Use the Force!

[Kublai]

Ok. It's Force Powers time.

I figure we'll make it akin to Sorcery casting, but replace Sorcery with the emotional attribute The Force. All the force powers seem to be set in stone - Deflection, Telekenisis, Super Speed, Super Leap, Lightsaber, Emperor's Hand, Crushing Hand, Divination, Mind Control. There's nothing to support abstraction-like stuff. All moves must be learned from a master.

I'm sure a browse through the West End Sourcebooks will help, but let's try it on our own first. Use any inspirational material - movies, RPGs, video games, books, etc.

All Force Powers require two actions to enact, except where noted.

Force Powerz:

Lightsaber Training - Not a Force Power per se, but a training only available to the Force Sensitive. It reduces the Unwieldy speed of a light saber to fast. (Lightsaber: Pow 3, Add 1, VA 4, Speed Unwieldy/Fast)

Blind Fighting Ob 2 - A jedi can sense a battle as much as see it happening. Reduces all Obstacle penalties for low or no light situations. Jedi still can not see, however. Requires Concentration.

Quick Draw Ob 3 - This allows a jedi to draw his lightsaber and enact another action at the same time. For example, he can draw his saber and strike or draw and block or draw and counterstrike. Requires only 1 action.

Deflection Ob 4 - This acts as a Turn Aside the Blaster. You've seen jedi deflect a dozens of blaster shots at a time. How else is this possible besides a TAB-like ability? Requires Concentration.

Reflection Ob 5 - This acts like a Turn Aside the Blaster, but the shots return to their source of origin! Requires Concentration.

Telekenesis Ob 4 - Size matters not. Lift and move one of anything with this power. Requires Concentration.

Push Ob 3 - This allows the jedi to push one target. Successes over Ob count as Successes per a normal Push. Requires only 1 action.

Great Push Ob 5 - Jedi makes a sweeping gesture with the Force, sending all those around him sprawling backwards. Push successes equals jedi's Will. AoE equals radius of jedi's Will in 10s of paces.

Mind Control Ob= Target Will - Just like the spell Force of Will.

Super Speed Ob 4 - Successes over increase speed multiplier by 1 per success. Requires Concentration.

Super Leap Ob 4 - Successes over equals 10 paces per success. Requires Concentration.

Crushing Hand Ob 3 - Successes over equal Damaging Lock. Power of grip equals Jedi's Will. Requires Concentration.

Emperor's Hand - as per Emperor's Hand spell

Divination Ob 6 - More successes over equals more information. Nearby Dark Side activity increases Obstacle by 2. Requires Concentration.

Phantom Audio Ob 2 - The jedi can make sounds be heard far away from his position. Think when Ben does that audio trick on the Death Star.

Grey Reflexes Ob 10 - The jedi may Grey out his Reflexes. Requires Concentration. Think Yoda versus Dooku.

Far Call Ob 6 - A jedi may try to telepathically reach out across the stars to those he knows. Words cannot be transmitted, but certainly emotions can be. Recipient must be Force Sensitive, as well. Familiarity with target may add advantage dice; master +2D, friend, +1D, blood relation +2D.

Guidance Ob 4 - Successes over Obstacle grant bonus dice per success to any ranged weapon the jedi mayfire. Requires Concentration.

[Redoid]

Force Powerz:

Activate Lightsaber Ob1 - This allows a Jedi to turn on a lightsaber. It's my opinion that only Force sensitive characters can use such weapons.


I remember Han Solo used Luke's lightsaber to rip open a tautaun on Hoth, didn't he? Maybe the Force attribute could be used instead as a fork for lightsaber skill, plus removing penalty non-force-users would get (like unwieldy), since no one trains with a weapon with no mass which cuts anything effortlessly...


Quick Draw Ob 3 - This allows a jedi to draw his lightsaber and enact another action at the same time. For example, he can draw his saber and strike or draw and block or draw and counterstrike. Requires only 1 action.

Deflection Ob 4 - This acts as a Turn Aside the Blaster. You've seen jedi deflect a dozens of blaster shots at a time. How else is this possible besides a TAB-like ability? Requires Concentration.

And it doesn't need a lightsaber for this, since Vader deflects or rather absorbs shots in the Cloud City with his bare hands.


Grey Reflexes Ob 10 - The jedi may Grey out his Reflexes. Requires Concentration. Think Yoda versus Dooku.

I think the fight by Yoda was more than graying reflexes because they had a lot more actions scripted than normal fighters... Maybe a lower ob, and success over the obstacle adding to Reflexes, with the possibility to convert points over 10 by shadeshifting?

There's also the power to fight blindfolded, mostly shown during training, but which could negate penalties in a pitch dark fight. And same ability to shoot the rocket without the help of the targetting system... Maybe the Force could be added as general fork for using weapons?

How would you handle the Dark Side? It should be also an emotional attribute, that turns you into a monster when you reach 10. But attributes get harder to improve over time, while the lure of the dark side should be more and more powerful, so we need to find a way to reflect its advancement... Anyway, the Dark Side dice could be added to a Force test, to reflect the easier access to the force it grants...


PS: Kewl, martial arts are back in another form...

[Kublai]

I added and edited to reflect some of your suggestions!

As for the Dark Side, perhaps it's a secondary Attribute that works like Hatred or Greed. Calling upon it grants you dice equal to its current exponent, but the amount of dice will equal an advancement test towards increasing the Dark side.

So say I am a new jedi who never used the Dark side before. Say I get really angry, so the GM offers me a single Dark Side die, which is the most available to a jedi without a Dark Side stat. If I use it, I just earned an Ob1 test towards opening my Dark Side Stat. If I choose again to call upon that single die, then I earn my 2nd Ob1 test and the Stat opens up at a Root of 1. Two more times I call upon that single die and suddenly my Dark side goes up to 2. Now I have access to 2 Dark Side dice. The only problem here is earning Challenging tests. Perhaps if I use those Dark Side dice in a particularly evil manner, it raises the Ob by one or two?

[Kublai]

I suppose we could call The Force a skill and make it just like Sorcery.

Then we could make the Dark Side an Attribute like Faith or Greed!

[Yagathai]

Lightsabers are totally grey weapons, right? Because otherwise that VA of 4 is much too low.

[Kublai]

I am torn on the whole Lightsaber scale.

On one hand, it cuts through anybody with ease, including stormtrooper armor.

One the other hand, it bounces off of the railings during that last fight with Vader over Endor.

On the third hand, it melts through the blast door in Episode 1. However, on the other hand of this, it is a VERY slow process and Quigon does not simply slice the door in two. I am tempted to make this grey bump a Force Power, as Quigon seemed to be concentrating very hard!

This leads me to believe that almost every swipe from a lightsaber is superb, thus the low Add. Also, armor is pretty useless against it, thus the VA 4.

On the other hand, Luke cuts the hatch right off the AT-AT on Hoth, which would certainly have Grey scale armor. Hmmm....

[Paka]

Dark Side points should always be available to you, no?

It should be there constantly, this amazing pool of dice always available if you give in to it.

Maybe it is a stat that each Jedi has but it starts at zero. We could devise a chart of actions, like the Grief chart, that would force checks on it.

Maybe like Need in Under a Serpent Sun, where you can get as many Dark Side points as you have Force points.

[Kublai]

I'd like it if the Dark Side were this insidious thing that started off very non-threatening and so using it really isn't a big deal. Thus starting off with the Dark Side Stat of 0 is preferable, and then it increases like Grief or Hatred. We would need to make a chart of Dark Side tests, we would.

Using a Dark Side die - Ob equal to # of dice called upon
Using the Force in Anger - Ob 3
Hacking apart innocent villagers who enslaved your mother- Ob 6
Destroying a world to make a point - Ob 10

[Yagathai]

Re: Dark Side die -- Force is open-ended, right? So it's possible to score extra successes on a Dark Side test.

Let's say I've got a Force of 2 and a Dark Side of 1, and I'm trying for Reflection, total ob. 5. I tap my Dark Side to throw three dice.

Three dice v. an ob 5 is a Challenging test, so you write the rules such that the Challenging test can either be applied to Dark Side or Force.

Also, I'd recommend that if Dark Side ever exceeds Force, the character goes Sith, or at least bugfuck evil.

[Redoid]

The only problem here is earning Challenging tests. Perhaps if I use those Dark Side dice in a particularly evil manner, it raises the Ob by one or two?

Maybe it should be handled like Steel, with a specific list of obstacle to overcome depending on the circumstances. Let's say that you call on the dark side. You can't do this if you're perfectly calm, so you must describe the emotions involved. Then, you make a Dark Side test. If you fail it, you get as many dice to add to your force roll as the margin of failure. As you progress along the Dark Side path, you'll get fewer and fewer dice, because you'll pass the test for minor obstacles and you'll have to commit serious violations of the Jedi Code to get additional dice. Hence the spiral toward heinous acts.

Of course, if you're a master of the dark side, you'll get little benefit out of it, so the dark path won't be more powerful, just easier, quicker. And more dangerous, since at ob 10 you probably turn into an NPC like other emotional attributes.

[Paka]

I feel like its getting awfully complicated with this Dark Side thing.

I want my players to be able to get Dark Side dice when they damn well want them. The check for the consequences will come afterwards but for now, its this pool of easy dice.

And you can add them after the dice are rolled.

Failed a roll?

Add some Dark Side dice...go ahead.

So easy. So seductive.

Once you take those dice, forever will it dominate your destiny.

[Paka]

Maybe Force dice can only be used to respond to aggression but never to start it.

Dark Side points can be used to start the strike, though.

[Redoid]

Also, I'd recommend that if Dark Side ever exceeds Force, the character goes Sith, or at least bugfuck evil.

I dislike this mechanism, because that would mean that a Jedi Master like Yoda could routinely tap into the Dark Side because routine tests won't mean anything to the advancement of the Dark Side. So at his G8 Force skill, he could easily use his powers in anger all the time to boost his ability, something out of character for Jedi Masters I think...

[Yagathai]

Dude, Yoda said it:

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. And hate leads to... well, you know.

So any Force actions taken when you're afraid, angry or full of hate, those would give you Dark Side tests.

... that's it. That's how you get Dark Side tests. You take an Ob 4 Force action when you're full of hate, your Dark Side gets an Ob 4 test.

Nice!

[Redoid]

Yeah, but I see that as something in addition to the lure of the dark side giving helping dice, because if not, the player will never be tempted to act in anger, fear...

On the other hand, I feel Paka is right with the reroll idea. We need to have a mechanism which make the Dark Side easier but not more powerful. Rerolling dice by tapping in the power of the Dark Side would make the test count for advancement in both Force and Dark Side, even if you only rerolled one dice. And you decide to reroll either after the dice roll (seducive) or because you're obviously breaking the "jedi code" (in which case, you earn advancement test anyway, so why not reroll your dice [and taste the power of the Dark Side]...

[luke]

Perhaps the Force is a neutral ability.
Dark Side and Light Side are traits.
These traits grant access to certain powers.

At the end of your scenarios, you vote on who gets the Dark Side trait and what Dark Siders are redeemable.

just my thinking. carry on.
-L

[Viper]

I think it might be cool if there were some kind of mechanic that once you start down the dark path, you pretty much have to use it every time you use the force, perhaps even every time you get into a combat - to represent the slippery slope aspect of it - you keep using it, you keep getting tests and advancing it. If you want to STOP using it, then you have to make a steel test to resist the temptation- you could let the test ride for the whole combat.

It might deprotagonize the player a little bit, but he DID choose the dark path in the first place, so its only fair that he deal with the consequences. Also, the impression I always got was that going dark was more a fact of succumbing to it, to letting go by the inches... and once you started, you had to resist it pretty heavily to stop.

[Paka]

Okay, here's how I'm seein' it.

Everyone has the Force and the Dark Side.

You can tap into the Dark Side for as many dice as your Force or Will exponent, throwing dice into the roll at any time.

Every die you throw into your Dark Side stat adds up for a test that get's ticked off on the sheet, much like Grief, the obstacle being the number of dice used for the Dark Side. When a character reaches Dark Side of 5, they start to really look the part, wearing black, sunken eyes, etc.

When they reach 10, they must challenge the current Sith Lord, no longer are they an apprentice of the Dark Side.

For every die they use, they maybe get a Dark Side token. They can't use the Force while they have these tokens. Tehy can get ride of these tokens by solving social or phyiscal problems with Dark Side methods, aggression, anger, lies, etc.

And of course there are things that Dark Side folks will do that Jedi will not, use the force to physically move biological folks, the choking bit, blue electricity.

Fun.

[Kublai]

Eff tokens! :wink:

In Star Wars, there were two sides of the Force, Light and Dark. There wasn't any Neutral Ground.

The light side of the Force did jack shit for you, offering no bonuses I can discern.

The dark side of the Force granted you more power in exhange for violence or manipulation in the name of fear, anger, and hatred.

That's why I say all jedi should begin with a Force skill which will work just like Sorcery. It doesn't grant you any bonuses besides allowing you to manipulate the Force. Those with a greater skill are more apt at doing this. To use the Force add your skill + your Will.

The Dark Side is the emotional Attribute obviously since light jedi suppress their emotions when using the Force. The Dark Side should advance just like Hatred or Grief or Greed. It can grant you up to its exponent in dice when called upon. A chart of events and Obs needs to be made for advancement purposes, most likely containing tests earned for using the Force in anger, fear, and hatred.

To alleviate the effects of using the Dark Side, penitent jedi may Meditate. The Obstacle for the meditation is equal to the Ob of the test received when using the Dark Side. If successful, the jedi calms his mind and soul and reduces the test by one stage, from Challenging to Difficult, from Difficult to Routine. One cannot lower it beyond Routine. Just like Laments for Grief.

Anyone else have ideas for Force Powers?

[Kaare Berg]

Did something similar to this with HerosQuest. Worked like a charm. A very tempting charm. Just like the darkside will tempt. Cajole. Seduce. And ensnare.

How do you propose reducing Darkside. Redemption is an important theme in Star Wars.

[Kublai]

See my last paragraph for reducing effects immediately.

As for redeeming lost jedi, how about a huge, galaxy-spanning campaign?

[Fourth Horseman]

You realise that if you start running this thing I am going to be forced to burn up Varu . . .

Do you have lifepaths yet?

[Kublai]

No lifepaths yet. I am saving the hardest for last!

[Kublai]

OK, back to decisions on the basic Force mechanic. I sorta favor this one:

Force is a skill akin to Sorcery. To use it, roll Force skill plus Will. No Tax. Force Powerz will be listed with fixed Obstacles. No Patiently and Carefully or Hastily.

Characters do not start out with any Dark Side, but begin with an option to call upon a single die of Help from it. When they do use this die, they open up the Dark Side Spiritual Attribute at Exponent B1 which would be used and advanced like Greed.

To mediate the effects of the Dark Side, a jedi must immediately Meditate. His Obstacle is equal to the amount of Dark Side dice used or the obstacle of the situation (Ob 6 - killing an innocent with your lightsaber, for instance).

[Mickeroo]

I think that there has to be a tax. Using the force can be a very draining procedure, and can damage the jedi. The harder the task, and the less experienced the jedi, the more taxing it is. FOr example, lifting an x-wing out of a swamp is much more physically draining for Luke than Yoda, but attracting a lightsaber is much easier, and the physical effects on the jedi are hardly noticable.

[Kublai]

But there is no precedent I've come across to suggest a Tax of any sort. What source gave you the impression there was a Force Tax? Even when Luke tried to lift the X-Wing, he simply couldn't do it. He didn't drop to the ground unconcious.

I have no problem with Jedis not needing to take a Tax test. Jedis should be rare and uber-powerful, in my opinion. Didn't you see those Cartoon Network cartoons?

[Mickeroo]

Well, there are definately negative effects of using some powers, namely dark ones. This is shown when Palpatine uses lightning. Maybe a tax isn't necessary for everything though.

What I would do is make Dark Side a stat like Greed, and have questions about it also. FOr example, has your character ever killed someone in anger or fear? Add 1 to dark side. Was your first jedi lifepath taken immediatly after your born lifepath? If not, add 1 to dark side. This shows how starting out, some jedi, like Anakin, are more prone to the dark side then others. I would follow the greed rules for advancement.

[Ozark Tim]

Didn't the jedi have super breath holding powers too? Don't forget those.

[Paka]

Didn't the jedi have super breath holding powers too? Don't forget those.

Then why do the non-water breathing Jedi carry water filters?

Lets try to keep it simple, keep it to the fundamental powers that we see the Jedi using and not go too hog wild, methinks.

[Ozark Tim]

Didn't the jedi have super breath holding powers too? Don't forget those.

Then why do the non-water breathing Jedi carry water filters?

Lets try to keep it simple, keep it to the fundamental powers that we see the Jedi using and not go too hog wild, methinks.

But I'd really like to see a jedi channel his evil force powers into a terrific breath holding tantrum.

[AnyaTheBlue]

For various reasons, I didn't see the most recent Star Wars film till this past sunday. However, having been 7 when the first movie came out, lo those many years ago, I find the idea of a good Star Wars game irresistable.

I haven't had a chance to do any work in detail, but just thinking things over has resulted in the following ideas:

1. The Force.

It's an emotional stat. All force "powers" are open-ended skills learned off this trait. Furthermore, EVERYBODY has the trait -- it's only those people who have a high value early on who receive Jedi training and can do "super" things with it.

If you don't have jedi training or any force skills, there are still things you can do -- basically it can be kind a danger sense/luck stat for non-Jedi.

Force skills seem to pool in a few specific categories:

For the Jedi:

Telekinesis (Force Push, Force Pull, Crush, Fine Manipulation, Lift, Deflect, Shield, etc.)
Telepathy (Persuade, Perceive, Sending, Calm, Move Unseen)
Clairvoyance (Visions of the Future, Sense Disturbance, Perception, 'Jedi Reflexes')
Coordination (Balance, Leaping, Healing Trance, Suspended Animation, etc.)

A skill I'm thinking about calling 'Harmony' would be blended -- it's basically what a Jedi in a light-saber combat is using. It allows the Jedi to see what is happening around him, and to use his TK to basically move himself to where he needs to be. He is seeing the future, a little, to anticipate, and his other force abilities to move him or herself to take best advantage of what is to come.

The Sith have an overlapping, but different, set of Force Skills available to them -- stuff like Force Lightning.

The differences between the Light and Dark side of the force can be handled with traits -- the difference between the Jedi and the Sith, IMHO, are more connected to which powers they allow themselves to use, and why, more than it is inherent evil or good embedded in the force.

IMHO, anyway.

2. Lifepaths

Don't have any yet, but I think I have a good idea for the initial settings, assuming a Galactic Republic setting:

Outer Rim (all manner of weird, alien, and fringe sorts of life paths, including some overlap with the Colonies and Hutt Space)
Core Worlds (Politicians, Wealthy Industrialists, Nobility, Diplomats, Trader Princes)
Colonies (Farmers, colonists, technicians, explorers, traders, Adventurers)
Hutt Space (Basically the mafia -- slaves, bounty hunters, forgers, thugs, illicit entertainers, smugglers, prostitutes, and whatnot)
Industrial World/Corporate Sector (droid wranglers, laborers, Freighter Pilots, Middle Managers)
Jedi Temple (Youngling, Padawan, Jedi Knight, Jedi Master)

3. Droids

Droids are basically just characters, but they have some basic "alien" qualities -- basically, they have an additional trait called either "Experience" or "Initiative" or something similar. Whenever they attempt to do something that's creative or on their own initiative, they have to make checks against this to actually think of the idea and carry it out. They can know things and be smart and skilled, but they pay a price by not being inherently self-motivated, and even when they *are*, they're not very good at it -- they need practice and experience to learn how to be versatile, flexible, and creative.

4. Aliens

I think "humanoid" aliens (those for flavor, basically), in the Star Wars Universe, at least, can be largely handled with Traits. This is the Star Trek equivalent of the wrinkled nose or lumpy forehead.

Other aliens would need a set of life-paths for their homeworld -- this would be aliens like Wookies or Gungans, for example, who seem to have a native culture which hasn't entirely assimilated and been subsumed into the Galactic culture.

5. Technology

The technology of the Star Wars universe is mature, rugged, and static. People don't seem to be scientists, they seem to be technicians. If you know how to fix a machine, you can fix *any* machine because they all seem to use interchangeable parts. You don't make new machines, you take bits of existing machines and put them together in new ways. It's almost like legos, if you think about it. Look at Obi-Wan. In Ep I he diagnoses and replaces a Hyperdrive unit. But he's not Scotty, he's a jedi apprentice. In Ep III he resequences the encoded transmission coming from the Jedi temple. In Star Wars proper, he infiltrates the Death Star and deactivates the tractor beam system.

Heck, look at Luke, for that matter. Farmer. Re-attaches threepios arm.

How can he do this? Because the technology, while incredibly complicated, has mature, standardized parts and interfaces, and putting them together and taking them apart is a skill people learn as kids. Every computer interface system -- like starship controls, for example -- probably has droid-like AI built into it. So "flying a ship" is more a question of communicating with the droid-brain control system and less a question of knowing how to fly a 747.

Which is a long winded way of saying, "Technology-wise" and "Piloting-wise" and leave it at that. Unless you are a specialist, you are likely to have a number of "wise" versions of technical skills. If you are a specialist, you have a call-on trait, maybe, that will allow you to break ties in your area of speciality.

----

So, that's my initial meandering thoughts.

Anybody else?

[luke]

i think these are great ideas!

I'd parse the skills a little finer -- Imperial Technology, Alien Technology, Piloting, Starship Control -- but I think you're dead on.

Pete, what you do you think?
-L

[mike_ravenwood]

When i ran my Star Wars game I wanted break up the different aspects of Force use, so I used and Emotional attribute, The Force (B1 base, even if you don't have force sensitive) and had three skills Sense, Control, Alter (which are subsets used in the D20 version, but I liked the concept).

Sense- obviously coverse any for of enhanced or altered perception, "seeing" the force, telepathy, clairvoience, etc

Control- anything the modified the Jedi himself from regulating bodily functions to enhancing physical attributes.

Alter- The external world, "force push", telekenisis, choking disappointing Admirals, etc.

Then to create effects I sampled from the Abstraction rules to adjusts the difficulty based on number of targets, area effect, origin...

The base Ob of an effect started with which skill or skills you were using
(Sense-Ob1, Control-Ob4, Alter-Ob4).

I also used an abreviated version of distilling so you could reduce the Ob of Force use for quicker abilities, like the always useful Force Push.

I did include a system of tax, if you read some of the novels there is a certain amount of effort required, but I think the system I used was only if the Ob was higher than your Force rating, and even then extra successes could be used to reduce or emlimitate tax. I didn't want my players to get tax for simple effects but would get hit hard if they tried to over extend themselves too much.

As far as Dark/Light side, I added the stat Balance. It ran from B10 for uber light side to B-10 for uber Darkside. The lighter you went the harder it was to get to the next step, but for dark side the Darker you went the easier it was to get dragged down farther.

That's all I can remeber off the top of my head, I'll look for my notes and post more soon.

[AnyaTheBlue]

The sense/control/alter triune was used in the WEG D6 Star Wars game as well -- not surprising, as Bill Slavesic worked on both.

Personally, while it works mechanically, it doesn't capture the feel I'm going for with the Force. I'm mostly ignoring the "expanded universe" -- just the movies, and a few other choice resources (ie, the Tales of the Jedi comic book series was awesome).

I haven't gotten them written up properly, but I've been mentally running a couple droid designs through the 100 questions. I should be able to post them tomorrow.

Traits that have occured to me:

Made to Serve -- obedient to owner and subservient to other people
Assembled from Parts -- no healing but no aging, and maintainable and repairable
Intelligent Artifact -- limitations on learning, creativity, and initiative, no telepathy or force!
Tireless -- No need to eat or sleep
Powered by Electricity -- need to recharge
Data Access Probe -- interface directly with other machines to control and use them
Droid Speech -- Speaks primarily in an encoded stream of chirps and whistles
Cylindrical -- body shape
Multi-limbed -- quality
Integrated tools -- lots of doohickies in hidden compartments -- can searve as natural weapons of limited utility.
Wheeled -- locomotion type -- note that this will be more useful in artificial environments than in the wilderness, where it will slow you up

[luke]

Anya, don't stop! you're on a roll!

-L

[Kublai]

Wheeled -- locomotion type -- note that this will be more useful in artificial environments than in the wilderness, where it will slow you up

Ha! Tell this to R2D2! His wheels never slowed him down - not on Dagobah, not on Tatooine, not even on Endor! WTF? :lol:

Anya, I really like your suggestions and will use them.

[stormsweeper]

R2 was tricked out with good wheels.

[amnesiack]

My two cents:

I think the idea of only increasing Dark Side when you use it to aid/power something really reflects the reality of movies. In the movies, especially Episode III, it becomes apparent that acting out of hatred, fear, rage, etc. just plain moves you toward the Dark Side, whether you're using powers or not. Anakin in the latter half of Ep.III is not using the classic Dark Side powers, nor is he doing things that are beyond the ken of the skills he's shown up to that point. Nonetheless, his actions and attitude are obviously racking up tons of points towards his Dark Side nature.

The GM should simply have a set list of actions/motivations that garner "tests" towards advancing Dark Side in a manner similar to the long-term training/practice rules. Players can be given chances to justify certain actions if there is a question, but overall, if you, say, slaughter the innocent, you gain a Challenging Dark Side test automatically. Using powers also can garner you tests, but it's really only a side-effect of the general change in your nature.

[mike_ravenwood]

I divided up force skills into three separate skills because I felt force use was more diverse than one type mental exercise but not so "skill" based as a skill for type of interaction and that it limited what the force could do buy a list of restricting skills, but that's more a personal preference than an issue with mechanics.

[luke]

well, having just seen the final installment, I have a completely different outlook on the whole Force thing.

i don't think it's possible in BW, but a true representation of this idiom would have to be rooted in and rely on the emotion portrayed through the character: anger, hatred, jealousy are acts of Dark Side. Compassion, forebearance and detachment are acts of the Light Side.

-L

[Angaros]

Is it possible then to tie Force to Beliefs and Artha? You gain force points by roleplaying your character's beliefs (or their opposites). Perhaps the force user has one or more separate force-tied beliefs that accentuate these very vital parts of his personality? Act out your ideals of compassion and self sacrifice and you'll get force artha to spend on force actions (?), act contrary to them and you'll get dark side force artha that can also be spent but on different actions. Maybe a character can only have so much force artha of either flavor before one begins taking out the other. Sort of like Cthulhu Mythos limits your maximum sanity in CoC.

Another idea: spending those force artha is what advances your actual Force skill. Maybe your Light Side Force skill and Dark Side Force skill exponents can only total 6D so if you advance your LSF to B4, then your DSF will have a max of B2 (?)... and if you progress beyond 6D, well then your other skill is at B0. Be wary though. If you, like Yoda, have a G8 Light Side skill and gets a B1 Dark side then your Light side drops to B5... ouch.

[Kublai]

Well, I ran a little playtest Friday night. I only was able to test out the Force Powers and not any starship combat.

This is the low-down:
- Force Sensitive is a trait. It allows players to learn Force Powers.

- Force Powers are learned as skills ala Elven Songs. They root of the Player's Will. They are open-ended.

- The Force Sensitive trait also allows you to FoRK in one open-ended die to any tests, - ala Astrology - except Force Powers. This is how I describe Luke "using the Force" to pilot his X-wing and shoot his torpedo into the reactor shaft.

- Force Sensitive characters do no begin with the Dark Side Emotional Attribute. However, at any time they can call upon it. The Dark Side grants one open-ended die when used. It lasts for the duration of the scene. When used, the character opens the Dark Side Emotional Attribute at a root of B1. It now acts and advances as Dwarven Greed.

-The Force Power Reflection works like a frickin' charm! The jedi rolls this skill and any successes add to the Obstacle of anyone trying to shoot the jedi. Take the number of successes blocked and turn them into successes for the jedi to hit the shooter. For example, our jedi has a 4D Reflection up. A battle Droid needs a base Ob2 to shoot him. He fires and gets 3 successes. The blaster shot is blocked and those three successes are turned into a shot at the droid at the normal Ob2 to hit. This results in a hit with a +1 to the DOF.

[Kublai]

There were a few other mechanical things we talked about:

- Treatment times should be shortened. A futuristic medic should be able to Field Dress a wounded character in less time than it took a medeival doctor to do so, yes? We cut the treatment time in half: 5 minutes per Obstacle instead of 10.

- Targeting systems on vehicles would add a helping die to shooter's skill.

[Mickeroo]

What about healing through the force though? It was shown in the movies and in the books. Would it be left out just for balance purposes?

[stormsweeper]

What about healing through the force though? It was shown in the movies and in the books. Would it be left out just for balance purposes?

Which movie was there force healing in? I haven't ready any of the books.

[Mickeroo]

Obi-Wan uses the force to heal Luke in episode IV, after the attack by the sand people. In one of the books I read, Luke uses the force to remove some sort of parasite from his body. As for the book, I'm read a few a couple of years ago, and don't remember which it was in, or if it was Luke, but I'm pretty sure it was.

I just though of it because in the d20 system, there is heal another and heal self, and, as far as I know, every skill in that system has been mentioned in the books or movies.

[dunlaing]

-The Force Power Reflection works like a frickin' charm! The jedi rolls this skill and any successes add to the Obstacle of anyone trying to shoot the jedi. Take the number of successes blocked and turn them into successes for the jedi to hit the shooter. For example, our jedi has a 4D Reflection up. A battle Droid needs a base Ob2 to shoot him. He fires and gets 3 successes. The blaster shot is blocked and those three successes are turned into a shot at the droid at the normal Ob2 to hit. This results in a hit with a +1 to the DOF.

This seems backwards to me. By this system, the better you are at shooting, the worse off you are on the rebound. I would think that you would take 1+the number of extra successes as the obstacle for the Jedi to deflect, with any extra successes being used as the Jedi's attack. In your example, the Droid would have hit with one extra success, so the Jedi needs to block two successes. With his 4D reflection up, he counts as blocking themm with two successes left over, which count as his attack. 2 successes is exactly what he needs to hit.

[Kublai]

I, admittedly, am no math magician. :oops:

[phredd]

The way we were playing it, the successes to hit the jedi were subtracted from his reflection sucesses. Anything that was left over determined the Jedi's strike results.

So, A jedi w/ 4 successes of reflection up and shot at by a droid with 3 successes over its obstacle would result in the jedi shooting back with 1 success and probably missing.

So yeah, it seems like Kublai described it backwards.

[Kublai]

Good ol' Phredd! Thanks!

The way he describes it is the way we played it. It works swell because the better the Reflection, the more accurate it is. If a Jedi has a 8 success reflection up, a 3 success shot from a droid equals a 5 success reflection!

This mechanically reflects the movies, in which every deflected blaster bolt was not necessarily relfected back at the shooter.

[Fourth Horseman]

Hey Kublai any plans to run a Star Wars campaign?

[Kublai]

YES! Join Nerdnyc's GGG and play in September!

[ChrisG]

Kublai, do you have any plans to release your SW LPs and other rules as a PDF?

[stormsweeper]

I have some of the preliminary LP's here:

http://stormsweeper.net/bw/

All the RTF files.

[ChrisG]

Nice. How did you guys handle teh Froce? :)

[Kublai]

Right now, the Force is a mix between Faith and Elf Songs, with a little Classic martial arts thrown in.

Starting Force is based directly on the Will Exponent. A B5 Will yields a B5 Force. Then, you'll see in the lifepaths skills called Form Training. Buying such a training opens up Forms. Forms are categories of Force techniques. Buy the Form for 2pts and get all the techniques within for free. Techniques outside your Form may be bought for 1pt each. (I've started the basic wire frame for Forms over on nerdnyc (http://www.nerdnyc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16908&start=0).

Most techniques have an obstacle, as Elf Songs. For instance, Reflection(aka Turn Aside the Blaster Bolts) is Ob 3. Meet the obstacle and you get a Reflection equal to your Will. Successes over the Ob add to the Reflection dice.

Some techniques work a bit differently. Force Push or Sweep generates a Power rating equal to your Will. You then make an opposed test versus your target's power.

Telekenesis works like an Abstraction almost! "Size matters not!" This means to me that the jedi can lift a single target.

So far, it's working grandly.

[stormsweeper]

Did we ever decide if Force advances like a skill or stat?

[Kublai]

It should advance like Faith does.

[stormsweeper]

OK, so only successful tests then? Not that I think I've failed a Force test yet.

[ChrisG]

Kublai == gronti?

[stormsweeper]

Yep. I believe Kublai was the name of his proto-BW character.

[ChrisG]

Dang, that thread was fun to read. Is there AP anywhere?

[AnyaTheBlue]

After many many many months, I got back to thinking about this. Protracted unemployment encourages that sort of thing.

Anyway -- while Kublai's stuff sounds great, I was thinking it might be possible to model things similarly to how the Elves do Grief->Spite->Hatred.

*************************

Start, like Kublai, with a force trait, which gives you access to force techniques rooted off Will, a la Elf songs.

Jedi then take an Imbalance stat. Like Grief, you earn tests against it based on things that you do. You can mitigate that through meditation.

Both active Jedi and "Grey Jedi" -- Jedi who have forsaken the Order, but not turned to the Dark Side -- would use these rules.

Hitting a 10 in imbalance causes your Jedi to lose control of the forces warring within him, and he is literally consumed by the Dark Side of the force in some spectacular and deadly way.

One of the things that a Jedi can do is call upon the Dark Side at any time. This allows the Jedi to FoRK in an additional die -- beyond the extra die from Force Sensitivity -- on any test (including standard Force tests, where force sensitivity does not permit FoRKing), but at the cost of earning a test against (or outright advancement of) the Imbalance stat.

There should be something like Tax governing this additional die, though -- the Dark Side isn't more powerful, just seductive and quicker...

Before Imbalance hits 10, however, the Jedi can convert his Imbalance into Passion -- which causes him to become a Dark Jedi. He is calling on the Dark Side, but he is not a Sith. His Darkside force techniques are not rooted in will, but in the new Passion statistic, and he can FoRK in an additional Passion die, in addition to the die that his Force Sensitivity allows, on any skill attempt -- including standard Jedi will-based techniques.

Unlike light side techniques, all passion-based force skills should engender a tax of some sort.

Making this conversion additionally requires the adoption of a new trait which visually marks the user as a Darkside Force user. Typically, this involves glowing inhuman eyes, a sickly pale countenance, and so forth, but it does not have to be omnipresent or undisguisable.

Light-side Jedi can make Force-based perception tests to detect such a Darkside user, but any such tests will only provide a vague sense of unease.

It is important to note that this sort of Darkside Force user is operating in a sort of middle-ground. Some of her force skills will be will based, others will be passion based. Some come from the Light side, others come from the Dark side.

Again, when Passion hits 10, the Dark Jedi loses control not of his grasp on the Force, but of himself. His own passionate feelings drive him to self-destruction.

Which brings us to the Sith.

All Darkside force users are not Sith. The Sith are a particular sect of darkside force users whose history is intimately linked to the history of the Jedi. They have their own store of Force techniques distinct from both the Jedi and other Darkside users. In addition, they convert their emotions from simple Passion to Narcissism.

Converting Passion to Narcissism requires a permanent scarring and inhuman trait to be gained -- one which cannot be easily disguised conventionally, although it may be cloaked with the Force.

It also involves losing touch with the Light side of the Force entirely. All Force skills rooted in Will become unusable, although some may be re-rooted in Narcissism. New Narcissism-specific techniques also become available through Sith training.

All Narcissism skills would, like passion, require a tax -- but because no will based skills remain, all force use would involve some physical strain -- hence the development of the inhuman marking traits that those who follow the Dark Side seem to gain.

Hitting a 10 in Narcissism causes the Jedi to lose contact with the world beyond his own mind -- he is lost in fantasies of personal fulfillment and remains effectively catatonic until death overtakes him.

****************************

I have no idea if this is workable, or at all preferable to whatever rules and ideas Kublai & others have come up with -- it's just me noodling. I'm sure it's not that close to Star Wars canon, but I'm more concerned with getting something that meshes with my own idiosynchratic view of the Star Wars setting.

How does this sound to people? I'm particularly not quite sure how to make Narcissism and Passion actually that different, for one thing. Maybe they don't need to be?

[skandall]

Ok, so it looks like converting Star Wars to BW may be a bit of a dead issue, but I'm trying to talk my players into using BW instead of D20 and I need to sort out this whole Force thing. So, here's what I'm thinking.

For a player to use the force they need to describe the intent of their action. From the intent the GM decides which of the three Force Skills to test; Alter, Control, or Sense.

EMOTIONAL ATTRIBUTES:
The Character has 3 Emotional Attributes: The Force, Light Side, Dark Side.

The Force - Starts at a randomly determined exponent since each character is born with a different concentration of midichlorians. A lame idea, but it's what we're stuck with and it governs the strength of the characters Force abilities.

Light Side - Starts at B1. Spend a Persona point to test this attribute. Each success grants a 1d advantage to the next non-evil test. Advances as a Stat and only with successful tests.

Dark Side - Starts at B1. Spend a Persona point to test this attribute. Each success grants a 1d advantage to the next test. Advances as a Skill. From B5 to B7 ignore 1s from the test. From B8 to B9 the persona point cost is 2 and ignore 3s from the test. At B10 your characters body is consumed by the Dark Side of the Force and ceases to exist.

SKILLS:
Alter - Used when the player wants to influence the force in a way that affects things or people other than the user. Using Alter to accomplish something the GM feels is evil will count as a test for advancement towards your Dark Side attribute.

Control - Used when the player wants to influence the force in a way that will affect their own person.

Sense - Used when the player wants to detect the force in some way.

Lightsaber - Each volley of an exchange the character gets a pool of dice equal to the exponent of this skill. This pool is split between attack and defense. Attacks can FoRK Control. Defenses can FoRK Control and Sense. These Defense dice serve as a natural defense and do not need to be scripted. If the number of successes from the defense test are double the opponents attack test, the ranged attack is deflected back to the firer as an attack.

A note on Lightsabers: Since the blade is pure energy it has no mass and thus the amount of damage it does has nothing to do with the users Power. Damage dealt by a lightsaber uses a D.O.F. Extra successes from the Lightsaber attack test can be used to shift the DoF result as with ranged weapons. Lightsaber IMS = I B4, M B8, S G4. Wounds received from a lightsaber do not bleed.

Okay, so those are just some first thoughts. I'd rather keep it more cinematic and dynamic rather than convert each Force feat and skill over from the D20 RPG.