Faith actions

[Mickeroo]

How long does it take to say a prayer? I know you can only say a certain number of words per volley, but how many must be said? I know in classic it was essentiall up to the player to write his own prayers, but are there any guidelines based on obstacle?

Also, can you pray carefully, patiently or anthing like that?

[Kublai]

We've played it as counting the actual syllables used in the prayer.
"Lord, shineth Thou holy light upon Thine most humble servant that he may serve Your will on this earthly plane!"
This would be a 13 action prayer. Hurray!

You could also just pray "The Light of God!" for 2 actions and get the same effect! Hurray!

I don't think you can C+P prayers. At least, we have never done so in any game I've played in.

[Mickeroo]

Well, that's how I played it also, but I wasn't sure if there was any sort of minimum requirement based on obstacle or anything like that.

[Redoid]

I don't think you can C+P prayers. At least, we have never done so in any game I've played in.

Especially since one can gather a bunch of faithful and get helping dice from them. A carefully prepared prayer is one that draw a lot of people.

[Redoid]

Well, that's how I played it also, but I wasn't sure if there was any sort of minimum requirement based on obstacle or anything like that.

Faith, like Summoning, implies a very Christian-like setting, so it's not totally out of place to look at the Bible in this matter. The more potent miracles actually took very little syllables to happen. Samson just said a short phrase, and boom, many dice on his Power roll, certainly more than a minor miracle.

What about that (Joshua 10, the Internet is wonderful for digging obscure pieces of knowledge...):

"He said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon".

10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.
"

That's quite a concise prayer considering the importance of the effect (transgression of natural laws in a much grander scale than the parting of the seas...) for 20 syllables or 10 actions ?

Resurrection made easy (21 actions), in 1Ki 17:
"
And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?

17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
"
And so on... For the truely virtuous characters will spend their time promoting the faith of their god and examplifying it, so when in need, they can afford to be less formal about it :) On the other hand, as Faith can be had quite freely (since it's easy the player's choice, basically), feel free to ignore pleas for a character with a lapse in faith (who neglect his duties for extended period of times, or act quite contrary to his religious belief.

[Kublai]

Those prayers are great and show the exact kind of creativity a BW priest should have! It doesn't matter how long he takes to pray, as long as the intent is clear! Obviously, these old testament dudes had Grey 9 Faiths!

[Mickeroo]

Is it still considered Faith if you're the son of God though? I mean, when do you cross the line where you become the one doing the miracles?

[Redoid]

Do'h. Jesus is an NPC.

When you hit Faith 10, you're taken away, so there's an upper cap to Faith built in the system.

[Drozdal]

Is it still considered Faith if you're the son of God though? Yes, and I'd consider son of god as his avatar, like god's manifestation in the realm of living.
I mean, when do you cross the line where you become the one doing the miracles? I do not know what you're aiming for here Mickeroo, becoming a gon when your faith reaches 10? When You cross the line, god will simply do not answer your prayers anymore, and strip the faithfull of all his miracle making powers, you can get them back when you'll prove yourself worthy again (and we know how unlikely it is, because gods do not like to be treated as tools especially in the hands of mortals). As for second part of your question, there aren't any rules (yet, maybe in the Epic Burner) that allow you to ascend to the status of god (or god's avatar) = doing miracles by yourself, and if you want to pursue this issue further you should start another thread.

[Mickeroo]

Ok, so just to get back to the actual topic of the thread and summarize what we've learned here:

The number of actions it takes to complete a prayer is up to the priest. To make a prayer go faster, hey just have to be able to express their needs in less words.

Ok, I think I'm set. I may pursue the becoming a God thing later on in my BW careaer. Or when the Epic Burner does come out.

[Drozdal]

Ok, so just to get back to the actual topic of the thread and summarize what we've learned here:

The number of actions it takes to complete a prayer is up to the priest. To make a prayer go faster, hey just have to be able to express their needs in less words.
Speaking from my experiences, faith is much more powerfull and versatile in game than sorcery, also less predictable and hazardous. In our campaign we have a Knight who has faith of B4 (or B5 right now), I've seen him pulling off major miracles (OB10) at least couple of times. Of course he had help from other players, and spent some artha on that roll. But that comes down to: If faithfull player really want this miracle to happen Burning Wheel have many ways to help this player achieve his goal.

[Redoid]

Faith is versatile because it's omnipotent and because there is no written penalty for failure. If you don't get a miracle, no problem, that won't stop you from praying for divine help next time. It makes some sense that a faithful character should always turn to the divine for help.

If you find this problematic, you could restrict the versatility of prayer by switching to Polytheism. Either the gods will be associated specific traits and domain (What? You pray me to repair you bow? Who do you think I am? I'm Poseidon, not Apollo, you schmuck!) or they will be all-powerful and all seeing but only as a regional god, so his power will be limited outsite his regional sphere of influence.

Or you could introduce penalties for failure. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.. Frivolous use of prayer could earn the character divine wrath, including but not limited to loss of Faith, transformation into a salt statue, eternal suffering in a lake of fire, and so on... Besides, at high level of Faith (like your knight), you should make the character especially respectful of the tenets of his faith. A Old Testament Faithful couldn't compare his Faith with a wizard, since he would certainly have to burn the witch before she can use her power. If he's having a high Resource stat, maybe he should give more alms to the poor, and so on. Or, you could tempt him. His Faith is a belief, it should drive the game... And a very faithful person is a magnet for all sorts of Demons who would love to corrupt his soul. Be subtle and you could introduce all sort of complications.

Faith is a GM-controlled power. The amount of bennies you give should be in your hand, and if you feel that all the challenge you present to the players can be resolved by "have great ceremony with a bunch of Faithful, and make an ob 10 miracle", you can take actions to correct the problem.

[Thunder_God]

Heh, I have more options, as in, I can say the Prayer in both Hebrew and English and see where it's less Syllables.

I may also look up to you the wording in Hebrew later if I have time; I'd like to note that some meaning got lost in translation but that's always the case with translations.

[Kublai]

Mechanically, if a player took his time at risk to his own safety or really came up with a great prayer despite its length, as a GM I'd consider granting him an Advantage Die.