Various Fight! questions

[donbaloo]

Hey guys. Ran a practice scripted fight this evening with two combatants and was so extremely excited about the way combat flows with this system. Damn, this is good stuff. The first battle consisted of two exchanges worth of armor deflections, blocks, and failed disarms. Final volley of the second exchange resulted in a massive push forcing one combatant to prone. Opening round of the third volley...death blow as the combatant attempted to stand. Chain armor failed against the axe. B10 Mortal Wound. From no damage to death. Very very exciting. Also, guys, excellent work on putting together a very functional index. Its been very helpful throughout my readings. Anyway...questions that came up for us:

1) First off, is the Mace a short or long weapon? The weapon chart calls it short but the Fight! section describes maces as being among the long weapons. If it is short would it suffer a +3 Ob when on the Inside since its used like a club or would it be a +2 in the same category as short swords? Also, can any weapon use a hilt/pommel strike?

2) When scripting, do you script your positioning maneuvers for the three volleys at the outset of the exchange just like the rest of your moves? I thought we were suppose to but then it created wierd situations where say we wanted to Close on the first volley and then maintain that position throughout. But then if we fail that first Close it seemed silly for us to stick to the prescripted maintain when we still wanted to get that close in. How does this work?

3) If maneuver X is countered by maneuver B, that doesn't necessarily mean that X isn't carried out does it? I assumed that's what it means for something to counter something else. But a Block doesn't counter Strike to that extent. Or for instance, I script a Counterstrike to my opponents Disarm. Is the Disarm simply forced into abortion now or does it still go off but my defend die pool successes are added to the Obstacle for the Disarm?

4) Do you suffer the movement Obstacle penalty for scripting a Withdraw or Close even if you lose the Positioning test?

5) If I've just finished a strike with a slow weapon, can I utilize Block and Strike on my next move if I have shield training and have scripted the Block? Disarm after Strike? Feint after Strike?

6) A combatant in chain armor suffers the +2 Agility Obstacle to his weapon skill, correct? If so, just to make sure I'm clear, that means someone with a B2 sword skill and chain armor will never successfully strike his opponent barring some advantage, help, or FoRK?

Later all...

[Thor Olavsrud]

Hey guys. Ran a practice scripted fight this evening with two combatants and was so extremely excited about the way combat flows with this system. Damn, this is good stuff. The first battle consisted of two exchanges worth of armor deflections, blocks, and failed disarms. Final volley of the second exchange resulted in a massive push forcing one combatant to prone. Opening round of the third volley...death blow as the combatant attempted to stand. Chain armor failed against the axe. B10 Mortal Wound. From no damage to death. Very very exciting. Also, guys, excellent work on putting together a very functional index. Its been very helpful throughout my readings. Anyway...questions that came up for us:

That's awesome donbaloo!

1) First off, is the Mace a short or long weapon? The weapon chart calls it short but the Fight! section describes maces as being among the long weapons. If it is short would it suffer a +3 Ob when on the Inside since its used like a club or would it be a +2 in the same category as short swords? Also, can any weapon use a hilt/pommel strike?

I'd be inclined to trust the table. I'm guess the example made use of a Great Mace, which is long. But maybe Abzu can clear it up. Anyway, treat it like a small sword unless he says differently.

And yes, any weapon can perform a hilt/pommel strike. Doesn't make much sense with Fast weapons though.

2) When scripting, do you script your positioning maneuvers for the three volleys at the outset of the exchange just like the rest of your moves? I thought we were suppose to but then it created wierd situations where say we wanted to Close on the first volley and then maintain that position throughout. But then if we fail that first Close it seemed silly for us to stick to the prescripted maintain when we still wanted to get that close in. How does this work?

Positioning maneuvers are scripted at the same time as everything else. I highly recommend downloading the New School Scripting Sheet (http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=1) and using it. We laminate 'em and mark them with grease pencils. Works like a charm.

Anyway, take a gander at the Forfeiting an Action to Change an Action rules on pg. 163 of your system book. If you find that your entire script has been invalidated by a poor Positioning test -- and your plan for your script did not take that into account -- you may choose to sacrifice a later action to change an upcoming action. When you do this, you may also change your tandem actions -- including Positioning -- for free. If you wish, you could change JUST your positioning.

But, as with everything else in Burning Wheel, there is a price you must pay. you must sacrifice an action to do it.

3) If maneuver X is countered by maneuver B, that doesn't necessarily mean that X isn't carried out does it? I assumed that's what it means for something to counter something else. But a Block doesn't counter Strike to that extent. Or for instance, I script a Counterstrike to my opponents Disarm. Is the Disarm simply forced into abortion now or does it still go off but my defend die pool successes are added to the Obstacle for the Disarm?

In most instances, it means that maneuver X IS carried out, but successes from maneuver B are subtracted from successes on maneuver X. In other words, if the description of maneuver X says it is Countered by manuever B, it just means that maneuver B Defends Against maneuver X.

However, there is a maneuver that if you script it successfully against certain maneuvers, those maneuvers are NOT carried out. That maneuver is Feint. As noted in the description, if you script a Feint and your opponent scripts a Block or Counterstrike, your opponent counts as Hesitating. He does not get to roll his Block or Counterstrike, and you get your full dice to strike your opponent. The only other maneuver that has a slightly similar situation is Counterstrike. If you script a Counterstrike against anything EXCEPT Strike, Great Strike, Disarm, or Push, you do not get to perform your Counterstrike action.

4) Do you suffer the movement Obstacle penalty for scripting a Withdraw or Close even if you lose the Positioning test?

Yes. You still moved quickly. Your opponent just happened to be faster.

5) If I've just finished a strike with a slow weapon, can I utilize Block and Strike on my next move if I have shield training and have scripted the Block? Disarm after Strike? Feint after Strike?

Block and Strike is a Strike. It just has an added element to it. Other than that, you may follow up a Strike with ANY other maneuver. You may even choose to Strike after a Strike with a Slow weapon, but you have to use the pommel/hilt. It is perfectly acceptable to have a script that looks like:
Volley 1: Blade Strike, Hilt Strike
Volley 2: Blade Strike
Volley 3: Hilt Strike

Whether it's wise is another question.l :lol:

6) A combatant in chain armor suffers the +2 Agility Obstacle to his weapon skill, correct? If so, just to make sure I'm clear, that means someone with a B2 sword skill and chain armor will never successfully strike his opponent barring some advantage, help, or FoRK?

Whoah there! Read that section again! Page. 185. Here's the part that you glossed over: Weapon skills and Brawling are exempt from this penalty. Throwing and missle weapon skills are not.

Good luck man! Hope this helped.

[donbaloo]

Positioning maneuvers are scripted at the same time as everything else. I highly recommend downloading the New School Scripting Sheet and using it. We laminate 'em and mark them with grease pencils. Works like a charm.
I had done just that and we used overhead markers. Worked great. Those scripting sheets are fantastic tools for us. Excellent work on those you guys. Very efficient use of space. I did want to ask something about those however. The sheet breaks Counter down into Counter: Strike, Lock, Disarm. Do players actually have to choose what they are going to counter when they script the counter maneuver?

Anyway, take a gander at the Forfeiting an Action to Change an Action rules on pg. 163 of your system book. If you find that your entire script has been invalidated by a poor Positioning test -- and your plan for your script did not take that into account -- you may choose to sacrifice a later action to change an upcoming action.
Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me. Man, that's tough. Slow guys really are at a disadvantage in that not only is it hard for them to win positioning but it makes it difficult for them to even have decent chance at predicting their positions for scripting maneuvers.

Yes. You still moved quickly. Your opponent just happened to be faster.
Makes since. However, if I'm attempting a Close and fail against my opponents scripted Maintain then we were both moving fast right? Guess there's no need for detail to that level though.

Block and Strike is a Strike.
Okay, yeah. Guess I got that twisted up a bit. You cleared the rest of it up too.

Whoah there! Read that section again! Page. 185. Here's the part that you glossed over: Weapon skills and Brawling are exempt from this penalty. Throwing and missle weapon skills are not.


Damnit. I always did have the most trouble with the eggs hidden out in the wide open. I've spent so much time poring over the rules that sometimes it feels like I'm looking at one of those 3D stereoprint pictures. Sometimes its hard to get my eyes to see everything that's there, no matter how obvious it is.

You cleared the rest up for me. Thanks!

[Thor Olavsrud]

I did want to ask something about those however. The sheet breaks Counter down into Counter: Strike, Lock, Disarm. Do players actually have to choose what they are going to counter when they script the counter maneuver?

I believe those are legacies from the Martial Arts rules in the appendix of Classic. If I remember correctly you needed a Martial Arts skill to be able to use those (I'll have to confirm that with Luke though). But yes, the idea is that you are supposed to choose which one when you script the maneuver. You are of course, welcome to give your players the ability to do these maneuvers if you wish. They are all Defensive maneuvers like Counterstrike, and you must divide your skill to perform them.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me. Man, that's tough. Slow guys really are at a disadvantage in that not only is it hard for them to win positioning but it makes it difficult for them to even have decent chance at predicting their positions for scripting maneuvers.

Yes. Being slow is very difficult in Burning Wheel. There are ways to deal with it. If you have a lot of Power, you can use the Charge maneuver to close fighting distances. You could also assme a Stance and use the bonus dice for positioning rather than a maneuver, as per the Stance and Position rule on pg. 163.

You can also try to mitigate your Positioning disadvantage with good tactics and scripting. Try to make sure that your weapon has the length advantage on your opponents. Not only does it give you additional dice to Positioning, but it means that your plans won't be invalidated by not being able to reach your opponent. The danger is that your opponent gets inside on you. But you can still Hilt strike (at a slightly increase Obstacle) on the Inside. It doesn't hurt to have a knife as a backup in this situation though.

Makes since. However, if I'm attempting a Close and fail against my opponents scripted Maintain then we were both moving fast right? Guess there's no need for detail to that level though.

Yes and no. Our determination was that it takes more effort to Close or Withdraw than it does to Maintain distance. Thus we apply a Moving Quickly penalty to Close and Withdraw to melee actions in the Fight! mechanics, but not to Mainatin. However,using Throwing, Bow, Crossbow, Javelin and Firearms in the Fight! mechanics while Maintaining DOES incur the Move and Shoot Disadvantage. It's all on page 147.

[donbaloo]

Thanks for the detailed response and the page references Thor. Looking forward to another mock battle today with my wife. I'm tempted to introduce Duel of Wits as a decision making mechanic around the house here. I'll let you guys know how that pans out. :)

[Ozark Tim]

I can see the point on the positioning making for strange situations. You get a double whammy of being out of striking distance and then fighting to maintain a bad position. The system would be more forgiving if they'd let you name the position you were vying for; instead of 'maintain, maintain, close' you might script 'optimal, optimal, get inside'.

[donbaloo]

Ran the next rounds with my wife this evening and came up with a couple more questions.

1) Slow weapons cannot have strikes scripted back to back right? What happens when Great Strike is thrown into the mix? Does the Set half count as a non-strike action? What we ran into was a Strike followed by a Set and the Great Strike. Is that legal?

2) How is a tie for positioning handled when its the test for starting position at the beginning of battle? I know that during battle you default to the previous position but of course there is no previous position for the starting test. We just gave the tie to the combatant with the largest positioning die pool.

3) If I am hesitating for 3 actions and get hit again, accruing another 3 actions of hesitation, do those last three get tacked onto the end of my first three or do they overlap?

4)If I Run Screaming due to hesitation, that starts on my next action with a positioning test as if I scripted a Withdraw correct? Repeat until I either am incapacitated by further wounds or manage to maneuver into Outside Striking Distance where it then turns into versus speed tests, right? I assume die penalties from wounds are subtracted from positioning and speed tests as well?

Think thats it for this round. Later all...

[donbaloo]

I can see the point on the positioning making for strange situations. You get a double whammy of being out of striking distance and then fighting to maintain a bad position. The system would be more forgiving if they'd let you name the position you were vying for; instead of 'maintain, maintain, close' you might script 'optimal, optimal, get inside'.

Yeah, thats been hard to get used to for me. I like your idea of scripting "optimal" or "inside" and then, not necessarily winning that position but winning one move closer to it or maintaining it if you're already there. Any reason why this would jigger the system terribly? Seems like it would serve the same purpose but remove the automaton-like situation we ran into. Or maybe you just get better at it with more scripting practice...

[luke]

Ran the next rounds with my wife this evening and came up with a couple more questions.

1) Slow weapons cannot have strikes scripted back to back right? What happens when Great Strike is thrown into the mix? Does the Set half count as a non-strike action? What we ran into was a Strike followed by a Set and the Great Strike. Is that legal?
[quote]

Yes. Strike, Set, Great Strike is legal. Set, Great Strike, Strike is not.

[quote]
2) How is a tie for positioning handled when its the test for starting position at the beginning of battle?
The default starting position is Out of Striking Distance. A tie defaults to a Maintain. Therefore, both opponents start out of striking distance.


3) If I am hesitating for 3 actions and get hit again, accruing another 3 actions of hesitation, do those last three get tacked onto the end of my first three or do they overlap?


We tack them on to the end. Either is acceptable, though.


4)If I Run Screaming due to hesitation, that starts on my next action with a positioning test as if I scripted a Withdraw correct? Repeat until I either am incapacitated by further wounds or manage to maneuver into Outside Striking Distance where it then turns into versus speed tests, right? I assume die penalties from wounds are subtracted from positioning and speed tests as well?


Yes to all of #4. Except that if you manage to get outside striking distance, your opponent can decide to let you go. But if she wanted to give chase, yes, it'd be pursuit mechanics.

-L

[donbaloo]

Okay, thanks for clearing up 1 and 2 for me Abzu. I wanted to ask something else about hesitation though. And yes, I realize I'm being the dumb kid that will eventually be made fun of on the playground for asking so many questions in class but what the hell...at least by the time I've gotten everything straightened out you can just point newcomers to do a search for all posts by 'donbaloo' so they can get all their questions answered. :)

I'm assuming that hesitation is every bit as dangerous as I've witnessed it to be in my few practice skirmishes? Looks like if you get struck on Volley 3 and fail your Steel Check (which we always do) you're going to be hesitating for at least part, if not all, of your actions for the next exchange. You opponent is now free to destroy you since you can't defend while you stand and drool, adding even more hesitation to your current hesitations. Even if you Run Screaming you're likely to be at a disadvantage since you no longer will be using your weapon for positioning and you are suffering from die penalties from the wound. This is the reality of combat in Burning Wheel, right? No one can enter combat and feel very good about it, very realistic I think.

[Kevin]

Hesitating in combat sucks. Hesitating on Volley 3 sucks harder.

A character who plans to be in combat frequently should aim for a high Steel and low hesitation. Even then, I've found that the person who gets first blood in most fights is likely to win, all else being equal.

Of course, longstanding PCs should have reserves of artha to help keep them alive.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Sometimes you just have to fall to your knees and beg for mercy. Or have a comrade on hand that can come to your aid! Companions that can help you are hugely important!

Anyway, it's an interesting phenomenon but you may just find that Burning Wheel makes players kind of moral. After a while, they rarely start fights just to start 'em. And when they do get into fights, they seem willing to grant mercy and spare their opponents rather than slaughtering them out of hand, if only in the hope that some guy grants the same to them some day.

Swooning can also be a good tactic, especially in a large scrum. Sure, you could take the time to off that guy who just passed out on the field, but it may mean that you'll be taking a blade in the back from some other guy on the battlefield. Better to just move on.

[donbaloo]

Yes, we weren't playing with Artha for practices and I'm sure that helps some. Good points though Thor, I was beginning to realize that combat would definately be more respected in Burning Wheel but I look forward to seeing how soon your points begin to turn up in our games. Its gonna be fun.