Ultra realisem

[trial]

In this thread I would like to disscus BW rules in respect to the realisem of the system and not how much they are good for the game in terms of fun and gameplay.
I will start with that I think arhta is partly not realistic, part of it is a cinematic aspect of BW.
Beliefs and instincs are realistic, and also character traits. However, call-on and die traits are realistic only if they are directly related to an instinct or to a magical attribute such as elves attributes.
So the "rolling" traits should be activated only whenever the related instinct and magical attribute are related to the test.
I didnt understand how character traits are gained from belief, or more accuratly it seems like character traits gained by belief expand the description of belief, but then why not simply expand the belief itself?
I can accept fate and persona(partly), but deeds is unrealistic unless it is related to the will of gods and you are granted deeds because you did something that caused the gods to grant you something like divine insparation in return.
Instincts are a bit too harsh. For example, I think many man including myself has an instinct to give a punch to someone who suddenly did something violent to you, even if its a friend.
I was walking with my friend and on my side there was a small ditch, so he suddenly pushed me toward that ditch and after he stopped pushing me I instinctivly gave him a punch. It wasnt out of anger, but from some kind of an instict.
However, these instincts dont always happen and are a bit more complicated from "always give a punch when suddenly pushed", so it should be more roleplayed rather then automatically actived each time a similar situation happen.
Insticts should be given bonus traits (or penalties?) from the start, or gain more bonus traits if the instinct somehow grew stronger.

[Mickeroo]

As for call-on and die traits, I tihnk they are very realisic. FOr example, Eldritch sink, which makes a character immune to magic. It wouldn't make sense for this to be tied into an instinct, unless your instinct was "Always be immune to magic." Something like Plain Faced, or Massive Stature would follow the same logic, but the mechanics for them shouldn't be ignored. Obvisously, some traits are going to have an in game effect, Eldricth Sink must exist, but can not be a character trait.

As for expanding belifs instead of getting traits, as it says in the book, traits mean you are it. Anyone can believe that they are meant to die for the world, but unless they have Aura of Martyrdom, they aren't necessarily going to.

Deeds, all I can say is, why do you think it's called "saving grace" and "divine inspiration?"

Your instinct example has a flaw. Your friend didn't do anything violent towards you, but rather playful. If it was violent, then wouldn't you be right to hit him. Instincts like that aren't really good instincts if you're going to play them like that. You might have to speciffy that if you don't know what pushed you, you'll punch them, and you might occasionally punch a friend in the face, but isn't that realistic?

And according to the rule book, instincts can evolve into traits.

By the way, saying that something is only realistic if it relates to a magical attribute...yeah. Well, I shouldn't be so harsh, yesterday I almost cast Raise Bread, but I don't know what happened beacuse I apparently failed my tax and when I came too, the kitchen was on fire.

[trial]

By realistic I mean that the system is consistent and also supposingly have a theory behind what is possible in the game.
Eventhough, even in our world we cant explain everything with a theory.
What I mean is, if you have a system for battle and HP describes your physical statue, it is unrealistic and inconsistent with what it tries to simulate. Its behaviour is not like the behaviour of real world damage and injuries, if they were describing injuries in a different way it might have been realistic in respect to that description. However, they attempt to simulate real world injuries. Unless they didnt try to simulate real world injuries, and havnt told that to the players assuming its not important.
I havent read character burner yet, so I dont know if what I am saying is right.
I think that if a certain instinct would promote a character getting a die trait which is not directly related to the instinct, then its unrealistic or at least I dont know what this part of the system simulates in ITS world.
Is it sort of magic? why it happens? I think there are no answers for this in the system as far as I know, but I havnet read yet character burner so I might be wrong.

[Mickeroo]

Since you haven't read the character burner, I'm going to guess that you haven't read trait descrptions either. You'll problably find that many traits in there wouldn't make sense to have a relationship with an instinct, but they coulnd't be anything but traits, and they are neccessary to the game (because some people just are that way)

[trial]

Is there another way of earning traits other then from instincts (or fate artha?), it should have been gained with something similar to earning new skills. Otherwise, I guess there is no good explaination why these traits are suddenly gained, because the mechanics that make characters gain these traits doesnt really explain why. As far as I understood.

[RickoniX]

Is there another way of earning traits other then from instincts (or fate artha?), it should have been gained with something similar to earning new skills. Otherwise, I guess there is no good explaination why these traits are suddenly gained, because the mechanics that make characters gain these traits doesnt really explain why. As far as I understood.Yes, yes there is

At the end of each session, everyone gets together and votes on each other gaining new traits and losing old ones. The thing about traits is that they don't necessarily have to be magical in any way, they're just how you are, how you'd describe someone, the very first thing that pops into your mind, the trait vote simply culls traits that the players weren't playing (like in the BWC Iron Will descriptor) or add new ones that they are playing exemplarily well (I know that's not a real word, but I'm low on sleep as always for coming here right after getting off work)

[Mickeroo]

The thing is, while mechanically they are 'suddenly gained' that's only because the character has been playing out these traits throughout the game as if he had them. For example, someone who is a very social person, who learns and uses social skills at every chance may gain the Extroverted trait and learn new social skills, which would fit the character he's been playing all along. I hope that answers your question.

[trial]

Yes, I know about the voting.
It makes sense to give traits according to gameplay.
If I remember well, it also says that a player marks near his belief or instinct if he gained from it fate artha and at the end of the session all those artha gained are taken into consideration into deciding if a trait should be granted to a character.
Why would an instinct which has no relation to a trait, will help to gain this trait? or is there something I am missing.

[trial]

It makes sense to give traits according to gameplay, but that is not what I understood from the book.
I understood it was based on gaining or using (dont remember which) artha, which is assosiated to beliefs and instincts.
I know about the voting, that is what I ment.
If I remember well, it also says that a player marks near his belief or instinct if he gained fate artha and at the end of the session all those artha gained are taken into consideration into deciding if a trait should be granted to a character.
Why would an instinct which has no relation to a trait, will help to gain this trait? or is there something I am missing.

[Mickeroo]

When you use artha with a belief of instinct, you have a better chance of getting siad belief or instince evolved into a trait. However, you can also gain traits just from gameplay, unrelated to beliefs and instincts. At least that's what I got from the book.

[Kaare Berg]

Think of it like this:

Grubby the Munch,
Beliefs:
To be slow is to be dead.
Instinct:
Always go agressive in combat.
When suprised strike first, asess later.

Grubby always uses either an action or artha to buy initiative (i.e. go first). After having done this enough you could justly say that the Mr. Lee trait would be very appropiate for the character Grubby the Munch.

*caveat UPS has yet to deliver my revised pre-orders and I do not know if that trait survived the transition to the revised.