Ancient Enemies (LONG)

[Angaros]

So, I've come here to get some help on getting my campaign on track. I might have begun in the worst possible way since I didn't enlist the help of may players at all when creating the campaign and I still haven't filled them in on the specs. This will change though. I planned on having this discussion next time we game, but it turns out that information will be revealed to the characters next session that will probably be more fun to hear in-game and that really helps in understanding the campaign goal, it's enemies and what's at stake. The campaign has several problems and I'll describe them below.

First though, I'd like to present the campaign setup. The setting used is HârnWorld. I've made some modifications in the setting most notably concerning the religions, but the world still looks more or less the same, at least on the surface. Some background information: Several millennia ago the dwarves established themselves on the island of Hârn (think Britain) and built two mountain cities -- Kiraz and Azadmere. For a long time they lived in peace with the elves of Evael and groups of Jarinese humans. Some 2000 years ago, barbarian tribes from the mainland pushed westward seeking new game and better land and came upon Hârn. This migration soon boiled into a conflict with the elves, dwarves and jarin on one side and the lythian tribes on the other. The elder races tried settling things peacefully, but a war was inevitable. In 683 BT (Before Tuzyn, it is now 721 Tuzyn Reckoning) the Battle of Sorrows was fought where the elder races made their last stand against the barbarians. Led by the elven king Daelda, the elders' host fought well despite being horrendously outnumbered and it seemed they would win the battle. But the Lythian chieftains had an ace up their sleeve for they had bargained with the dark priests of Naveh (evil god 1) and summoned a demon to fight for them. The deamon slew countless enemies before encountering Daelda. The two were an even match and the wounded eachother heavily. At the end of the day, Daelda managed to fell the demon, but suffered a mortal wound himself. Even though the demon's body was dead, his spirit managed to flee banishment by possessing the mortally wounded elven king. As the elven priests tended to their liege they discovered what has happened and pronounced their king dead without telling their people exactly what had happened. A tomb was prepared but not in Evael but the tower of ancients at the fortress of Bejist. The tower is a remnant from a lost civilization and in it Daelda was laid and it's doors magically sealed. When the demon fell the Lythian forces routed knowing that nothing could save them now.

Despite the war being won, the new king of the elves, Aranath, decided to retreat to the forest of Shava and abdicate from the throne of Hârn. The dwarves and Jarin became furious but the elves would not change their decision and left the dwarves and jarin alone to fight against the ever increasing Lythian tribes. While the battle had given the dwarves some time to breathe, it did not take long before the incursions begun again. This time the dwarves could do little but retreat to their mountain strongholds and let the lands fall into the hands of the invaders.

Centuries later, around 120 TR, a great mage called Lothrim the Foulspawner ruled most of Hârn. He had seized his domain by violence using a new breed of soldiers: the gargun (orcs). Whether he had created the gargun himself or lured them there from another world is unknown but their existence on Hârn is attributed to him. Lothrim was obsessed with the Penultimate Tome, a book said to contain the secrets of the ancients (those of the lost civilization). The book was reputedly held by the king of Kiraz (the dwarven city) and so Lothrim went on a war to find it. Through clever tactics he managed to wreck havoc on Kiraz and slay every woman and child in the settlement (it had been left relatively unguarded with the dwarven host being occupied elsewhere) furious that he could not find the Tome. At the shores of Lake Benath, where Lothrim had made camp while arranging for his ships to carry him east to his home, is where the dwarven host caught up with him. They exacted their revenge by burying Lothrim alive and slaying his entire army. Lothrim's chief summoner got away though and vowed to take revenge on the dwarves. When he stumbled on ancient documents in the city of Tashal at the temple of Naveh, a plan was formed. After years of research he made it to Bejist and managed not only to contact, but also to strike a deal with the demon interred with the elven king -- Azadmere in flames in exchange for the demon's freedom (I'm guessing there were perks for the demon involved, like the blood of virgins and stuff). The summoner returned to Tashal where he began his quest but died before he could make good on his word.

Many years later (again) a priest of the temple of naveh found the summoner's remains and his journal. The priest, Ryiku was the only priest at the temple to give any credit to the accounts in the journal. He travelled to Bejist and with the help of the Summoner's journal found the sealed tomb. He also came in contact with the demon who still bound by his oath managed to get Ryiku to take the summoner's place. Over the years, Ryiku has assembled a cult to aid him in this worthy quest. The cult has also affected the minds of the native tribes living on the heath and in the surrounding woodlands making them worship "The Walker on the Heath" -- a terrible and mighty god. Ryiku needs to find a set of keys that can open the doors to the tomb/tower where the demon rests. If freed, the demon will make good on his oath and slay every dwarf in Azadmere.

---

In short...

Campaign goal: stop the demon Aedlad from destroying Azadmere. This can be done in several ways (preventing his release, banishing him, persuading him to break his oath).

Major enemies: The Cult of Aedlad the Imprisoned. The Pagaelin tribes who serve the cult. Possibly the sorcress Gwadira*.

* G is an outsider. She wants to pick up where Lothrim left and seeks his journal now in the hands of the cult. So while she's a naughty old crone, she could be a valuable ally in fighting the cult. The PCs have encountered her underlings and killed them and now she's made them promise to find her journal in return for their lives being spared. I wish I had had the DoW rules when this was done...
---

Enough background. What's the PCs part in this then? Well one of them is a native of the dwarven realm of Azadmere so he'd be inclined to save his homeland and the people he love. The other two? Well that's problem #1. Since the players didn't know enough about the campaign they couldn't make characters fitting the goal. This has also led to problems #2 and #3. This is that one character died and the player made a new character, also without knowing the goals (I know, my fault, kick me in the groin) and the third player never got satisfied with his current character and wants to switch. That's fine by me. I don't want him to play a character he isn't comfortable with, but somewhere deep inside I suspect he's not happy with his current character because of the conditions under which it was made.

The characters are currently in Azadmere seeking information. They are in a good bargaining position since they know the location of the grave an old dwarven hero (that the dwarves want to bring "home"), they have his masterpiece (he was a smith) and three of his books. Here they might learn a lot of they play their cards right. Most of what I described to you above in fact. I want them to get this info in character so I can have a re-burning session with them afterwards. Previously they've hunted a bunch of letters written by the mage Genin in which he speaks of the keys. Genin claimed to know the location of at least one of them. The letters slipped past the characters and fell into the hands of the cult. Later, while guarding a caravan, they were attacked by a Pagaelin warband and learned that there was a connection between the cult and the Pagaelin tribesmen.

So what are your thoughts? Is this salvageable? My main concern is bringing the characters of two players into the campaign in a way that they feel a close connection to it's goal.

[luke]

ok, Jocke. It's always salvageable. Just depends on how much work you do.

Anyway, looks to me like you have a standard, "GM says you have to save the world" campaign going on. Not a bad thing, but don't ever expect your players to buy in.The "he's a native of the realm, so he has to save it" rarely works.

But you also said you want to have a reburning. Are you converting characters? If not, why are you reburning?

If you want to convey information to the players in a narrative kind of way before remaking the characters, do it via a short, one goal adventure, a one off or a single scene. Use different characters, bad guys are preferable. Play out some scene where the bad guys are after exactly what the characters have. Let the players set the stakes. They're the villains, right? "When we find those curs, we'll slit their guts and drag them through the streets." Of course, you can make suggestions.

does that help?
-Luke

[Angaros]

Yay! Answers! :)

ok, Jocke. It's always salvageable. Just depends on how much work you do.

Anyway, looks to me like you have a standard, "GM says you have to save the world" campaign going on. Not a bad thing, but don't ever expect your players to buy in.The "he's a native of the realm, so he has to save it" rarely works.
The player has revealed what is important to his character: a childhood love, still living in the realm who is of higher status than him. A common way to earn respect in the realm is to do grand deeds, which is why he's doing what he's doing. This is why I believe his character has an interest in saving the lands.

But you also said you want to have a reburning. Are you converting characters? If not, why are you reburning?
The re-burning session has two goals. (1) The characters need to be updated to BW Revised and it's a suitable time to do it. We have one relatively new character that can be redone completeley and one character that hasn't been done yet. (2) Since the players now will know the goals of the campaign and since I have a better grasp of how to use beliefs and instincts this is a good opportunity to delve into the characters and see what their priorities are, what drives them onward and what they want to fight for. If the campaign (as is) isn't something they'd risk their necks for then we would have to find a solution (to what we want to game).

If you want to convey information to the players in a narrative kind of way before remaking the characters, do it via a short, one goal adventure, a one off or a single scene. Use different characters, bad guys are preferable. Play out some scene where the bad guys are after exactly what the characters have. Let the players set the stakes. They're the villains, right? "When we find those curs, we'll slit their guts and drag them through the streets." Of course, you can make suggestions.
I see. Not sure the current location can offer bad guys to spell things out for the characters but I'll try to work it out. Oh, wait, I don't see. Could you give an example?

[Thor Olavsrud]

Hey Jocke,

Sorry it took so long to reply. That back story was intimidating!

I think Luke gave the same advice I would have. Honestly, I'd sit down with the players and lay it on the table. "I'm interested in a game where we decide to take on this nasty demon and destroy him, saving Harn in the process. Are you guys interested in that, and can we motivate your characters to do it?"

[luke]

Just to quickly illustrate:
At one point in our long-running game, I had the players make up characters part of the criminal underworld in a distant city. Their goal was to gather up a ridiculous amount of money for some nefarious purpose. Each character had a reason to get the money, but that's not important here. What's important is that during this short campaign, they learned about the rest of the world through another set of eyes. They learned all the trials and tribulations of the bad guys. They learned really important things like: Oni and wizards had infilitrated this town's government and were making millions from legal gambling establishments that they created.

The Oni and wizards were the enemies of their other, main campaign, characters. Of course what they learned was OOC knowledge, but I invited them to let it shape their goals and priorities so long as they didn't go straight for the goal.

No: "We should attack and burn this city, it's infested!" Huh?
Yes: "We should further infiltrate this place. There are some disturbing rumors coming out of there."

This lead to another incredibly awesome short campaign where we played those agents infilitrating the city and eventually overthrowing the government.

-L

[Angaros]

Thought I'd share answers to the questions abzu posted.

• Number of players in your game
3

• How long you've been playing this particular game
For little over a year.

• How long you've been playing with these players
Maybe two years.

• Whether you socialize with these players outside the game: Yes, but not that much.

• Did you do a group campaign creation session or is this a standard "GM comes up with the plot" game?
We all settled on using HârnWorld and the players informed me they wanted an epic tale (which didn't do much for details) and unfortuneatly I didn't ask more questions but created the campaign instead.

• Did you do a character burning session?
More or less. Not as described on these forums, but we did create the original characters together.

• Are the characters you're using native to BW or are the conversions?
The original characters were conversions, but only one of them remain: one character has died, one player left the group and a new player entered the group.

• What are the characters Beliefs?
I'll get back to you with these details after the reburning session. I can give the beliefs of one character as an example:

- Pain is a sign of weakness
- If I only try hard enough, I can master any skill or knowledge
- You dictate how you wish to be treated through your actions: if you steal from me, I will steal from you; if you strike me, I will strike you.

• How are you hitting those Beliefs in play?
Currently I'm not. I find the beliefs difficult to actually incorporate in real play -- it's something I'm not used to doing. I also feel that the beliefs aren't really reflecting what the character(s) value the most -- what actually motivates them to push forward. How do I know this? From what they tell me when we game mostly.

• What do you identify as the main problem you're having in your game?
Stated this above.

[Angaros]

I have a few updates on the campaign. We have now had our "reburning" session where one new character was made and two were converted from Classic to Revised.

The characters are:

* Thardiz, a human denizen of the dwarven realm of Azadmere. Following in the footsteps of his father, he started out as an apprentice armorer, went crusadin' for a few years and then went back to his crafting. Now, he has taken up arms again trying to elevate himself socially so he will be accepted as husband by his love's clan.

Beliefs:
- I have met my true love and will do anything for her to become mine. The path is difficult to travel but deeds of glory and heroism will take me there.
- It was written in the stars when I was born that I would do great things. No adversary is my martial superior.
- Azadmere, my native land, is the cradle of civilization. My homeland and fathers must be kept safe at any cost.

* Seth, a ranger whose roots lie in the realm of herbal medicin. His father was an apothecary but got killed by nasty evil priests. The son wants revenge and has his eyes set on exposing the cult's covert temple hoping to find his father's nemesis.

Beliefs:
- I will do all I can to fight the priest of Naveh who soiled my father's name and took his life.
- I will restore the honor of my family so I can live the life I deserve
- I will travel the world to find knowledge about my gift and why it was given to me (has low speech -- beasts of the wild)

* Alvin, a former squire who aborted his training because of his master's vileness. He holds nothing dearer than the code of chivalry and fights to uphold it.

Beliefs:
- My family and it's reputation will benefit from my glory
- Upholding the code of chivalry is necessary in order to prevent the downfall of civilization
- I will not be a whole man until I am knighted

- - -

I am sure their reforged beliefs will propel the story forward. My only concern is the last character, Alvin. His player didn't want to align even one of his beliefs with those of the campaign -- he saw no reason for doing so. His current beliefs aren't bad in themselves, but his character has no personal interest in the campaign and it's goals (besides gaining glory) and there's really nothing that motivates him to risk his life doing what they do. In his defense I should add that he didn't have as much info on the campaign when he burned his character as the players do now, but enough to give his character more driving goals and closer ties to the story in my opinion. It's difficult to assess their level of knowledge though even if I know what I've told them.

[Kevin]

Is Alvin's player willing to have his character seek glory through the overall thrust of the campaign, though? As long as the characters are aligned out of game it's OK if there's in-character disconnect.

If his refusal indicates that he wants to do something different from what you and the other players are interested, there's a bigger problem, though.

[luke]

I get a lot of players like this. My preferred method for dealing with them is to allow them into the game and let 'em play along.

Play as per normal. Drive toward your goals as the GM, let the players drive toward theirs. Most importantly though, make sure you are ringing on the campaign-centered Beliefs like a bell. Award artha to the players who bring their Beliefs into play.

Then confront that player with a campaign focused-scenario. Maybe he'll pass, maybe he'll fail. He probably won't have any artha to spend to help him and he won't get any for playing the scene -- because his character doesn't relate to the scene.

it sounds kind of harsh, but it's really just an illustration of how the system works.

Of course, the other tack to take is to open up said "plot" to include the priorities of said player. But that would include everyone and might make everyone happy. We wouldn't want that!

-L

[Angaros]

Forgot to post the campaign beliefs as presented to the players.

- I am the demon Aedlad, nemesis of the elder races and I will break free from this enchanted tower, this prison of mine.
- While working to free me, my servants will build me an army -- the time when their efforts will bear fruit is near
- When released, I will pillage, burn and raze everything in my path to achieve true freedom, starting with the dwarven realm of Azadmere.

The servants is the cult to which the killer of Seth's father belongs. Azadmere is Thardiz' homeland.

The beliefs are kind of corny, I know, but it's what I could do with a StW campaign not created the BW way.

- - -

The player has no problems with playing the campaign as it is planned right now, despite his character's beliefs not being geared towards it. I will try to incorporate as much of his preferences as possible -- the character wanting to become a knight and so on. His belief about glory really only states the obvious: if one family member does good his kinsmen will benefit from his reputation. I'll try to suggest a rephrasing of that belief and request his version of the chivalric code.

I tried explaining the advantages of making the character have a personal interest in the story and talked about artha rewards and so on, but he didn't see the point.

[luke]

The beliefs are kind of corny, I know, but it's what I could do with a StW campaign not created the BW way.

ARe you kidding?! Any world destroying demon should be proud to have such Beliefs!

I tried explaining the advantages of making the character have a personal interest in the story and talked about artha rewards and so on, but he didn't see the point.

He'll come around once the Deeds points get handed out. Hopefully before.

-L

[Thor Olavsrud]

I'm with Luke. Those demon Beliefs are hot!

[Angaros]

Updated my previous post (http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12750#12750) with the beliefs of Thardiz. He's got a severe case of hubris going on and plays it well.

[Angaros]

Last time we played there was a good bit of dungeon crawling. The characters need to get to this evil temple which they suspect they can reach from the tunnels beneath the city. They have no clue as to whether the temple is located in the tunnels or just reached via them. The last third of the session was spent mapping the various corridors and sewers that they traversed. As time went by, I more and more felt that it was a waste of time. Sort of. Mostly because the tunnels themselves didn't present a problem. There are little or no obstructions, virtually no traps and at the time they decided to go down there, noone around (aside from perhaps a ratter or two). Perhaps I need to either build some conflict around the tunnels themselves or find a smooth way of moving onward.

The goal of this part of the adventure is to find the Temple of Naveh. It is covert and has remained so for a long, long time. I don't want to make it too easy for the characters to just walz down there and expose an evil cult of creepy assassins. They know they stand a better chance now than later due to the unstable situation of the realm (king is dead -- no legitimate heirs). The temple will try to grab a piece of the action and in doing so will expose themselves. What this means is something I haven't figured out yet and I'd appreciate any help I could get :). Perhaps they try to sell their services as assassins harder or start moving more frequently in and out of the secret areas... I dunno.

With this in mind, how would you resolve the situation? Give them a map handout and say: this is what's obvious how do you proceed? Carefully describe the sewers and tunnels and let them explore it piece by piece? Roll some dice to determine what they find out and just move past this piece?

[luke]

I'd resolve the tunnels with a roll of the dice -- perhaps a Perception test, or Orienteering or Tunnel-wise. But you have to be clear about the stakes here. What's at risk if the roll is failed? What do the players get if the roll is successful?

If there's nothing at risk, a little color narration should suffice to move the players on to the next important part.

Remember, Vincent is (almost) always right: Say yes, or roll the dice.

-L

[Angaros]

Got another question for you: how do you handle situations where the players want to find information about a thing/place/NPC that I as a GM has created? Circles doesn't seem appropriate. Or is it? For example, there is a civil war brewing in the campaign and the players want to research the field a bit: who wants the crown?, who's allied with who?, will the church get involved?, etc. Using Circles seems to limit the characters to finding one individual who has the right knowledge when it would be more appropriate to listen to a large number of individuals and assemble the pieces of information they can provide.

Am I going about this the wrong way? Am I hiding information from the players that I should hand out via roleplaying to get to an interesting conflict? The more I think about it, the more I lean towards this conclusion, but I wanted to ask.

[luke]

Hi Jocke,

They players want information? The first question we GMs must ask ourselves in this circumstance is: "Is there a good reason why I shouldn't just give them what they are after?" Usually there isn't.

In this case, is there a conflict surrounding that information? Will certain information color their decisions? Is someone in the game hiding that information? Is discovering that information dangerous?

If there is a conflict -- even a minor one of perspective -- wises are the way to go. An open test with a wise is a great excuse for the GM to dole out tidbits.

If the players don't want GM-arbitrated doling, they should use the power vested in them via the Resources/Circles/Duel of Wits triptych. It is well within a player's rights to do something like this:

"As we're on our journey, I start drop idle questions at the guest houses and hostels we overnight in. Hints of the prospect of financial ruin had at the hands of the coming war. I particuraly drop my hints around merchants or lesser nobility. I hear bits and pieces that help me refine my story. One night, in a tumble-down inn, I catch the ear of a haggard drunk who happens to be an earl. He's incensed about the coming conflict, and can't stop spilling his guts about what he recently heard at court..."

Set the obstacle. Test for Circles. Suddenly you have your mouthpiece with which to vent a very opinionated, biased and colorful version of what's going on.

As a GM, how do you make such magic happen if the players aren't being proactive? I tell them straight away, "You're doing a lot of talking and shaking hands, but I want to make a Circles test to stand for the whole process. Who are you looking for?"

-L

[Kaare Berg]

Hi Jocke,

check out this here thread on Mysteries (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?t=13013&highlight=).

The goal in that part of the adventure was to find the temple of naveh. Yet you asked the question will they find the temple of naveh?

See how these are similar, yet far from the same.
If the answer is no, the enitre goal of the part of the adventure is lost.
The question undermines the goal you have set for the scenario.

Now look at this pair:
The goal in that part of the adventure was to find the temple of naveh. The question is what will it cost them to find the temple of naveh?

Here the question supports the goal. And it drives play.

They know that X number of NPCs knows how to get there. But A demands this price, and B has a different agenda entirely, oh and why does C know, and what is his motivation for sharing? And then you use what Luke just wrote.

[Angaros]

Good suggestions Kaare and Luke. The Circles problems weren't part of their underground search though. Some time has transpired since then. But you're right about what questions I should have been asking. :) That thread was great. I need to re-read it a couple of times though to digest it all.

I also agree that all too often I'm keeping things to myself despite the fact that I have no good reason for doing so. My phony reason is that if I give them all the goodies there will be nothing left for them to do. This only means I've been focusing on the wrong things. At the planning stage, things go pretty well, but once I start improvising at the table it all goes bad. :)

[Angaros]

We're back in business! Last week we got to play another session in this campaign and this coming Sunday we'll continue where we left off. Right now the characters are in a camp with a crippled army surrounded by enemies waiting for first light so they (the enemies) can strike. This means we will need to resolve a large combat scene (roughly 200-250 participants) and there are several options avaliable that I'd like to discuss.

The players all want to participate with their characters and they also want the outcome of the battle to at least be influenced by their individual success on the battlefield. This battle is very important to the campaign as it determines which way the story will go from here. This is why I don't feel comfortable with just resolving it with a single test and I'm pretty sure the players would want more interaction out of the battle too.

How would you suggest that I approach this situation? The battle itself is a hurdle on the way to the PCs destination. It's an attempt to foil the PCs plans, a pre-emptive strike if you will by their adversary. The goal of the PCs is to get to the main event. I had an idea for a combat system that might fit this but I'm worried that it is too complicated and will only steal time. I don't want that but at same time I don't want to simplify the determination of the battle's outcome so that the players feel that it has been marginalised.

[zabieru]

This is pure talking out of my ass, but if it were me? Having played a lot of mass combats in a lot of systems, but never BW? I'd make it personal. I'd have the battle, ask the players who's with who and what they want to do, tell them the stakes, and play it out. A, B, and C are with four NPC soldiers and want to down the enemy banner? Fight! D wants to snipe at the enemy commander? R&C, with color and maybe the odd bloody versus. And make it hard to do. E and F are trying to evacuate the wounded? Depending on what's around, I'd do that as orienteering or stealth or something, again maybe with some bloody versus but probably not a full Fight!.

Then I'd adjudicate the results based on the player's actions. If they fought like demons, let them win. If they accomplished a lot of support stuff, like protecting the wounded or holding the line, make it inconclusive, but leave their army in a better position than it was before the battle. If they fail hideously? You know what to do.

[Angaros]

Thanks for the input. This method is on the top of my list right now. I've been thinking about how to set the stakes for the whole battle though. As it is I've got 3 players which leaves me with 4 possible outcomes (0, 1, 2 or 3 successful individual endeavours) which ought to be enough. Not just decisive win or loss but a bit of things in between. They want the enemy commander's head on a plate. Badly. They thought he was a really nice guy and now it turns out he's poisoned them and their army, sold his soul to the devil and is now attacking them from behind. :twisted:

[ChrisG]

So, they're outnumbered, in no fighting condition and about to be attacked at dawn? But they want to have their PCs actions win the battle?

No problem. Ask them: so what are your PCs going to do, to win the battle?

Brainstorm. Everyone. Not just "well my PC could do this", but also "your PC could do this, our PCs could do this, and if we meet and all do this..." etc. Then set stakes, obstacles and my guess is the right way to resolve is will jump out at you.

And be sure to finish it off with a Fight! Maybe just a Bloody Versus to hack through the enemy lines and a Fight! with the nemesis and his honor guard. Sounds awesome!