader in the first few moments and then used his intimidation, oratory, and command skills to kowtow the rest.

-Our group attacks the Red Wizards city. Our sorcerer gets into a fierce magic duel with Rains of Fire being dispersed with Breath of Winds. Below, my character was engaging the enemy soldiers. It was awesome and magnificent!

Being heroic in other systems quickly became boring to me. There was no challenge after a point. But, in BW, there is always a real threat involved to any battle. When a slip in concentration or one luck shot can bring down the best of them, there's some real drama involved. And chances are, if you've played it right, you will overcome and walk away bleeding and broken but victorious!

[Digital Apex]

So far, the only thing that keeps BW from being perfect is that its only for fantasy. If only there were Sci-Fi rules...... Then I would have no need for other game systems. :idea:

That would be SO cool

P.S. I am ordering BW tomorrow, is there any way I can get a autographed copy?

[Drozdal]

P.S. I am ordering BW tomorrow, is there any way I can get a autographed copy?
AFAIK every copy is numbered - just drop Luke a line abouy autograph and he'll be happy to do it :)

Drozdal

[luke]

So far, the only thing that keeps BW from being perfect is that its only for fantasy. If only there were Sci-Fi rules...... Then I would have no need for other game systems. :idea:

That would be SO cool

P.S. I am ordering BW tomorrow, is there any way I can get a autographed copy?

don't get ahead of yourself, you haven't even read the rules yet! please reserve your apples and tomatoes until after you've had a chance to digest it.

And there will be Burning SF. Perhaps sooner than you think. The game is merely a system--albeit a good one--and it is adaptable to any setting. We've played SF, near-future, present day, cthulhu and fading suns with BW.

but anyway, wait until you read it before you say "perfect."
sheesh!
-abzu

[Digital Apex]

So far, the only thing that keeps BW from being perfect is that its only for fantasy. If only there were Sci-Fi rules...... Then I would have no need for other game systems. :idea:

That would be SO cool

P.S. I am ordering BW tomorrow, is there any way I can get a autographed copy?

don't get ahead of yourself, you haven't even read the rules yet! please reserve your apples and tomatoes until after you've had a chance to digest it.

And there will be Burning SF. Perhaps sooner than you think. The game is merely a system--albeit a good one--and it is adaptable to any setting. We've played SF, near-future, present day, cthulhu and fading suns with BW.

but anyway, wait until you read it before you say "perfect."
sheesh!
-abzu


Hold on there "Tex"......

I have been SCOURING the message boards to learn the game. On top of that I have read each and every page that I could download from the "downloads" area. I have read over the "first pages to each chapter" for 8 nights straight. So far I am ENAMORED with BW, it makes all of the games I want to create POSSIBLE. The whole idea of creating characters with an ACTUAL background with ease is INCREDIBLE! I LOVE the scripting combat and magic system from what I can piece together. The way I see it can only get better, nothing is perfect, but if it comes along when you need it, then it could be seen as being perfect for you.

I have run D&D almost exclusively for the last 22 years additionally I have completed a total of five campaign's with my current group of eight years. When I started the last campaign a year and a half ago I was burned out. I really didn't like third edition very much, but it was a vehicle for me to tell my stories. About a month ago we started on the finale to the campaign, and we are almost done. The problem was EVERYONE could tell that I needed a change but they could not figure out what to do about it. About a week ago I stumbled across some Burning Wheel reviews. I was looking for something to spark my interests and get the juices flowing. But WOW I was not expecting a fantasy game to have lifepaths like in Cyberpunk 2020 and GDW games. See I do not like working on systems, I write stories and articles for a living and do enough paperwork each day to choke a horse. As you could you imagine I don't have time to work on RPG mechanics or do much more than run my bi-weekly game and spend time with the family.

When I lucked upon BW and could see so many of the elements that I wanted in a RPG system finally in print, it was very hard to contain myself. Because of this discovery my group has become excited and worried. Excited, because so far the finale for the campaign is exceeding their expectations for reasons of my renewed creativity and interest. Worried, simply for the open door they gave me when they said "If you're tired of D&D we can switch to a different system. Just let us know and we will roll up some characters" Personally, I really think they will take well to the system and that I will be running BW for years to come.

FYI My wife was looking over the pregens from the website that I had printed out. Before I could get them back from her she had a REALLY good look at the sheet. From there I was bombarded with super-hyper-excited-questions for over an hour. Finally after avoiding her inquiries with deafening silence I turned to her dramatically and said "We Burn Characters two weeks from now, make sure everyone has plenty of d6s" and walked off. Fast forward 36 hours later which was yesterday, my mailbox from the rest of my group if full of questions of "Burn characters?", "How many d6s?", "Will we be starting out as plebiscite?", and "I hope there is magic, there BETTER be MAGIC". As you can see we are ALL very excited and over the next two weeks I am going to leak out parts of BW to them to add to their excitement, awe, and mystery That and it will help them become familiar with the rules in a unique way.

In the 10 years our group has known each other I have a gained a good grasp of what our tastes in gaming are. So please do not think me as jumping the gun in my judgement. Think of it as someone who can read through the adventures and campaigns area of the forum's and visualize the games talked about there. And after "sitting in" on those games I can tell I am going to love The Burning Wheel.

[luke]

I, most humbly, stand corrected.

:oops:


:wink:

[Digital Apex]

:shock: I am sorry, it was meant as a complement not a correction. :oops:

lol, now I am the one apologizing. :D

P.S. I think you have made a fine game from what I have learned so far. And IF it IS better than I expect you WILL see a review from me on RPG.net.

[nebulousmenace]

OK, as someone who was NOT involved with the game from the beginning, here are the good and the bad parts of my experience:

GOOD:

1. Character generation is cooler than ice cream. I can't think of a better chargen system.

2.It's not like other games. There are a lot of individual instances of this, but basically what I mean is that the things that Every Game Does. . .this game doesn't do. One tiny example: Getting wounded. In this game, superficial wounds (nicks on the arm, broken noses, general battering) CAN NOT kill you. Not like "12 1 HP wounds are the same as one 12 HP wound." Not like "You soaked all the damage; nothing got through at all." They can put you on the floor, but they can't kill you.

3. A lot of the "not like other games" stuff works really well. Fields of Related Knowledge, for instance. Using an axe is like using a sword, kinda, so if you know how to do one it helps with the other. Not too much, though. Just enough. You can "Fork in" another skill or several (Axe, Forking in Sword and Anatomy, for instance, to hit that crucial spot.)

BAD:

1.Some of the rules systems are very . . . inaccessible. The combat system is VERY different from nearly everything out there and I still haven't gotten the hang of it entirely. It produces good stories, but I just don't feel like it does what I expect. It's like I've been driving a car for 20 years and someone threw me the keys to an ornithopter. Maybe it'll be really cool when I get the hang of it.

2. This game requires a certain amount of audience participation- it's not "These are the rules; only an idiot would mess with them." It's more like "OK, it says here that you need Javelin skill to throw a spear. Spear won't do it, Thrown Weapon won't do it. I don't like that rule. Out with it."

3. There are some rules that are still kind of in flux- Artha [general experience/buttsaving], wound penalties, armor damage- you know, little things.

MISC:

1. I haven't really played around with the Magic Abstraction in an actual game. It's hugely different from Ars Magica's Spontaneous Magic in that it's very slow and very, very dangerous to try to cast a spell that nobody's ever done before. Which is as it should be. I haven't tried it out in game because I don't want to accidentally rip a hole in the planet's crust, so I don't have any real feel for whether it's even possible to cast a new spell and have it work. Regular magic can be very impressive, but it takes a lifetime to learn all the spells you want. [Just like in all the books!]

In general? I like it.

[Kublai]

1. I haven't really played around with the Magic Abstraction in an actual game. It's hugely different from Ars Magica's Spontaneous Magic in that it's very slow and very, very dangerous to try to cast a spell that nobody's ever done before. Which is as it should be. I haven't tried it out in game because I don't want to accidentally rip a hole in the planet's crust, so I don't have any real feel for whether it's even possible to cast a new spell and have it work. Regular magic can be very impressive, but it takes a lifetime to learn all the spells you want. [Just like in all the books!]

:lol: this comment makes my lips quiver in a fashion similar to laughing.

I played a young sorcerer who had a few facets... he dared not make a completely original spell! It certainly was possible, but he was just too wary of the possible consequences! Instead, modifying existing spells proved to be much safer!

[Digital Apex]

OK, as someone who was NOT involved with the game from the beginning, here are the good and the bad parts of my experience:

<SNIP!>

3. There are some rules that are still kind of in flux- Artha [general experience/buttsaving], wound penalties, armor damage- you know, little things.


In general? I like it.

Ok just to point out one thing about the Armor rule, I love the armor rules as they stand. I know they are not "realistic" but I dont want reality. So far reality has always been a very big hindrance to good story. That's why I really like BW, so far it makes everything seem like "real life" without making it unplayable. I NEED my players to survive for the story to work, but I also need them to think they can die at anytime. The main book armor rule makes me feel like an armored knight is like he was on the battlefield, a walking tank. Plus it is unique enough that it feels NOTHING like any other game I have seen or played.

Thats my 2 cents on armor.... Oops I went a bit off topic, Sorry about that.

[luke]

thank god someone gets it!

[Digital Apex]

thank god someone gets it!

LOL, most people argue over the smallest things. I was a Heavy Armor fighter for the SCA for 6 years. Simplicity is BEST when dealing with combat, especially when dealing with heavy armor. You really don't want to get into the details of ACTUALLY trying to hurt someone in a heavy plate and chain armor. You don't even want to get me started. Suffice it to say, I've spent too many long nights girding my friends IN my plate and chain giving them a heavy steel shield and a iron training sword. Then I would beat on them with a baseball bat while chasing them around the yard and ask them. "Are you sure you want to be realistic?"

So far, no one has ever complained about armor in my game.

[Kublai]

Suffice it to say, I've spent too many long nights girding my friends IN my plate and chain giving them a heavy steel shield and a iron training sword. Then I would beat on them with a baseball bat while chasing them around the yard and ask them. "Are you sure you want to be realistic?"

What an interesting life you must lead! :)

[eruditus]

Funny cause all the negatives I have heard from the above seem like positives to me :)

I have to say that I think BW has some rough edges however I think this game is surprisingly and subtley slick in a fashion unprecedented in other systems.

more on the magic system soon.... (I am saving up posts for a future flurry...boy do I have a lot to say ) :)

[eruditus]

A few questions though, how does the magic system compare to others on the market today and what would be the closest example to what BW is like in practice? What are the various type of systems and subsystems within it? Lastly, is it fun to use?
Digital Apex

Okay, a few words on the magic system because it does not look like anyone really addressed this for you...

BW magic is innovative to the extreme. Although somewhat like Ars Magica (as mentioned) it has one component (no pun intended) that is missing from every game out there... relevant casting times.

The amount of time it takes to cast a spell is based on how many syllables the incantation is. Since BW works on such a tight time frame (1 second volleys/3 second exchanges) then a spell with 10 syllables means something significant (it means someone is only casting that spell once for every five knife stabs an opponent can get in :twisted: ) Thus its internally balanced (like missile weapons) in that their power and the ability to eliminate mechanics like mana pools or memorization is met with a general inefficiency in combat. Not to say there are not combat spells (although not in my game I constantly hear all about White Fire) but the lion share of usefulness for many mages is outside the flurry of blows (last thing you want to worry about is dropping Forte in the middle of combat).

And I think its great fun. We have a mage in our game and he usually can fulfill the traditional roles within the party - he hangs back and casts his one combat spell (Choke - gosh I love that spell) while others protect him and handle the dirty one-on-one. Otherwise he is an information gatherer (The Sense). There is a spectacular range of flexability inherent in the system yet Mages are by far not overpowered as they are in many games (I have seen several Wheel of Time games now where half the party are users of the One power... so much for rarety).

Hope this helps.

[eruditus]

Also, my wife would like to know if it is easy to create a character, and if so is this something other than a nebulous " I have X number of points to spend on whatever I want to play"? FYI she hates the idea of freeform character design, but she is also dissatisfied with the established "class" system of D&D. She wants to make decisions on how the character will be made, but she would like a structure to do so within.
Digital Apex

was this answered to your satisfaction?

[Digital Apex]

was this answered to your satisfaction?

BY FAR! AND THANK YOU! :D

You might want to keep the post around to help other people who have questions or maybe even make an official FAQ with it.