Belief Workshop

[cawshis]

[Note from Thor: Split from http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1196. Please use this thread for getting help in working out your Beliefs.]

I can't stop thinking about beliefs, and if you don't mind, I'd love to take
a crack (or two) at yours! Thor can correct me if he thinks I'm crazy, but
I really want to practice this aspect. One day soon I want to get down and
dirty in a BW game and I want to be able to pull together some kick-ass
beliefs for the GM!

Looking at your character, you've got:

Beliefs:
- Knowledge is power.
-
- I deserve true power.

If I were playing this character, I'd change them to:

- I deserve true power and I will do anything to have it.
- Magic is the ultimate expression of knowledge, one day I will show the world that I am the most knowledgable!
- Knowledge is power and with that power I will find a way to gain the Gift.

With these beliefs, I've told the GM that I want to play a character that
has become embittered and covetous of the gift. I hope to use my wises,
research skills and even my students as a means to gaining the means to that end. Perhaps an evil tome? A ceremony that involves killing students? Some way to do it and some challenge to his beliefs.
I guess the beliefs could also be made to lean more towards "good"...if I were handed this PC though, I'd want to RP him as overthetop scheming and a total user.

[Thor Olavsrud]

ROCK!!! I'm doing a happy dance right now! You've got it Pedro! The first and third Beliefs make me drool with pleasure. The middle one is a little weak, but that's okay in conjunction with two really strong Beliefs.

Now. My only reservation is that it seems to me that these are all variations of one Belief. If I were your GM, I'd ask you to help me see how these three are different. Otherwise, I'd encourage you to select one of them and come up with two new Beliefs, just because you'd be 'wasting' two Belief slots otherwise.

[cawshis]

ROCK!!! ...My only reservation is that it seems to me that these are all variations of one Belief. If I were your GM, I'd ask you to help me see how these three are different. Otherwise, I'd encourage you to select one of them and come up with two new Beliefs, just because you'd be 'wasting' two Belief slots otherwise.

I knew this wasn't going to be easy!

Okay. Let's go back then to DaGreatJL's Johan's traits and skills to see what beliefs I can get frmo there. Thanks for a very cool concept DGJL! I don't mean to hijack the idea! I just love it.

So. If mean ol'Thor was my GM, I'd have to choose one and make two more. Actually, I'll try to argue first as if you were my GM! I'll need practice in that too, I'd wager!

Original 3 (in order this time):
- I deserve true power and I will do anything to have it.
- Knowledge is power and with that power I will find a way to gain the Gift.
- Magic is the ultimate expression of knowledge, one day I will show the world that I am the most knowledgable!

They are very connected, I'll grant you that. But now I'm going to use the helpful hints in the CB, Luke provided:
1. 1st belief should center on why the character left his old life.
- The masters of sorcery toldme I would never have the gift. I studied and scraped and respected and endured and still they deny me the power I deserve! I deserve true power and I will do anything to have it. No smug master can deny me it and nor can the "rules of the gifted!".

2. 2nd belief links the character directly to the situation at hand.
So I find myself a teacher and reknowned "academic". Again, I must endure the fool students that come through these halls and the smug teachers that call themselves my peers. But the library here is the finest, and who is to say I can't use a student or two in research help? The more knowledge I gain, the more powerful I become and the better my chances of finding a way to the gift.

3. 3rd belief should be used to create hints and intimations for the future.
I might put up a fight for my 3rd belief. My version of Johan is not only bitter and scheming, but egomanical. Not only do I want to find a way to the gift and use sorcery, but I want to show the world that I have "always" been the most powerful sorceror....possibly through violent means, but perhaps through an act of selflessness.

So help me out, Mr. Meany! I want Johan to be a using SOB who'd be pulling strings, tapping research, sacrificing apprentices and possibly killing peers in order to gain the gift.

But maybe the 3rd is linked to the first? I deserve power so that I may use it? How about one contrary to my scheming ways? Like "Sorcery should be used for good. Once I have the gift, I will do great things!"

Now I've got this tortured failed mage who wants nothing more than to do magic for good. So much so that I might do horrible evil to gain it. I think I like that! I can see my Butcher brother being pulled into there!

[Thor Olavsrud]

The reason I'm giving you a hard time about them being too similar is nothing to do with me being mean and everything to do with me wanting to give you more opportunities to gain Artha.

Try these on for size:

- I will let no smug master stand in the way of my ascension to power.

- Knowledge is power and with that power I will find a way to gain the Gift.

- I will make the Red Circle cower before my might.

[cawshis]

Hmm. I guess my difficulty lies in discerning the difference between an Artha-ble belief and an in-Artha-ble belief. Why would your beliefs be better for gaining Artha than mine?

Is it the specifity that matters? Should beliefs be more like goals in the campaign? I took them more as a message to the GM saying "I want to play a character that believes these things. Please give me opportunites to play this out. Even if they are things that make it difficult to believe this!" Not necessarily goals like "I want to destroy the Red Circle", but a belief like "The Red Circle has held me back for too long. They will regret their decision!"

For me, the difference between the two is huge. In the first, I want to destroy the Circle. In the second, my goal isn't necessarily to destroy, but to make them regret they crossed me. That could be something as simple as diminishing their power by joining the Blue Circle (or something) once I become powerful. Or I could humiliate them. Interrupt their powerplay for the crown or what have you. Heck...I could even destroy them! Or the GM can give me the opportunity to destroy them, but at the last second I don't. I'd still get an Artha, right?

I feel like I've should be giving the GM a chance to throw some real challenges my way with my beliefs..not telling the GM what the story should be. Perhaps I'm crazy on this assumption? Am I overthinking this? Should I be working towards a middle ground?

That is not to say I don't like your beliefs. It's just difficult for me to see a real difference between yours and mine! And I didn't think you were mean. Though I once heard from some one that if a player doesn't think the GM is mean, then that GM is doing something wrong...so maybe I was giving you a compliment! Challenge is good, no? :)

Oh. And how about these beliefs for Johan:
- Knowledge is power and with that power I will find a way to gain the Gift.
- Only those with the gift deserve respect, all others are beneath me.
- I will make the Red Circle regret their treatment of me.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Hmm. I guess my difficulty lies in discerning the difference between an Artha-ble belief and an in-Artha-ble belief. Why would your beliefs be better for gaining Artha than mine?

Is it the specifity that matters? Should beliefs be more like goals in the campaign? I took them more as a message to the GM saying "I want to play a character that believes these things. Please give me opportunites to play this out. Even if they are things that make it difficult to believe this!" Not necessarily goals like "I want to destroy the Red Circle", but a belief like "The Red Circle has held me back for too long. They will regret their decision!"

"The Red Circle has held me back for too long; they will regret their decision!" Is an awesome Belief. It wasn't that any of your Beliefs were not gameable or worthy of gaining Artha. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression! What I was trying to get at is that if your Beliefs overlap TOO much, you're going to box yourself in when it comes to gaining Artha. Giving yourself a few different dimensions to operate in will be more satisfying in the long run.

I feel like I've should be giving the GM a chance to throw some real challenges my way with my beliefs..not telling the GM what the story should be. Perhaps I'm crazy on this assumption? Am I overthinking this? Should I be working towards a middle ground?

I try to go for a mix of the two in my Beliefs. I want to make sure there's at least one Belief that is kind of open to GM-interpretation so that my character can go in an unexpected direction. And I try to make sure there is at least one Belief that says something specific about game direction, like doing something about getting one up on the Red Circle.

Oh. And how about these beliefs for Johan:
- Knowledge is power and with that power I will find a way to gain the Gift.
- Only those with the gift deserve respect, all others are beneath me.
- I will make the Red Circle regret their treatment of me.

Does the happy dance again! These are perfect! Each one implies action and each one is testable according to the rule of thumb in my sig. You've got it down Pedro!