Acceptable BITs

[Piikki]

There is lots of chitchat in wheel of life section about acceptable believes and instincts. could you please post here some nice check list that newbie GM can use to check his players Bs and Is ? Or something to help with that stuff.
BW is quite diffrent from other games that i've played and so i have lots of learning to do and this is one way to cut corners...

[Verrain]

There was once a sticky on the topic of Instincts. Ah yes here it is in the Classic forum.

http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=700

Definitely worth checking out.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Yeah, that stuff made it into Revised more or less unchanged, actually.

Anyway, the whole reason we zero in on BITs is that they, together with tests, generate what we call the 'currency' of Burning Wheel.

Tests are currency (i.e., things that players want and GMs need to make sure they get -- though not too many too quickly) because they are what allow you to Advance skills and open new ones.

BITs are currency engines because it is through BITs that you get Artha. Really think about that for a second. Artha is the grease that keeps Burning Wheel's engine running smoothly. It's what allows players to say "This test is important! I'm not taking any chances with it!" or "I'm not letting this result stand! We have to succeed here!"

Believe me, it's important in actual play. Players want it! And they won't have as much fun without it.

Ok. Good. Now go back and read the Earning Artha section from page 65 to 67 of the system book. Seriously.

Back? Ok. As should be abundantly clear now, in order for a player to earn Artha, he HAS TO BE ABLE TO USE HIS BITS IN PLAY!!! Even more importantly, he is telling the GM and all the other players exactly HOW he expects to be rewarded in play. So what does THAT mean?

Consider a character with the Belief: I will avenge my parents' deaths no matter what the cost!

Let's say he finds himself in a situation where the rival for his lover's hand offers to tell him a major clue to the identity of the killers, if the character agrees to relinquish his courtship of the girl.

Not only does everyone at the table know that a major event is going down, they know the Belief, and so they KNOW that Artha is on the line. And it's probably going to be Persona -- IF the character chooses to give up on his girl or give up on his parents' murderer.

Additionally, a Belief needs to reflect something that players actually want to come up in play. I've seen lots of players 'turtle' with their Beliefs. They don't want GMs to use Beliefs against them that they come up with Beliefs that could never come up in play. In doing so, they've robbed the GM of a valuable resource and also robbed themselves of the opportunity to earn Artha. The way it is supposed to work: Players write down their Beliefs and GMs focus the game on test those Beliefs, reinforcing them, tearing them down, getting players to change 'em. And story emerges.

So, with Beliefs, make them active! Make it something that can be challenged! Make it something you care enough about to deal with in play.

[luke]

Hey Piiki,

I wrote this book called the Character Burner, you might want to check it out. On pages 30-33, I talk about Beliefs and Instincts and how to create them.

:roll:

-L

[luke]

Kaomera's Turle post split here:
http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1506

[Piikki]

Hey Piiki,

I wrote this book called the Character Burner, you might want to check it out. On pages 30-33, I talk about Beliefs and Instincts and how to create them.

:roll:

-L

You should've made it more clear in that book, so there would be no need for questions ;)

[kaomera]

Ok. Good. Now go back and read the Earning Artha section from page 65 to 67 of the system book. Seriously.

I think I've said something about how I find the BW rules to be very deeply interconnected. There is a definite benefit (at least for me) to reading p 65-67 of the system book and p 30-33 of the Character Burner back to back, thinking hard about it, and then going back for a re-read. I am finding that a lot of what immediately comes to mind when I try to think of Instincts for a character are actually Beliefs, just because of how I define the term "Instincts". Overall, I think I'm having an easy time coming up with 5 or 6 Beliefs that I can pick through / refine, but getting good Instincts is much harder for me.

Paka has posted a really great list of Beliefs and Instincts for the characters in his next one-shot (http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=13019#13019). I really like them all a lot, they are definitely very flavorful, and I think that they all ought to work very well in terms of the Artha mechanics. However, some of the Instincts don't seem to me to be very straight-forward mechanically in terms of being "macros". A lot of them seem rather open-ended or do not seem to have a specific "action" defined to them to me. I'm not saying I don't like them, I do; I think those kinds of Instincts are going to be more fun to play than purely mechanical stuff. So, what's up with that?

EDIT: Having looked over the examples of Instincts in all three books, I think I'm fixing on "mechanical" as in "game mechanics", instead of as in a specific physical action... I'm still not 100% on this, but it is getting clearer.

[Piikki]

If character has an instinct that says when allies hesitate, use command.
Does this automatically replace his action with command ? Does he have to forfeit action if so ?

[Verrain]

As I understand things, instincts only let you break the action structure of combat before the combat actually starts. So if you have the "Draw sword at first sign of trouble" instinct, the sword is drawn without having to spend two actions. Once you are in the thick of combat, the instinct doesn't help you "break the rules".

So if something forced a steel test before actual hand to hand combat occured, an automatic test to rally people with command would be allowed before the scripts were written for combat. In the middle of combat, the player would have the choice to obey the instinct or not. If he forfeits actions to use his command skill to aid another, and doing so put himself in danger in his own combat, that would be the basis for awarding fate Artha. Obeying your instincts when it is not convienient to do so gets you Artha.

[mtiru]

hey gang-

i've been following this thread and its related conversations, but having never burned a character before now, i think my entire group is confused about exactly this issue of what is a mechanically acceptable instinct or belief/

i'm going to throw out the instincts and beliefs for a character i burned to see if they pass a test.

the character is a trouble prone vagrant type (think the "Artful Dodger" from Oliver Twist if he grew up and became a vagabond).

Instincts:
Never let anyone steal my shoes.
Always recognize an opportunity for profit.
When entering an unfamiliar place, assess escape routes.
Beliefs:
A life without responsibility is the only one worth living.
Self pity and self importance have no place in a free man's life.
My brother and I couldn't be more different and I can't count on him. (the brother is a soldier in the local army, and a minor non-hateful relationship)

The Instincts, I think, have the greatest challenge of being vague - I'm to understand that they are supposed to be more mechanical in nature, but I wanted to avoid having combat related instincts.

What say ye?

[jmspencer]

Instincts:
Never let anyone steal my shoes.
Always recognize an opportunity for profit.
When entering an unfamiliar place, assess escape routes.

Of the three, only the last seems to be an instinct in the sense it's used in the rules.

Perhaps better instincts playing off the first two might be

"If my shoes are not on my feet, keep them in my sight." and "When entering a new situation, always look for opportunity for profit"... though even that latter seems weak. Possibly that instinct might best be expressed as a belief?

[mtiru]

thanks for the feedback. i guess it's important to have the instincts be mechanically useful and important for the game play. i'm afraid that a lot of them are going to focus on combat, which i something i'd like to avoid with my character.

for example, if i have an instinct about my shoes - aren't i telling the GM that i want that to involve my character in some kind of struggle? if it's not important, then it won't come into play and it's a wasted insstinct.

it could potentially be more of a trait? or just character color that is mentioned in the game - with the hopes that the GM won't just have shoe thieves aplenty.

the "opportunity for profit" runs the risk of cliche and being weak. what i would want to convey is that the character isn't too daft to see the potential to make money in whatever situation he's in, but isn't willing to get killed to make a quick buck... more of a belief indeed.

[Verrain]

the "opportunity for profit" runs the risk of cliche and being weak. what i would want to convey is that the character isn't too daft to see the potential to make money in whatever situation he's in, but isn't willing to get killed to make a quick buck... more of a belief indeed.

Agreed but there is no reason why you couldn't work something of that into an instinct.

When buying something, always Haggle.
When entering a room, Assess for the wealthiest.
When entering a new place, check Circles for a business contact.

That sort of thing.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Instincts:
Never let anyone steal my shoes.
Always recognize an opportunity for profit.
When entering an unfamiliar place, assess escape routes.

Some good suggestions above. The last one is a great instinct. Here are some alternatives for the first two:

Always know where my shoes are.
Never allow my shoes to leave my presence.

Always look for an opportunity for profit.

As you can see, these are mostly the same with different wording. Why did I reword them? It simply has to do with statement of Intent. If you "never let anyone steal your shoes," what does that mean? Does your spider sense go off when your shoes are in a different room and someone tries to steal them? No. So let your instinct describe HOW you keep them from being stolen. Do you never take them off? Do you always have them with you? etc. THAT's the instinct.

"Always recognize an opportunity for profit is the same deal. Is the GM just supposed to say, "hey, you could profit here?" No. That's not really fair to anyone.

Instead, this becomes a 'character-centric' instinct. The player is going to play this character as always looking for that golden opportunity. When he plays the instinct and gets himself in trouble or kicks the story in a new, interesting and unexpected direction, he earns Artha.

[Kublai]

Kublai's Guide to Better BITS, Rule #2:

A well-worded Instinct will answer the question "How?"

[jmspencer]

Since the poster above got such great feedback, I wanted to ask for feedback on the BITs I have for a character I'm making for one of the Play-by-Post games...

Concept: Chararacter is a priest of a god of Death and the Road/Travelling, who is also something of a classic trickster deity.

Beliefs:
- All power but my god’s is temporary, for in the end all things belong to The Stranger. Sometimes people need to be reminded of the humility which should come from this fact.
- People are at their best (and truest) when faced with the unexpected and the unknown.
- My path is not random, but is laid for me by the Walking Man. Therefore, I should always be watchful for a task he has led me to.

Instincts:
- Never own more than I can carry.
- Never be without my walking staff.
- Upon the death of sentient beings, always perform the Rites of the Last Journey before the following sunrise (unless another priest of the Stranger performs the duty.)

I know I need to clarify at least the second Instinct and maybe the second Belief... any ideas?

[luke]

Beliefs:
- All power but my god’s is temporary, for in the end all things belong to The Stranger. Sometimes people need to be reminded of the humility which should come from this fact.
- People are at their best (and truest) when faced with the unexpected and the unknown.
- My path is not random, but is laid for me by the Walking Man. Therefore, I should always be watchful for a task he has led me to.


Is that the sound of a vacuum I hear? What is the game about? What is the character going to be doing in the game? What's the conflict? What's at stake?

-L

[Thor Olavsrud]

Hi jm,

Your Instincts seem fine to me. I don't have a problem with 'em. I think you need to tighten your Beliefs though. Below are a series of questions that spring to mind for GM-me when looking at your Beliefs. By answering them, we may get some tighter, more useable Beliefs for you that are still along the same lines.

- All power but my god’s is temporary, for in the end all things belong to The Stranger. Sometimes people need to be reminded of the humility which should come from this fact.

What constitutes forgetting the necessary humility and what is the necessary humility? What does 'reminding' them entail? When you see this playing out in your mind's eye, what conflict do you see this Belief applying to (remember, by conflict I mean a situation in which your character has to make a difficult choice about something)?

- People are at their best (and truest) when faced with the unexpected and the unknown.

Honestly, I have no idea how I would test this if I were your GM. How about focusing it in on your character more? What do you think would be fun for your character to believe/do when faced with the unexpected and unknown? What does "at their best" mean to you/the character?

- My path is not random, but is laid for me by the Walking Man. Therefore, I should always be watchful for a task he has led me to.

What do you mean by a path laid for you by the Walking Man? Let's assume that you recognize such a task. What does your character believe he should do?

[Thor Olavsrud]

Is that the sound of a vacuum I hear? What is the game about? What is the character going to be doing in the game? What's the conflict? What's at stake?

You can read it all here (http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1566)

[jmspencer]

Thor,

See, this is why I post stuff in places like this... I know what I'm going for, but I don't really word them the way I need to for the GM to be able to do what he needs to. So here're my thoughts on your questions...

- All power but my god’s is temporary, for in the end all things belong to The Stranger. Sometimes people need to be reminded of the humility which should come from this fact.

What constitutes forgetting the necessary humility and what is the necessary humility? What does 'reminding' them entail? When you see this playing out in your mind's eye, what conflict do you see this Belief applying to (remember, by conflict I mean a situation in which your character has to make a difficult choice about something)?

This is more trying to give the character a sense of overconfidence and near-zealotry, other faiths don't matter because in the end you still die and it's not your god who matters to you then, it's mine. I wanted to give him a reason to try to put people in what he perceives to be their place by, for lack of a better phrase, foiling plans. or, sometimes, just taking someone down a peg or three. More importantly, it constitutes a reason for getting involved in the plans of priests of OTHER gods, to make sure they don't try to take for themselves power which ultimately he doesn't believe is theirs.

- People are at their best (and truest) when faced with the unexpected and the unknown.

Honestly, I have no idea how I would test this if I were your GM. How about focusing it in on your character more? What do you think would be fun for your character to believe/do when faced with the unexpected and unknown? What does "at their best" mean to you/the character?

This wasn't so much about my character as it is indicating his penchant for keeping people "off their game", mainly so he can evaluate them as friends or foes when they're at what he thinks is their most honest.

- My path is not random, but is laid for me by the Walking Man. Therefore, I should always be watchful for a task he has led me to.

What do you mean by a path laid for you by the Walking Man? Let's assume that you recognize such a task. What does your character believe he should do?

What I meant by that is his belief in destiny being absolutely laid out for him by his god, and that he should constantly be trying to recognize opportunities to do things to benefit his faith... not sure what that would be... hmm... yeah, gotta work on that one even more than the others.

[Thor Olavsrud]

ok. I'm going to go back and re-read the Keiber Burning thread before I respond.

[mtiru]

thanks for all the pointers, folks.

i'm so into the idea of having these compelling beliefs and instincts - it gives the player so much more control over the rewards.

having the mechanical "how" answered in every instinct is also great.

as a general question to folks who have GMed or played in a handful of BW sessions, what is the tendency of players to focus on combat related instincts?

[luke]

as a general question to folks who have GMed or played in a handful of BW sessions, what is the tendency of players to focus on combat related instincts?

Sorry Mayuran, I don't quite understand your question. Could you restate it?

thanks,
-L

[Kublai]

About a quarter of Instincts I've seen are combat-related, though I really, really try to guide players away from such. Such instincts don't help the story and therefore rarely ever earn the player Artha.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Instincts seem to run the gamut. It's usually counter-productive to load up on lots of combat-related Instincts if your character is not a warrior. I encourage players to come up with Instincts that flow from the character and reveal something about him.

Remember too that Instincts can generate Artha. In fact, they are a player saying: I want to be awarded Artha for THIS situation. Which naturally also means that a GM should help make such situations to arise during play.

They are much more than just mechanical macros. Along with Beliefs, they are a player's opportunity to shape the game everyone will be playing together.

[Piikki]

Combat related instincts are quite easy to come by, but others are bit more difficult. Always/never instincts are not too difficult, but noncombat if/then instincts are quite hard. Perhaps some suggestions ?