The beginning...

[donbaloo]

Okay, figured I'd offer this up to any who will be interested along the way. I sent out the first email today to my players asking them for story preferences in our games that will be coming up. I plan to kind of keep this thread updated with how our conversion goes but I'm sure it will be slow going. I won't be posting every tiny detail of the process or anything like that though. Just thought maybe someone would find it interesting (or amusing) watching a bunch of long time D&D players switch to the Burning Wheel. None of us have ANY experience, or even knowledge of the existence, of other systems except for my new found knowledge of Burning Wheel. Just the fact that we'll be playing a game with :shock: nothing but D6s!! :shock: will be a jarring I think. None the less, I'm very open for criticism or ideas along the way for those bored enough to follow this. Moderators, if you think its just a big waste of board space then I totally understand.

I'm looking to do a two session introduction to the game. I've played with these guys forever. My wife is a relatively new player but she loves it. They are also my primary social circle so we hang out all the time away from the table. So anyway, the beginning was this...

"Okay Guys and Doll, this is my official contact letter to renew our interest in fantasy escapism...er, role-playing. Here's the deal, I want to use this as a way to begin a brief discussion about what we want to do when we get started up. I would be sending this to Brian as well but I don't know his email address and it would be pointless to send it to his illiterate ass anyway. So Paul, pass this along to him to. John, I realize that in all likelihood you will not be around to enjoy all the good fellowship and fun this summer has to offer us. You won’t be around to strengthen your new bonds of friendship with those here, nor will you be able to enjoy those old bonds that you've created with your dear friend Paul. You'll be gone, and so won't be able to hear us laughing and storytelling, see us smoking pipes and raising pints, or feel the warmth of friendship as we speak good things about you. But hey, it’s not that big a deal, right? I thought I'd include you just in case.

Anyway, I'd like to read any ideas you guys have for what you want to see happening in this upcoming game. Keep in mind, we're going to be trying a new system...The Burning Wheel. I'm really excited about it but it may be a bust once we start driving it. I want to give it a shot though. This means all new rules. This also means that since none of you lazy asses will ever read them, we're going to need a night set aside in the beginning for a few hours to hang out, drink some beer, grill some food, and receive lessons from me on how to play the game. At this gathering Paul, your rate of alcohol consumption will be required to be considerably slower than it was the other night you were here. Anyway, yes, a whole evening of talking about the game and making characters. Character concepts will begin with discussions through email like this though. I figure we all have some free time during the day and this will be the perfect way to handle this.

But the first thing we have to do is discuss what we all want out of the games to come. I'm thinking to get us into the system we'll plan to have the first "adventure" last two sessions. Then its over. So its gotta be something we can accomplish in a couple evenings. Anything goes here and try to free your mind of everything D&D. We don't have to be the standard adventuring party in this game. We can play slum lords, slave traders, noble courtiers, or adventurers. This is all up to you guys. The first thing you are going to notice different about this game is that, though I'm DMing (now I'm called a GM though), I'm not creating the whole story. I still fabricate the main plot line, but there's lots of leeway for you guys to insert your own ideas. There will be times that I will be surprised at the direction of game flow. That's all good.

So, to get us started, I'll throw out some things that I'd like to see in this game. And all of our ideas are negotiable and up for discussion. No characters just yet, we're just working on a story basis. My wants:
I want it to remain Fantasy obviously, but I'm thinking Low to No magic here. I'd also like to see us focus a little more on social conflicts and try to steer away from letting combat be the driving force of the game. I wouldn't mind having a good deal of city action but I'm flexible on that. I think I'd still like something Black Company-ish in that the country is undergoing a rebellion against a perceived Evil Empire. We don't have to get wrapped up in that or anything, I'd just like to see it in the background. I'm gonna stop here and see what you guys have to say now. Seriously, I want us to have a really good time with this. I think we can weave a pretty sweet story together. Oh, and by the way, yes Mel, I know that I live with you but I'd still like to have this stuff in writing. So you have to email too. Paul, if Brian is just dead set against having to type his ideas...well, I can offer him telephone use I guess. It sucks though. Maybe he can write it out with a pencil and you could scan it and send it. Do you have a scanner? John, participate all you want to but I realize that your interest in this might be pretty slight right now. Don't worry, no hard feelings. If it comes down to just me, Paul, and Mel discussing it...so be it. Please address your emails to all of us though. This is open discussion.

Let me have it guys!"

If the thread doesn't get axed I'll update accordingly and I guess split it over into Campaigns and Stories when we get there.

[luke]

If the thread doesn't get axed I'll update accordingly and I guess split it over into Campaigns and Stories when we get there.

Why would we axe this??!!!?!? This is EXACTLY what we are looking for in the Fevered Circle. Please give us EVERY gory detail of what happens.


Oh, and I noticed that it seems like you have some problem players, or were you just joking? If you do have problem players, let's talk about what happened, what went wrong and what went wrong in this thread, too.

-L

[donbaloo]

Nah, no real problem players. I mentioned John perhaps having limited interest because he's unsure as to whether he's gonna be in town this summer. If he's here, he'll be playing and I consider him my strongest player. Brian is only a problem because he suffers from computerphobia. Hates emailing because he types slowly. No real problem players though. I'm assuming that if it came down to it that BW can handle some pretty intense and interesting games with only 2 or three actual players? That's the impression I've gotten from it. I'll keep you updated...

[donbaloo]

Okay, so far I've been corresponding via email with my group to discuss setting/story ideas that they'd like to pursue....and its been like pulling teeth. I don't know if they're just so accustomed to having the "adventure" presented to them lock, stock and barrel or what. After repeated requests for input, two players have finally started getting the hang of it. The first request was to stick with the original Black Company notions (not BC canon but just in the spirit of the Black Company stories) and play the role of mercenaries hired by the Empire. One player said that they'd like to play as a small squad in a rebel sympathizer town. They're there to case the town, find out what they can about what rebel support exists, and be dug in and completely implanted by the time the main forces arrive to lay seige/overrun the town. This player has stated a desire for a good mix of social/investigative work and combat...or investigations leading up to a fight scene. I like this and it fits with what I'd like to run for our first couple of sessions.

The other player, newly committed to the game, has offered up the idea of them having to, while in town, steal something of significance to the rebel cause. He recommended it be something large so as to complicate things and thought that a statue would be something challenging. He believes that the statue offers support in some form towards protecting the town from invaders. I'm good with this too and told him we can run with it but the actual purpose of the statue will be something to be investigated while in town. Its up to them to find out whether it actually holds any protective significance or if its just an expensive statue.

This is what we have so far. One other player has went so far as to say that all this sounds good to him but hasn't offered anything else to the discussions. The other player is yet to respond to any of our email discussions as I was afraid would be the case. I talk to him on the phone regularly and he's interested but just hates typing.

Any suggestions at this point? I'm getting ready to go with what we've put together so far and begin character concept discussions.

[Thor Olavsrud]

One thing that I do that works pretty well (though I have to do some coaxing occasionally) is to ask: So when you were creating this character, what did you see him doing in your mind's eye? Paint me a scene that explains what you have in mind with this character.

If that still doesn't give them something to work with, start looking at the skills they took, especially the ones that seem curious to you, or the ones that they gave a high exponent. Ask them why they took this skill or that, and what they imagine doing with it.

[luke]

Sounds like you should get everyone together for a character burning session. Tell 'em to come with a concept in mind based on what you've discussed, but not to have anything firm. The concept and the campaign goals just might change.

Discuss the characters in relationship to the campaign goals. I think stealing a statue that is the heart of the morale of a town defending against the mercenary company is a great idea. It's like a medieval frat prank! ;)

Give everyone at least one Belief that ties into the completion of the mission and you're all set to go!

-L

[donbaloo]

That's good advice Thor. Up to this point though I've sort of driven the discussion strictly towards what they want for me to present to them scenario-wise. I told everybody that once we had a good idea of what everyone was interested in that we would start character discussions. Should I have reversed this? Maybe do it all simultaneously? I figure that once we get into character discussions, then burning, I might get some more ideas towards what they're wanting by using the clues as you've suggested. Sort of a...discuss desired scenario, discuss characters, burn characters, then return and fill in more details of scenario desires according to how the characters have been built?

[Thor Olavsrud]

Sort of a...discuss desired scenario, discuss characters, burn characters, then return and fill in more details of scenario desires according to how the characters have been built?

I'm totally down with this. But, as Abzu points out, not everyone builds their characters the same way. Some like to see their characters emerge organically from the creation process.

I like to start with the high level discussion: what's the theme, what sort of world, what kinds of things do we want to do, etc.

What I'm shooting for here is something along the lines of: let's do a down-and-dirty payback/revenge story where we're all small time hoods that have been royally screwed over. Now we're out to get what's coming to us.

At this point, we start talking character concepts: Fence, Thug, Extortionist, Whoremonger. We want them all pointing in a similar direction, so let's try to lay out one Belief or type of Belief that everyone has.

One guy has a belief about taking out the crime boss that was once his partner and betrayed him to get where he is today. Another is determined to get back the girl the crime boss stole. Another needs to get the dirt the crime boss is holding over his head, and the last one wants to take out the boss cause he sees a chance to step into his shoes!

Cool! Now we burn up our characters. And after they're burned, I pop the questions I posted above. When that character starts emerging out of the numbers, and you're choosing your skills and gear, you're doing it with an image in your mind of your character doing something. You need to get your players to communicate that image and make sure they get a shot at fulfilling it in play.

So I take that information and I help them evoke those things through their Beliefs and Instincts. All the while, I'm looking for ways to play those Beliefs and Instincts against each other when we get to the game.

Now I'll be the first to admit that I don't always follow this template when I start up a game, but I almost always do some variation of it. It'll work for you!

[donbaloo]

Sounds like you should get everyone together for a character burning session. Tell 'em to come with a concept in mind based on what you've discussed, but not to have anything firm. The concept and the campaign goals just might change.

Yeah, its probably time to go ahead and start hashing out some character ideas. I actually hope that the goals do change a bit once we start burning up the characters because then I'll feel like they're really becoming vested in whats going on. That'll be sweet. I was gonna continue with email discussions of characters before we get together to physically burn them due to time constraints. I'm gonna need to devote an entire evening to just teaching them the system and burning characters. I figure the stronger the image of their character they have before opening the Burner the more time we may save. Its gonna be four players with one Burner...and of course I'm not really experienced enough to be a strong benefit during Burning. I'm expecting lots of page turning and book passing. I can't wait to start seeing these beliefs being formed and getting experience at finding handles on the characters through them. I'm very pumped!

[luke]

I was gonna continue with email discussions of characters before we get together to physically burn them due to time constraints. I'm gonna need to devote an entire evening to just teaching them the system and burning characters. I figure the stronger the image of their character they have before opening the Burner the more time we may save. Its gonna be four players with one Burner...and of course I'm not really experienced enough to be a strong benefit during Burning. I'm expecting lots of page turning and book passing. I can't wait to start seeing these beliefs being formed and getting experience at finding handles on the characters through them. I'm very pumped!

The longer you keep this from the table, the farther away from the action your anti-email player gets. It's quite possible that he could be completely aliennated from the group by the time they sit down to make characters.

I strongly urge you to sit down, make the characters, and talk about the system and the game goals as you go. Thor likes to start with Beliefs for his games, so maybe that's your best bet, too. You can get character and goals out in the open, then fix the numbers.

If you want to do an introductory session to the system, create a half dozen NPCs for them and sit down and run a brawl. Works like a charm for me.

-L

[donbaloo]

The longer you keep this from the table, the farther away from the action your anti-email player gets. It's quite possible that he could be completely aliennated from the group by the time they sit down to make characters.

I strongly urge you to sit down, make the characters, and talk about the system and the game goals as you go. Thor likes to start with Beliefs for his games, so maybe that's your best bet, too. You can get character and goals out in the open, then fix the numbers.

We're heading to the table very soon. I'm wondering though what I should do once I see the characters and all the beliefs. It seems that plot creation tends to be frowned upon here so I'm just wondering how much and what to prepare before we sit down to game. Does the GM do much planning at all or do you just all sit around the table hoping the players create plot? I had envisioned preparation to be a process of creating several scene's in a flow chart type progression that focuses on the players' beliefs and instincts. Should I even go this far with planning the game? In our D&D the GM pretty much creates everything plot wise and players react to it and the GM counter-reacts. I get the feeling the BW is more about the players creating the plot in-game to which the GM reacts and they in turn counter-react. How should I go about this?

[Thor Olavsrud]

We're heading to the table very soon. I'm wondering though what I should do once I see the characters and all the beliefs. It seems that plot creation tends to be frowned upon here so I'm just wondering how much and what to prepare before we sit down to game. Does the GM do much planning at all or do you just all sit around the table hoping the players create plot? I had envisioned preparation to be a process of creating several scene's in a flow chart type progression that focuses on the players' beliefs and instincts. Should I even go this far with planning the game? In our D&D the GM pretty much creates everything plot wise and players react to it and the GM counter-reacts. I get the feeling the BW is more about the players creating the plot in-game to which the GM reacts and they in turn counter-react. How should I go about this?

You should definitely have a plan! But having a plan doesn't necessarily mean plot creation. What I recommend (and I want to be clear that this is not the only way to run Burning Wheel, just my way) is you take a hard look at the player's Beliefs and Instincts. Think about how you could challenge them.

Your planning should involve coming up with interesting situations that challenge the players to make choices about their Beliefs.

Tell you what: post some or all of the PC Beliefs here. Let's make this a group project. Everyone can contribute ideas for situations based on the Beliefs. You pick the ones you like. Wanna give it a try?

[Thor Olavsrud]

Also, take a look at this thread (http://nerdnyc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13356) over at the Nerd boards. I probably explain these ideas better over there than I have anywhere else.

[donbaloo]

Your planning should involve coming up with interesting situations that challenge the players to make choices about their Beliefs.

Tell you what: post some or all of the PC Beliefs here. Let's make this a group project. Everyone can contribute ideas for situations based on the Beliefs. You pick the ones you like. Wanna give it a try?

Sounds good. I planned to put that stuff up as soon as we get it all done. Until then...

[donbaloo]

Also, take a look at this thread (http://nerdnyc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13356) over at the Nerd boards. I probably explain these ideas better over there than I have anywhere else.

Read through the thread. I'm assuming a "bang" is the exact situational dilemma that the GM in Burning Wheel creates that challenges a player's belief? And reading through the notes on your game that you were running I have to ask, is that all the prep work you do for the game, loosely assembling several of these bangs for players to interact with? If that's what you run your game off of, holy shit. Do you think it possible that some folks just simply do not have the gift of improptu to run games in that way? I just don't know....maybe with practice it comes easier? I guess I'm just terrified that the game would merely creep along while I fumble around for the best way to react to player's actions while considering the BITs/relationships. Its a very different approach than running a "module" or even creating one. And I realize that its suppose to be very different from that sort of game but I'm not sure it something that just comes easily to everyone.

[luke]

Thor, care to enrich our friend Donbaloo with knowledge and confidence in a new thread?

-L

[Thor Olavsrud]

See the split thread here (http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1491)

[donbaloo]

Right now a player and I are wondering about Relationships and how they will be played within the game. Say my player is the bastard son of the leading noble in town. He buys a relationship with his cousin Franco, who's father is another noble landowner in the neighboring county. My player narrates Franco into the story for a meeting to discuss the possibility of Franco rounding up a small group of men from his father's retinue to help chase down a posse of highway bandits near the border to impress his father. Do I roleplay Franco accordingly or does he narrate the scene having Franco respond how sees fit? Does he tell me what happens, without any tests, or do we figure out some appropriate tests to determine whether Franco is compliant and whether he can even accomplish what my player is asking him to do?

[luke]

First, reread page 109 of the BW.

Second, to clarify, you play those Relationships as you would any other NPC. The difference here is that the players decide the overall nature of which NPCs are tied into the story and how they relate to the PCs. As the GM, it's your role to determine all the behind the scenes stuff: their secrets, their plans, their problems, etc.

Relationships are NPCs in BW. And one of the GM's roles is to control all of the NPCs. You've got to take the player's lead of course, but you must inject some of your own ideas as well! Must. Must. Must! It is your most sacred duty.

I'll leave you with this metaphor:
A happy player walks up the GM with a coil of rope in his hand.
"What's that?" asks the GM.
"It's rope. It's name is Franco, I was hoping you'd, you know, hang me with it."
"Hang you? Right now?"
"No, not now! You know, later, when I'm not expecting it."
"Sure, I think I can do that!" The GM grins evilly.
"Excellent, I can't wait!" The player does the happy dance.

-L

[donbaloo]

First, reread page 109 of the BW.
I actually reread it twice, just prior to posting the question but was unsure as to which of us or what circumstances would dictate when the player's requests are at odds with the relationship's role. Obviously the player will be narrating that relationship into the scene when they could play a significant role in the conflict at hand. I just wasn't sure whether he detailed Franco's motivations and limitations or I did it.

Your illustration made me laugh out loud and simultaneously made things pretty clear as to the purpose of relationships. The player does however get to determine the natural disposition of the relationship to himself though doesn't he? I'm assuming that if he doesn't purchase Franco as a relationship that hates him that Franco and he could have some degree of friendship established if the player wanted it that way?

[luke]

The player does however get to determine the natural disposition of the relationship to himself though doesn't he? I'm assuming that if he doesn't purchase Franco as a relationship that hates him that Franco and he could have some degree of friendship established if the player wanted it that way?

Yes. The default disposition for relationships is assumed to be amiable or friendly. The player may increase or decrease the point cost if he wants that default to change.

If you'd like to start another thread about Relationships, we should prolly go to the Character Burner or the Fevered Circle if it's about players and their relationships. (you know what I mean!)

-L

[Kublai]

In my campaigns so far, players buy relationships and tell me who they are and maybe some hook ideas. I take that in and then it's up to me to make those relationships integral to the story. The players usually don't tell me how to use them or what their reactions will be.

For instance, in my last Wrath of the Ronin game, the executioner bought a bladesmith contact. That was all the information I had. So I thought about it and decided that the smith would be the only NPC who had knowledge as to where the PCs could find necessary spirit weapons. It worked great.

[donbaloo]

Okay, so I still haven't managed a group character burning session and I've went against all advice and began character burning with two of my four players individually due to convenient schedule openings. Nothing on Beliefs and Instincts yet though because I definately want that done with everyone together. And I have been keeping up the email discussions so everyone has had a hand in creating our scenario setting and each is aware of the character concepts that we have thus far.

Just to update you guys...
The players decided upon having the game set in a city that, according to Imperial intelligence, either hosts a large population of rebel sympathizers or has actually openly declared its rebel affiliation. The Empire has responded by sending a small mercenary unit toward to the town to whip it back in line and oust any rebel commanders that may be embedded. The mercenary unit is still several weeks out from falling upon the city but they've sent ahead a scout team that's already inside and scoping things out under the guise of being just typical travelers. That's the setting.

The two players who haven't burned anything yet say they want to play members of the scouting unit in town. They may even be the entire unit. One partially burned character is a bounty hunter in town who has nearly clamped down on his prey. The other partially burned character is the bastard son of the Lord Mayor of the city, who's a soldier in the local militia trying to win daddy's attention. We've yet to determine where the Lord Mayor stands exactly on whats going on in the city. The player is interested in buying a 2D hated relationship with his uncle as well, but I want to make sure it'll be usable for the story and not something thats wasted after we hear more input from the party as a whole.

We're tentatively schedule to gather this Friday to do a system learning and burn the characters to completion. Anyone see any serious obstacles ahead with what little we have so far? What do I need to make sure happens at the session to make sure everything is gonna fit well? This is being set up to be a one or two session scenario (though that's a total guess since I have no idea how quickly its gonna run) and I thought about trying to have everyone have one belief that deals with the same subject or person maybe. Not necessarily the same belief, but just dealing with the same subject. Would this be prudent?

[Thor Olavsrud]

Not necessarily the same belief, but just dealing with the same subject. Would this be prudent?

Yes. Not only prudent, but the best thing you could do. Given the setting, my first instinct is that it should be about the rebellion/future of the town.

The character whose father is the Lord Mayor (THAT has the makings of a rockin' relationship), is doing you a HUGE favor. That's good stuff. He grew up with the people in this town. Probably knows at least a few people in the rebellion. How's he feel about that?

[Fourth Horseman]

I'll leave you with this metaphor:
A happy player walks up the GM with a coil of rope in his hand.
"What's that?" asks the GM.
"It's rope. It's name is Franco, I was hoping you'd, you know, hang me with it."
"Hang you? Right now?"
"No, not now! You know, later, when I'm not expecting it."
"Sure, I think I can do that!" The GM grins evilly.
"Excellent, I can't wait!" The player does the happy dance.

-L

Ahh, yeah dude. Sometimes the constant betrayal schtick gets really freakin' old.

Choo-chooooooooooooooo . . .

[donbaloo]

Yes. Not only prudent, but the best thing you could do. Given the setting, my first instinct is that it should be about the rebellion/future of the town.
Advice noted.

The character whose father is the Lord Mayor (THAT has the makings of a rockin' relationship), is doing you a HUGE favor. That's good stuff. He grew up with the people in this town. Probably knows at least a few people in the rebellion. How's he feel about that?

Well we've not delved very deeply because I felt we were in danger of building too much around this character without others' direct input. We were both definately very excited about the way his character was turning out and the possibilities it could potentially offer. We brought things to a halt though when it was getting late and his character creation was turning into its on game and story. :D I didnt' want us to get too out of hand with it.

The problem is deciding whether the Lord is actually involved in the rebellion or is trying to oppose it in his city. We left off with thinking that he supported it but that the bastard son didn't, and was torn on supporting his father or sticking to what he believed in. The problem is, if this character actually goes rebel, that puts me with at least one character rebel and at least 2 strongly opposed to the rebellion. I know this could be good creative roleplay juice for most of you guys but that sounds like a lot of cut-scene play to me and :oops: ...I've NEVER ran any game with cut scenes to that extent. I just wouldn't know how to keep everyone interested during a cut scene that wasn't their own.

[Kublai]

I wouldn't allow the players to be on both sides of the fence. They're either for the rebellion or against it. Unless you want it to devolve into a PvP scenario, of course. But with only two planned sessions, you would spend 75% of the time settling Duel of Wits between the two factions.

The way to do it is to send in your players as anti-rebellion mercenaries going in to take care of business. Then, throw them situations that force them to decide between sticking with their Belief or going against it. Perhaps the father is the rebellion leader? Or maybe there's a really good reason the people are revolting that the players never considered? Maybe some demon or wizard is twisting the townsfolk? Maybe they have to kill children or some other heinous act in order to stifle it? Figure out why they are rebelling before the first session.

These are elements that should be agreed upon with the players before the game begins.

[luke]

what Pete says.

-L

[donbaloo]

I wouldn't allow the players to be on both sides of the fence. They're either for the rebellion or against it.

8) Good. I was hoping for support on that one. Kublai, I like the notion having the rebellion due to some "unforeseen" cause that the players really have to think about to determine which is worse, the rebellion or the consequences of not rebelling. So you say that should be something decided on by the players as well? No suprise twist in game to find out that its the doing of some demon curse like you mentioned? Everything above water for everyone?

Also, Thor, you were talking about the possibility of the bastard knowing some rebels. I had thought of that but am wondering, mechanically and preparation wise, how that works. I imagine that at some point the player calls for a circles test to get in touch with someone in the know...someone of their creation. But what I'm wondering is this...I know you guys don't do a ton of pre-game prep work but what if I had an NPC that fit this bill. Go ahead and have him moderately sketched and have detailed the extent of his knowledge and connections. Then, if the player calls for that circles test, bring that NPC in renamed and immediately reshaped as the Circles winner wants but already having his knowledge outlined by my planned NPC? Am I on the right track as to how to pull the strings of the game at all?

[Kublai]

Ah, but here's the fun for you as a GM! It's your job to take your players' knowledge and twist it! Ok, so they decide that the rebellion might be caused by some rogue sorcerer, but what if you make it that the rogue sorcerer is actually the father in disguise, ala Senator Palpatine, which the players don't know? You've taken the group's idea and made it better and very intimate to them.

Also, it's up to you as a GM whether or not to use all your players' ideas. By keeping some and dismissing others, you can keep the story familiar but have lots of unexpected turns.

Finally, don't set any final confrontation in stone. In the last two campaigns I ran, began with only the bare minimum of an idea. It was only after paying attention to the players' desires during play that I was able to find inspiration to ensure the last conflict would be satisfactory to everyone.

As for your question to Thor, your instinct sounds correct to me. You can definitely have some NPCs ready to jump in with goal-important information before the game begins. It's up to you to subtly suggest him when your player is first deciding to use his Circles. But, just in case the player doesn't take to your idea, be flexible with the shape of the NPC, if not his role in the story.

[donbaloo]

Okay good, things are starting to crystallize a bit more for me now.
But, just in case the player doesn't take to your idea, be flexible with the shape of the NPC, if not his role in the story.
Yeah, this is basically what I was trying to describe...an NPC without a face or name but a purpose. Thanks Kublai!

[Thor Olavsrud]

Also, Thor, you were talking about the possibility of the bastard knowing some rebels. I had thought of that but am wondering, mechanically and preparation wise, how that works. I imagine that at some point the player calls for a circles test to get in touch with someone in the know...someone of their creation. But what I'm wondering is this...I know you guys don't do a ton of pre-game prep work but what if I had an NPC that fit this bill. Go ahead and have him moderately sketched and have detailed the extent of his knowledge and connections. Then, if the player calls for that circles test, bring that NPC in renamed and immediately reshaped as the Circles winner wants but already having his knowledge outlined by my planned NPC? Am I on the right track as to how to pull the strings of the game at all?

What Kublai said. Also, you are perfectly within your rights as a GM to introduce an NPC into the game that the players didn't contact through a Circles roll. Early on, when back in town, he can run into an old friend while out doing stuff. That's perfectly legitimate.

Also, remember that Circles rolls are easiest when you aren't searching for a very specific character. You need to find someone with ties to the black market? "I used to know a kid when I lived here. Before I left, he was a courier for the Tanner Street Gang. Maybe he knows some folks..."

That makes it very easy for you to shape the rest of him to your needs. The only things you have to abide by with the roll above is that he has to have a decent Black Market-wise. If the Circles roll succeeds, he's friendly or at least neutral to the players. If the roll fails, he can be hostile to the players, overtly or covertly.

[donbaloo]

That makes it very easy for you to shape the rest of him to your needs. The only things you have to abide by with the roll above is that he has to have a decent Black Market-wise. If the Circles roll succeeds, he's friendly or at least neutral to the players. If the roll fails, he can be hostile to the players, overtly or covertly.

Okay, I figured GM introduced NPCs were still legitimate but just wanted to make sure. Since contacts through Circles are PC created, do you guys as GM ever run the arrival of that Circle's NPC and later look back and think that maybe you went over the top during your off the cuff interaction with him? Maybe look back and say, "You know, I probably shouldn't have played that Tanner Stree Gang kid as giving up knowledge of the level he provided. He probably wouldn't have known quite that much but in the moment that's what came to me." Does that make sense?

[Kublai]

I can see that, but it's not happened yet. That's a GM thing, though, and not a mechanical thing.

[donbaloo]

Okay, the first face to face group discussion went down last night and I guess, overall, it was pretty lackluster. Take all the trouble that I've been having grasping the whole player driven game notion and multiply it by four. Spirits were relatively good throughout though and I think they enjoyed building the rough skeletons of their characters. But we progressed at an absolute snail's pace and I cannot recommend a character burning session with only one CB. Aye yai yai yaaaiii :roll:

I did get to spend some time talking to them about Beliefs and I read the section on The Role of the Players from the back of the system book. We firmed up our ideas on the setting and scenario basis. We locked down character concepts and we now have the life path progression for all the characters and a couple of rough Beliefs that still need to be more finely tuned perhaps. We still have a long way to go though because we didn't even get into a short discussion about the mechanics of the game, we barely got started on BITRs, two of the characters don't even have their skill points allotted yet but they know the skills they're gonna take. I decided to go with 5 lifepaths instead of four because considering the settup, they need to be somewhat competent at the things they're good at in order to fit well into the story.

Here's roughly what we have so far:
Character 1: Bastard Son of the Lord Mayor/Mercenary
Born Noble-->Bastard-->City Guard-->Prisoner of War-->Sergeant
This character is mostly martial oriented but has some interesting tie-ins to the rebel city and he serves in the mercenary unit. No BITs yet.

Character 2: Bounty Hunter
Born Peasant-->Trapper-->Village Guard-->Corrupt Sergeant-->?
This character still needs his last lifepath. He is in the city closing in on his most recent target. Should be simple to make his target a rebel of interest to the scouting party that is the rest of the group.

One rough belief: This rebellion simply creates more chaos from which crime and even rougher times are bred. (I'm still trying to coax him into adding his role within this belief...how he's invested in it.)

Character 3: Manipulator/Mercenary
City Born-->Student-->Advocate-->Confidence Man-->Scout
I really like this character and see him as being a strong component. Definately a good choice for the mercenary unit to send ahead as a poke-about. He'll be played by a good friend of mine who's a Methodist minister...he's an awesome player! Anyway, his only Belief at this point is: Everyone has a weak point and I can use that to manipulate them.

Character 4: One who is good at reading people(I don't know how to word this and we had an even harder time conceptualizing it through the lifepaths...in D&D this character would have a high Sense Motive skill...don't know what that would be in BW)/Pretender/Mercenary
Village Born-->Serving Wench-->Student-->Performer-->Foot Soldier
Played by my wife and should pull together as a neat character once we put some more thought into her.

2 Rough Beliefs at this point: The Rebels here are lowly thugs and criminals and must be thrown down.

Entertainment brings the community together. (We're still trying to figure out what to do with this one...how to make it work.)

So, you can see that we're having a little trouble with formulating Beliefs. And we haven't even touched on Instincts yet. Its a rough process and I think its showing us that we're just not accustomed to really building living, breathing, believable, conflicted characters and its a big step for us. As much as we hate to admit it, maybe we have just been building combat machines to bash goblins with over the years. Hmmm. I know its not much, but any comments on this?

[Thor Olavsrud]

It's cool man! You're moving forward. This is a good start.

Try these or variations of them:

[Entertainment brings the community together.]

1. I will end arguments and bring peace between friends and neighbors with music and dance.

2. I will help communities gain new perspective on their troubles through music and dance.

3. I will bring communities together through my entertainment gifts.

[The Rebels here are lowly thugs and criminals and must be thrown down.]

1. I will stop the rebels from corrupting the common people with their filth at all costs.

2. I must kill the leader of the rebels because he knows of my schemes and all I have built will be destroyed if he lives.

3. I am a loyal subject of the Emperor in all things, and I must cut out these rebels like cancer from a body.

4. The smart money's on the Emperor, and I'll always go where the money is.

5. These rebels will destroy all that is good in this place, and I won't let them do it.
.
[This rebellion simply creates more chaos from which crime and even rougher times are bred.]

1. This rebellion simply creates more chaos from which crime and even rougher times are bred, and I will profit from it with a free conscience.

2. This rebellion simply creates more chaos from which crime and even rougher times are bred, I will do the right thing and stop it.

etc. etc.

In essence, what your players are doing is writing the priorities for their characters. But deeper than that, they are strongly influencing the game they are going to play. If their beliefs are about stopping the "corruption" of the rebellion, there's a good chance that they are going to find out that the rebellion has done some good things and the empire has done some very bad things. What will they do now? If your corrupt sergeant has the belief that now is the time to finally step up and do the right thing, he better believe that this story is going to seeim being tempted to do the wrong thing more powerfully than ever.

Does that help?

[luke]

i agree, I think you're off to an auspicious start. Note that the players who have the strongest concepts at this stage are going to most ready and most willing to participate right off the bat. If you're getting a lot of energy from one of them, don't shy away from letting them be the catalyst for the first scenario. Show everyone else how it's done and then fold in their BITRs as you go.

And speaking of conflicted Beliefs... "Everyone has weak point and I can use that to manipulate them." Hm, how do you draw that into play? It's a condescending Belief that's actually hard to challenge -- his job is to manipulate the weak-willed NPCs. So, uh, what's the deal? In this case, what I would do is create two different NPCs or relationships. One, an NPC with no dirt on him, no weak point. Someone this guy has got to confront at some point. Two, a relationship -- a friend, a brother -- who is seemingly strong-willed, but as it turns out, he's been having an affair (or something) and the group needs something from him. So the Con Man's got to put his own brother on the grill and extort money/favor/information from him. And lavish him with artha as the scenes unfold!

Also, don't forget that you can buy the LoM to printout now. LPs, stat charts, trait and skill descriptions for everyone!
-L

[donbaloo]

Thanks guys, that does actually help some. :) The Bounty Hunter player was actually with me while I checked the forums today and saw the suggestion of. "1. This rebellion simply creates more chaos from which crime and even rougher times are bred, and I will profit from it with a free conscience", and fell in love with it. Sweet. Have yet to further discuss the other recommendations with the players.
If their beliefs are about stopping the "corruption" of the rebellion, there's a good chance that they are going to find out that the rebellion has done some good things and the empire has done some very bad things. What will they do now?
This is what I'm really looking forward to playing up for the guys. Because even though they're having a really tough time of vocalizing it and pinning it down in a belief, they're really bought in on the whole support the Empire idea they've created. So even without them coming right out and saying it, due to our detailed scenario discussion I know they'll enjoy this sort of conflict.
Note that the players who have the strongest concepts at this stage are going to most ready and most willing to participate right off the bat. If you're getting a lot of energy from one of them, don't shy away from letting them be the catalyst for the first scenario. Show everyone else how it's done and then fold in their BITRs as you go.
Excellent advice. I've really been sweating it trying to get everyone bought in on the same level. I know my players enough to know that even if they've not had a really heavy hand in the early creation stages they will still enjoy the story as it unfolds. I need to keep that in mind and instead of trying to force participation much beyond what they're accustomed too just stick with the one or two that I have that are REALLY getting into driving this story. Like you said, that way when the others see the story burning down paths that those characters are laying and artha is flying for it...I know the guys will catch on.

And speaking of conflicted Beliefs... "Everyone has weak point and I can use that to manipulate them." Hm, how do you draw that into play? It's a condescending Belief that's actually hard to challenge -- his job is to manipulate the weak-willed NPCs.

I liked this belief when it came out and the immediate idea I got from it was similar to what you were recommending. I can foresee scenes where he has to decide if its really worth it, as measured by his decency, to put the thumbscrews into someone and expose their shortcomings in order to extract needed information if it means marring an otherwise decent NPC's character and causing them significant shame etc. He has stated that though his background and skills perhaps gives him the appearance of being callous and cold...he's actually a pretty decent person at heart. This will play well into the recommended style of conflict you've offered up Luke.

Damn, I completely missed the news portion that covered the release of the lifepath PDFs. That's awesome. Smartly priced too I think.

I'll add more as it comes. Thanks guys.

[Durgil]

Damn, I completely missed the news portion that covered the release of the lifepath PDFs. That's awesome. Smartly priced too I think.
I definitely agree. I picked them up myself. Now if I can find a few players here in Indy to play. :wink:

[donbaloo]

So, since we've got our game concept smoothed out should I go ahead and start working on some NPCs or would it be best for me to wait and see what all the players come up with in their RARs (Reputations, Affiliations, Relationships)? Should I be putting much thought into the scenario setting and its presentation yet?

[Thor Olavsrud]

So, since we've got our game concept smoothed out should I go ahead and start working on some NPCs or would it be best for me to wait and see what all the players come up with in their RARs (Reputations, Affiliations, Relationships)? Should I be putting much thought into the scenario setting and its presentation yet?

It's cool to start forging ahead (we can slot relationships in a little later), but let's not put the cart before the horse. First, let's take a look at everyone's BITs. We want to figure out different ways those BITs can be challenged. Once we've got some ideas in that regard, THEN we go back and start working on NPCs that will help us bring those challenges into play. Make sense?

[donbaloo]

Makes perfect sense. I still don't have their completed BITs yet though, we've not had a chance to do much talking about gaming since the last gathering. I'll keep you guys updated as I receive them along with my kneejerk ideas that blossom.