Resources

[luke]

Personally, I get very bored with tracking money in a game. PC expenses can never be adequately represented, in my opinion.

Sure you make 100 gold pieces as a reward and now you can buy all sorts of snazzy armor and weapons. But what about the general cost of living? What about food, lodging, bills, loans, repairs, etc?

See, I like a gritty game where players can be poor and out of luck, but not so crunchy that it becomes unmanageable detailing of pennies.

So, in that vein, has anyone played Marvel Superheroes? In that game you have a Resources stat that you test when you need something. You don't clock dollars and cents if you need a Lear Jet, you test your resources to see if your character can swing it at the time. And beyond that, resources covers and determines your lifestyle.

Do you think something like this would fit in BW?
Where a player still spends RPs to buy equipment and contacts, but then can also buy a "lifestyle"? That lifestyle then determines (without costing it out) what you can afford in-game. And if you want to acquire worldly goods that are beyond your means you can test your resources somehow?

Brainstorm with me.
-abzu

[Mad Hatter]

I can definitely see where you are coming from, abzu. Balancing my checkbook is not one of my favorite activities in real life, nor does it hold any particular allure in fantasy. Since all of this is an abstraction anyway, why not abstract the resources further?

Still, something satisfying about the clink of carefully enumerated gold pieces added to one's belt pouch.

[luke]

agreed. you want to have the satisfaction of material reward at least available in the context of the game. But as you, me and your checkbook know, carefully counted monies don't necessarily equal wealth or economic power.

Hm, what about folding Affiliations, Reputation and Resources into one ... um ... thing?

hrm.

[NiallNai]

But as you, me and your checkbook know, carefully counted monies don't necessarily equal wealth or economic power.

Hm, what about folding Affiliations, Reputation and Resources into one ... um ... thing?

hrm.

I remember something from Ars Magica commenting on commerce and the buying power of money. That items like swords were often only available to nobility. That the class or caste that the person belongs to often determined the availability of an item. In addition, weaponsmiths and armorers weren't necessarily freelance workers, they were employed by nobility and were part of a household. A blacksmith might repair farm equipment and make simple items, but those skilled enough to make a sword or chainmail were not in business for themselves.

Just my two cents.

[Mad Hatter]

Actually, rolling Affiliations, Reputation, and Resources into one uber-resources number makes sense in this context. A lot of times, it's not how much money you have, but who you know.

[luke]

ok, so i've been informed that this has been done in a number of other games (aside from MSH, which is one of my favorites, btw).

anyway, let's talk nuts and bolts. What would suffice for a mechanic in BW?

[NiallNai]

How about a resource stat, like other stats. It could open up based on the setting of the character. And it could later be modified by Resource points that go unspent at the end of character burning.

The obstacle could be the value of the item, modified by social modifiers. Such as an item generally reserved for nobility would be harder to get for someone with a soldier's pay than for a noble.

Some large purchases, such as a noble buying a mansion, could deplete a resource, lower the exponent.

Shades could represent someone who is beyond normal wealth, kinda like the Bill Gates of the fantasy world. But that is just a thought to keep things working in the whole system.

How is it advanced? Perhaps wealth gathered from adventuring can count as a test toward advancement. This would free up the bean counting.

I hope this helps.

[eruditus]

Not a stat, an Attribute like Steel called Assets.

- Each setting has a trait that determines their starting Assets and what maximum exponent the Attribute can be at.
- Each social resource have an Ob modifier to Assets.
- Asset Exponent can be increased by one for every 10 Resource points to your setting max.
- Standard of Living is a new thing to buy with resources (generally about 5 points per level with 5 seperate levels)
- Each level of Standard of Living becomes a dedicated die (like sustained spells and Will) that is set aside while you maintain that standard (and the ability to return to that standard at will - you still have to pay rent and maintain connections even when your on the road). You make an Asset test in order to increase your standard of living and can drop sustained dice almost at will to increase Assets and lower your standard of living.

Goods and services are a complex series of Obs and Asset requirements based on supply, demand, local resources, craftsman and complexity of the commodity.

In a culture that deals in coin then each Asset level gives them some starting coin and a scaled stipend (its up to the GM when they have access to this if they are out in the wilderness and their affiliations and reputation can possible get them coin in foreign cities or through other landholders).

In a bartering culture (of which my world has both) depending on local resources then the PC would have details about where those resources come from - mines, shipping, smithy, serf farmers, etc. This info can be detailed anyway for both currency and bartered systems but it becomes even more important in bartered systems. "Adventurers" can easily collect coin and be nearly oblivious to their source (maybe a insignificant contact can be their accountant).

I also have a super secret aspect of this system I have been developing but that shall not be expounded upon yet :) Partially to have it more ironed out and to make it more "mine" and partially to drive you compulsive types (like me) mad.

And thank you very much. Now that the cat is out of the bag ;) I was hoping to put a system like this in the new sourcebook :)

(just kidding, you may have opened the bag but I pushed out the cat :lol:)

[Kublai]

... has anyone played Marvel Superheroes? In that game you have a Resources stat that you test when you need something. You don't clock dollars and cents if you need a Lear Jet, you test your resources to see if your character can swing it at the time. And beyond that, resources covers and determines your lifestyle.


I don't like this idea at all. Such an open and vague mechanic is ripe for exploitation and loop-holing. MSH is a whacky game and is based on whacked comics. You can ask the GM for anything and roll on the chart to see if you can have it. It's preposterous, but so is MSH.

Imagine such an open Stat in BW! A player could ask for a Magic Cow and double the dice and open-end the sixes to ensure he gets it. It's too looney for BW, in my opinion. There would be no limit to the things a PC could ask for. Just constant rolling and random junk will appear in his pack.

Personally, I don't see the big deal about telling a player to subtract some numbers every now and then. And I like "shopping" during chargen. I like the fact that I have to balance material goods with contacts.

[luke]

you're missing the point, kublai.

the idea is that those "subtract some coins/points" deals are never, ever representative of a character's material wealth, the responsibilities therein, and power it brings.

The system does not have to be exploitable. MSH is exploitable because of its very nature (and the charts list easy to acquire items like skycycle and laser pistol). This system doesn' t have tobe like that.

To respond to Eruditus:
I was thinking along similar lines, but having Resources tests act like Forte vs Spell Obstacle for Tax. If you make the test, you're fine -- you absorb the cost -- if you fail the test, your resources are temporarily reduced (like tax) while you recover from that hit. If your Resources actually drops to zero it becomes permanently damaged/reduced.

Any resources tests made while you are Taxed are, of course, made at your current, reduced, rating.

-abzu

[Kublai]

This mechanic lacks a technical cap, though.

What if some freaky player decides to constantly ask for low Obstacle items or contacts? If he can easily pass his Bankrupt Test, what's to stop him?

[eruditus]

:)

I agree, MSH is wacked...

Many games use this idea - storyteller, masterbook, hero, gurps
to one degree or the other. Many of these (like my proposal) use a combination of these ideas.

I agree that I, as a GM, wouldn't allow someone to spend Artha on Assets (BTW I call them Assets instead of Resources to differentiate them from the character creation mechanic - I hate games that use the same name for different mechanical entities. No doubt the word 'level' drives me batty in D&D!)

And a lot of the good and services that you would levy Assets for would be requirement focused, not success focused (you need a certain level of Asset to even try to buy such a thing). However, haggling, streetwise and other applicable skills could be forked in for quick resolution of expensive items.

Abzu - I dig your tax ideas for the system as well.

[NiallNai]

Again, I think it depends on what the items and their caps are. Another possible modifier would be the locale of where the purchase is being attempted.

Low obstacle items are going to be the easiest to purchase. So will it matter if they can buy a lot of them.

Or make it work like Tax does for sorcerers. The more purchases made(spells cast) the more it will drain your resources(cause fatigue). That way, lots of little purchases will add up.

[eruditus]

I really dig the tax idea. Also, areas would have caps on the goods they could produce. Chances are a town only has so many 10' poles. But he could buy all of them if he wanted to.

Also, its upto to the GM to say when to use coin and when to use Assets.
Player: I want to buy a stick.
GM: Okay it cost you a few coin and you go home.
Player: uh, no, I want to buy all their sticks
GM: okay... you do not have enough coin on you, they are certainly within your means (Requires Assests of 1) but the bulk increases your Obstacle significantly.
Player: Okay my Noble affiliations, merchant affiliations and military affiliations to lower my Ob to 1.

Three weeks later...
GM: By the way, make a perception test while you sleep modified by your Deep Sleeper trait.... Its against an Ob of 4.... You don't wake up? You take a traumatic wound from a knife wound to the head. Make a steel check.... You hesitate for 4 actions? You take a Midi, two supies and a Light. Your unconscious? You take thirteen more traumatic wounds and will die in two hours alone in your bed... you spend two artha? Okay you die in five hours alone in your bed and you see out of your good eye as the assassin leaves a cloth indicating the mark of the Stick Makers Guild on your chest... make a new character.

Besides, what is stopping Bill Gates from walking into the nearest hardware store and buying everything in it? Nothing but common sense. Would that even put a chink in his assets? No. Would he still be making millions a month? Yes. Would there be social and political consequences if he did as such with every mom-and-pop hardware store in Seatle? Yes. Could he then run a side Hardware Store business? Yes. In a fantasy setting is it up to the GM to have the villagers lynch him? Yes.

So those caps can both be explicit and implicit in the setting.

[Mad Hatter]

On another note, wouldn't difficult and challenging tests to a characters assets make them go down? It's not like a muscle, it doesn't grow with use unless you are using it to invest in something.

[eruditus]

yeah, I did want to mention that I had it be a Attribute because it would not behave like stats and its derived from several sources. Just as you would not spend artha to effect rolls, you also would not raise them with use (like Mortal Wounds and Hesitation). It is only really in the area because sine its afected by multiple things you would need a central point to have it all together.

[NiallNai]

I just realized that my comment on Taxing resources is just like the comment Abzu made before me. Odd thing is that I didn't realize it since I didn't read Abzu's comment at the time.

Sorry if I sounded redundant.

[luke]

Actually, I don't want it to be a Stat, Attribute or Skill. It is non intrinsically tied to a character's mental composition, physical ability or aptitudinal acuity. Nor is it tied to learned experience.

It is something quite apart from all those things, though those elements can play on it (for good or ill). We all know many droolingly inept people who are quite wealthy, and many keen folk who are just morons with money. (US Grant, and Thomas Jefferson were fine examples of this latter category).

I think it would function quite fine as a separate shade/exponent listed under the Resources section of the Character Sheet.

Nor do I think it would be any easier to abuse than a Research skill or even Sorcery. In Research, it doesn't matter how good you are at it: If the information isn't in the Library, you aren't going to find what you're looking for.

[luke]

Ok let's do a little Resources/Assets/Wealth round up.

First off, this mechanic has been done before in many other games. Let's take the precedent and agree to come up with a better solution. I am shooting for (in all my mechanics) something that makes sense, is flexible, and feels right when invoked at the table, requires a bit of thought or at least a risk.

Point 1: The R/A/W should be rated with shade/exponent.

Point 2: R/A/W rating should be determined thusly: 10 rps spent in burning gets one exponent level.

Point 2b: Total the cost of any Affiliations, property and/or Reputation bought for the character in burning, divide by 10. This adds to R/A/W

Thus a character may invest in their assets, purchase gear, buy contacts, affiliations and a reputation with resources.

Standard of Living should be a R/A/W test in game and not necessarily determined by starting R/A/W

Point 3: R/A/W should obey all the rules for testing skills except advancement. (Personally, I think artha should be allowed, but I am willing to take a vote on this one.)

Point 4: Failed R/A/W tests cause the ability to be Taxed (just as Forte in spellcasting), temporarily reducing your R/A/W. Dice are recovered after what? 1 month?

Point 4b: If R/A/W is reduced to zero (or below) due to a failed test, the ability is PERMENANTELY reduced by 1 (if reduced to zero), or if it dips below zero, this amount is subtracted from the ability.

Point 4c: Failed R/A/W tests don't necessarily mean you don't get what you are asking for-- it just costs you a lot more. Of course, in some cases there must be outright failure. Thoughts?

Ok, did I miss anything? Now we need to come up with a list of obstacles/tests for the ability.

I already like it, though. I can see situations where a characters are soliciting a group of nobles to pool their resources in order to raise an army (helping rules are a must). And I can see a poor peasant going completely broke trying to buy a sword.

[NiallNai]

That sounds about right, but I still think that starting R/W/A should be affected by Setting, at least your Born To. Peasants are always going to have less resources...but the argument can be made that there are plenty of nobility that only have their name and a crumbling estate.

Or Obs can be affected by social status. Nobles having easier access to some items.

Another thing, the Helping Out rules could still be used. Such as a party of character pooling their resources to make a large purchase.

[luke]

I've got to disagree with you on starting setting or Born LP limiting Resources. Since LPs give starting characters varying amounts of RPs, then by default Noble Born characters are going to have more of an opportunity for greater wealth than their Peasant Born brothers.

But a peasant who goes on to become a Banker is going to have much more resources than his noble brethren. It was an uncommon occurance, but it did happen...

As far as different classes having different obstacles... I don't know, that's up to the GM, but it doesn't sit right with me. Let's come up with some basic obstacles first and then see where we have to apply an inherent penalty or if one is needed at all. I suspect it won't be necessary.

[Kublai]

Point 4c: Failed R/A/W tests don't necessarily mean you don't get what you are asking for-- it just costs you a lot more. Of course, in some cases there must be outright failure. Thoughts?

Costs more? What does cost matter to this new mechanic? Since you are replacing coins with an "Attribute," how is cost represented? If I was a butcher and I want a pig, I roll my Resources Test instead of subtracting an amount of coins from my character sheet. If I fail and still get the pig, so what if it costs more?

What becomes of the Haggling skill?

[luke]

as I stated above, if you fail the roll your Resources drop. Just as if you failed a Forte test for Tax. Except resources recover over a much longer period.

Subtracting coins can't represent the butcher borrowing money from his cousin, or begging a favor from the farmer, or taking out a loan from the moneylender. So now the butcher is broke (his Resources have temporarily dropped) and he can't pay his rent...

Certainly all those methods could be roleplayed out, but what I am trying to get at is that they rarely are and they are even more rarely interesting. I think this mechanic would smooth this all over.

But, in a month or so, he's sold that pig, made some cash, paid his debts, and is back where he started.

[Mad Hatter]

Hmm... OK, from a game abuse standpoint, why should I spend resources on any equipment at all? Just dump the lot into R/A/W and buy the stuff after I start play. Then I get all of my equipment, and a higher R/A/W score to start.

[Kublai]

You do realize such a mechanic would ruin my campaign?

What will my merchant dwarf player do with all of his screen-time if not count coins and haggle for discounts? :roll:

[luke]

Hmm... OK, from a game abuse standpoint, why should I spend resources on any equipment at all? Just dump the lot into R/A/W and buy the stuff after I start play. Then I get all of my equipment, and a higher R/A/W score to start.

Ah yes, the naked millionaire syndrome.
Um, what's to stop a PC from doing that now? You can always convert your resources into piles of coin and start the game like that.

I've yet to see this happen. Why? I think because it rarely fits in anyone's legitimate character concept to be a naked millionaire. And because it is ridiculously easy to deflect as a GM; just because you have money doesn't mean you are going to be able to get what you want.

The GM can still control the market. As always, the GM dictates obstacles.
But this is also why i asked for obstacle suggestions.

My first offering:
Arms Ob 3
Warhorse Ob 4
Plated Mail Ob 4
Carts Ob 3

thoughts?
This makes buying these items during character burning more economical (it's 30 rps just to get R/A/W of B3!). But R/A/W will be more versatile in the long term.


You do realize such a mechanic would ruin my campaign?

What will my merchant dwarf player do with all of his screen-time if not count coins and haggle for discounts?

In all seriousness, wouldn't this actually add to your campaign? Wouldn't your merchant dwarf now have something to work with? Something that actually represents his skills, contacts and experience?

Regarding Haggling: As I said above, R/A/W would obey all the rules for skills, including FoRKs.

And now that I think about it, I think R/A/W SHOULD advance like a skill. You don't actually increase your wealth or assets or resources by hoarding piles of coin and sitting on it. You increase your material might by spending, acquiring, trading and building.

[Kublai]

Regarding Haggling: As I said above, R/A/W would obey all the rules for skills, including FoRKs.

But how do they work together? How does haggling effect the Resource test?

BTW, the acronym RAW is right out. It's almost as bad as Gang Varz. BITs works, RAW doesn't. :P

[luke]

Haggling is a FoRK for your Resources.

Haggling could, of course, still be used in specific roleplaying situations.

Resources is meant to be used for lifestyle and business. And also as a general abstraction for wealth management in game.

Conditions would have to give tests to Resources as well.
Getting promoted might be an Ob 5 test.
Getting a load of money might be an Ob 4 test.
These would be tests like Grief and Steel.

[Kublai]

Haggling could, of course, still be used in specific roleplaying situations.

If specific instances do come up, then I'll need to know how many coins I have, right? Does that mean I'll have both coins and Resources on my character sheet?

And what happens when a character kills the bad guy and takes his stuff? Does the GM just give him a +1 to his Resources? "Ok! congratulations! you kill off the evil knight and the spoils are yours! Everybody adds +1 to their Resources."

How would loot from an bandit compare to that of a camp of several orcs? The difference is small compared to the Exponent list as is, but to a peasant it would mean a great deal.

Such loot wouldn't bump the Resource exponent permanently, would it?

Does all material wealth get converted into a Resource number?

What if a Villager with a Resource of 2 open-ends his dice in order to get that sword he always wanted. If he fails, he loses a point or two of resources to show how he overspent himself and borrowed money, etc. But, if he succeeds, then such borrowing and overspending means nothing, really, because he won't have to pay back anyone (in technical terms, he has not lost a point of Resources.)

So many questions...

[luke]

loot would equal a test toward advancing resources.

loot from different camps could have a higher obstacle, thus orc loot (ob 2 Res) would mean little to a wealthy knight, but a lot more to a poor peasant. whereas looting a knight's demesne would be an Ob 4 test for everyone's resources.

looting isn't a great example, though. I don't think I have had players "search bodies for material gain" in years. Most instances of looting are pretty straightforward in our games, either the players are looking for something specific, like an ivory crossbow, or the situation is fairly obvious, like having an army loot a castle, where the players would get some loot as well and test toward their Resources. Of course, certain circumstances might just raise Resources outright. Like capturing intact a wizard's library or a slaver's treasury.

spending artha is supposed to represent something extraordinary or lucky happening. why couldn't the peasant have found the sword of his dreams for cheap at an antique shop? or perhaps the antiquer decided to go soft on him after hearing his sob story of revenge and betrayal? (depends on what he FoRKs into the test!).

i think all of this is easily handled using our obstacle and advancement system.

[Kublai]

loot would equal a test toward advancing resources.

So such spoils would not help out our peasant in the short run. Even though he might've doubled his resources for the month from the bandit's loot, it would only count as a test towards advancement and not give him any immediate benefit?

What about a bonus on his next test or something to reflect this?

Or does the advancement system mean his is squirreling all his gains away under the bed or in a bank, not to be used until he has a sufficient amount to let him step up into a higher class?

[luke]

it's situational, isn't it?

what if that it is the test that causes his exponent to advance? then he's hit the jackpot! But if it's just regular old loot that he has to spend all of his time selling off, and ends up just getting by (the case for many a soldier of fortune), then he's in the same boat he was before he started out, but perhaps a little wiser and a little better positioned for next time.

Of course, their could be Resources "magic items" that temporarily add dice. Like a lost crown or ancient mantle. +2D to all Resources test while it is in your possession. Now THAT would be a sought after item. It wouldn't need to be magical, just its reputation alone would improve your lot.

[foxandwarlock]

Let me blow the dust off this thread and ask if anyone has fooled around or made improvements to this idea?

Our group is currently wrestling with Luke's point about not wanting to track coinage but how to resolve changes in gear or acquiring things that the PC's want or need.

[Kublai]

Since this post, Luke has written up formal resource rules for playtesting. I am using them in my Burning Summer campaign. There are still some wrinkles but they are very satisfying! :D You should ask him to send them to you as they need more playtesting!

[Thor Olavsrud]

Yeah, as Kublai noted, we've been giving it quite a workout. The Bishop/Poisoner and the Smuggler are very wealthy, and are throwing it around left and right. I feel like I'm playing with two Counts of Monte Cristo. :P

I, on the other hand, am playing a Sorcerer, so I'm poor as dirt since I spent most of my RPs on spells. Good thing my brothers (the bishop and the smuggler) love me. They're spending a fortune to have a chain shirt made for me after an assassin with a poisoned crossbow bolt took me down last night. Thank god sorcerers are tough! :twisted:

[Kublai]

Thor brings up a good point. Starting Resources are determined by adding up all the points spent on non-gear resources and dividing by 10. There were some questions that I wan't sure how to answer:

1) Do contacts bought with bonus Association points count? If I spent 20 pts on a Noble Affiliation and get 10 free pts of contacts, does that count as 30 pts total?

2) Why are sorcerers dirt poor? It seems that sorcerers get the shaft, as they mainly spend most of their points on spells and facets which, as I understand, don't count towards the resource total. So Thor's PC, who totalled something like 70 or more resource pts during burning, ended up with a Resources of 2, which is living hand-to-mouth. Perhaps, sorcererous lifepaths should grant more resources than they do considering this new Attribute?

[luke]

No way. I think Thor's character's dilemna is perfect. He's a highly skilled sorcerer. So immersed is he in his arts that he requires the kindness of others to support him.

It gives the character motivation!

Also, you fail to mention that Thor could have, if he so chose, altered his character concept slightly and not taken his complement of summoning spells. This, I'm sure, would have freed up enough resource point for him to be able to live on his own. But, as it stands now, he's too dedicated to his art to be concerned with money.

As for the factoring of the starting Resources, I'm not 100% on it yet. But I am certain that Affiliations count once -- you don't get the bonus points on top of every Affiliation.

-L

[Verrain]

Re: question 2, many games make magical research to be quite expensive. It requires ancient tomes and rare components and none of that comes cheap. If a Sorcerer throws anything he's got into his spells then it doesn't surprise me that there isn't much left over.

[Kublai]

Well, what do you think about taking the total Resource points earned from lifepaths and dividing by a higher number like 15 or even 20?

[Thor Olavsrud]

Well, what do you think about taking the total Resource points earned from lifepaths and dividing by a higher number like 15 or even 20?

In that case, I would have started with a Resources attribute of 5 (assuming division by 20). I started with 105 RPs!

Anyway, I guess I have to agree with Luke. The Summoning spells really put me over the top. I could have put the RPs I spent on those toward laboratories and a Sustainer Matrix (which I assume would have contributed toward the Resources attribute?).

Also, I think the low Resources stat is sort of fitting. The character is utterly focused on his pride and revenge. Sure, he spent 8 years as a Court Sorcerer in a foreign empire, but most of those resources went toward the dark, forbidden lore he brought back with him.

And from a totally Munchkin point of view, he doesn't really need high resources. Afterall, he's so indispensible to his family's power base that they pretty much have to cover anything he needs. And when they won't cover something...well, that's what his Persuasion spell is for. :twisted:

[Grong]

Maybe you should do something like a suggested starter kit for each setting................just a thought.


The Wheel burns!!!

[foxandwarlock]

So should we look for the Resource rules in the Annual? Having never seen one I'm not sure what to expect out of it.

[eruditus]

[quote="Grong"]Maybe you should do something like a suggested starter kit for each setting................just a thought.
[quote]

This was something I liked about the Warhammer Fantasy RPG was that each profession had a set of tools and assumptions. The profesison was less about 'you get X skills and stats' and more about your place in society.

Resource points are a great start but tend to be a little too abstract. I would love to see one or two items listed with a lifepath. You could even qualify it with quality and ownership (ie. borrowing, renting, owned). Then in the resource costs you could develop an upgrade scheme.

Hmmm... I'm digging this. Then a 1 point trait could be disowned or disavowed where the PC gets nothing for his troubles. Other outcast lifepaths could include this to show their incarceration or being otherwise stripped of their possessions.

[Grong]

Nice hteory it sound really good with what yuo got going but i would like to add some thing. For nobles why don't you have like a certain amount of land they start with-showing they're inheritance ECT.

NOTE: I was thinking about this too. Why don't noble have like favors they can call in ECt like in the Wheelo of Time Roleplaying game. Just a thought...........


The Wheel burns!!!

[luke]

Hi Grong/Eru,

The reason that nobles don't start with land in BW is because most nobles in the period that BW represents didn't have any land resources. Most nobles were dependent on other nobles for their livelihood.

-L

[DarkeTwilight]

I'm just curious. But from the sounds of your Resources it also inclued reputation and such. Wouldnt you think Thors character, being so powerful in his collection of spells and from what I gather history in the courts, Be somewhat viewed in awe and fear? I know I for one hear rumors of some Sorcerer whos tossing spells around am gonna be more than happy to make the exception and give him a discount or some leeway. Granted a sorcerer still needs to abide the law but knowing that he has the power to bring me and my establishment to the ground is enough to give him that healthy dose of respect that would keep most out of poverty levels. Simply a thought since I recalled resources having to do with such influences and such.

Also while I do love the old fassion style coin dependent games, wich I might add are plenty easy to make gritty and harsh for the players. I also do enjoy resource style games. My first encounter was with the D20 Modern gaming system wich was masterfully done to give even the poor a chance at some minor luxuries and could make even the wealthiest dependent on thier friends for some fast food,

[luke]

You make a valid point about said Sorcerer. However, there is a mechanic that can answer this question.

If Thor had paid for a Reputation for his character, then the scenario you describe is quite possible -- and, in fact, Reputations factor into Resources.

However, if Thor didn't (and I suspect he didn't), he's just some old quack you've never heard of. I think it in Thor and Phredd's setting every major house has a Sorcerer. So you've got a situation where there are a handful of sorcerers running around and hundreds of guys pretending to be sorcerers.

I think it's all going to work fine.
-L

[DarkeTwilight]

I hadnt really considered that. I mean of course I knew about the reputation availablity but for some reason in my mind I was thinking the game had been going onfor some time. And reputaion isnt something you really purchas once its started but more on the lines earn. But in any case I cant wait to see the more defined and finalized rules if they ever come out.

[Thor Olavsrud]

I hadnt really considered that. I mean of course I knew about the reputation availablity but for some reason in my mind I was thinking the game had been going onfor some time. And reputaion isnt something you really purchas once its started but more on the lines earn. But in any case I cant wait to see the more defined and finalized rules if they ever come out.

Nah. We've only had about 5 sessions so far. My character doesn't have much of a reputation to speak of because he was away in a foreign land learning dark and forbidden arts for many years. He's only now returned. However, I think I may garner a reputation very shortly, as I turn to those dark and forbidden arts (summoning) to deal a crushing blow to my former master (and the sorcerer for our rival house).

See, I may not have much of a reputation, but apparently he took exception to my return and tried to have me assassinated. Now he's going to pay. :evil:

Anyway, to get back on topic, the resources system works for me, at least in this setting. If I need something, I demand it from my family. If that doesn't work, I have my Persuasion spell, which is absolutely devastating. Our House's major domo gave tried to give me a hard time when I told him he needed to hire a number of apprentices for me. But suddenly, doing my will is his most pressing priority.

More recently, I nearly crushed the mind of the city's Cardinal when I "suggested" he give us access to church records. A 12-success Persuasion spell is no laughing matter. :lol:

Really, it makes sense. The character has been fanatically focused on increasing his dark arts, not his fortune. If I wanted to play a really wealthy (and incredibly effective in a political game) sorcerer, I could easily have done it by buying only Eldritch Shield, The Sense, and Persuasion. I could have spent the rest on laboratories, houses, etc. In fact, I would have done something just like that if this were envisioned as a long-term game and I had time to grow into my sorcery. But from the outset we decided this game would fit into about 12 sessions, so, like any real sorcerer, I went straight for the power. :P

[Kublai]

See, I may not have much of a reputation, but apparently he took exception to my return and tried to have me assassinated. Now he's going to pay. :evil:

Off topic - That's what you get for banging his daughter!!

[Thor Olavsrud]

Off topic - That's what you get for banging his daughter!!

To be more exact, that's WHY I banged his daughter. :P

[DarkeTwilight]

Thor, If you ask me at the rate things sound to be going you'll have plenty of a reputation. Certainly with your persuasion spell. Grnted the one directly influenced may not notice or realize the affect. However those who know him/her certainly will. And once people begin putting two and two together you'd likely be one feared simply off of that. Almost makes me wonna try a sorcerer. :twisted: But first i need to find me a group. :cry:

[luke]

::wipes sweat from forehead::

I just finished the second draft of the Resources chapter. Thor's wizard could get +2D to his Resources if he were publicly granted a rank or title by his house. In other words, if he were appointed "High Mage of the Stilettos" or something.

His character can also borrow cash, find treasure or trade goods to sell, take out a loan from a merchantile house and go into debt!

All usin' the new rules.

::does a little dance::

Now on to the Duel of Wits!
-L

[Thor Olavsrud]

Thor, If you ask me at the rate things sound to be going you'll have plenty of a reputation. Certainly with your persuasion spell. Grnted the one directly influenced may not notice or realize the affect. However those who know him/her certainly will. And once people begin putting two and two together you'd likely be one feared simply off of that. Almost makes me wonna try a sorcerer. :twisted: But first i need to find me a group. :cry:

One of his beliefs is: It is better to be feared than loved. :twisted:

[mike_ravenwood]

Just thought I'd chime in real quick. My players LOVE tracking their wealth by X number of gold coins, dollars, credits what have you. In every game that has an abstract monetary system we drop it and convert it to something quantifyable. This is not to say I disagree with more abstract aproach, it's just that in real life after getting paided at work I think by bank account has gone up by X dollars, not my Resources has increased in Exponent. Also it's hard for player's to get interested in their flithy lucre when it's abstact. The Dragon's pile he sleeps on has more punch when it's a number followed by lots of zeroes. It is then simple things in life.

[phredd]

Just thought I'd chime in real quick. My players LOVE tracking their wealth by X number of gold coins, dollars, credits what have you. In every game that has an abstract monetary system we drop it and convert it to something quantifyable. This is not to say I disagree with more abstract aproach, it's just that in real life after getting paided at work I think by bank account has gone up by X dollars, not my Resources has increased in Exponent. Also it's hard for player's to get interested in their flithy lucre when it's abstact. The Dragon's pile he sleeps on has more punch when it's a number followed by lots of zeroes. It is then simple things in life.

Huh. As someone who is bored to tears by coin counting and treasure hunting, I love resources. It allows characters to have wealth and to have the infrastructure that the wealthy get from that wealth without a lot of boring number crunching. It makes having a wealthy character worth playing, since stupid bean counting is eliminated. And I think it enhances drama as well.

[Thor Olavsrud]

I understand where you're coming from Mike, but I'm with phredd. The Resources system rocks. I suggest at least giving it a whirl when it's released. You might surprise yourself. I think it actually makes trying to buy stuff interesting a dramatic, whereas it used to bore me to tears.

[mike_ravenwood]

How much time do usually spend dealing with "bean counting"? I'm talking about 5 min here or there.

eg
Me: "You find 500 gold coins."
Player 1: " Sweet, add that to 30 we had, and on with the adventure"
Player 2: "Mike, before we go on, I just want to say your the best GM every. three cheers for Mike!"
Players : "Hip Hip Horray, Hip Hip Horray, Hip Hip Horray!!!!!"

But I digress..... : )

[phredd]

How much time do usually spend dealing with "bean counting"? I'm talking about 5 min here or there.

eg
Me: "You find 500 gold coins."
Player 1: " Sweet, add that to 30 we had, and on with the adventure"
Player 2: "Mike, before we go on, I just want to say your the best GM every. three cheers for Mike!"
Players : "Hip Hip Horray, Hip Hip Horray, Hip Hip Horray!!!!!"

But I digress..... : )

In a Burning Wheel game that's currently on hiatus, I'd say that it used to suck a good 10 minutes of time from a session and it's effect was magnified by how annoyed I was that the GM was making me deal with it at all.

Definitely made the game less fun. Significantly less fun.

[Thor Olavsrud]

How much time do usually spend dealing with "bean counting"? I'm talking about 5 min here or there.


For me, adding the coins is not the problem. It's spending them. I find shopping trips a dull and tedious affair. With the Resources test to buy stuff, it can become very interesting and dramatic. That's what I like.

Also, the mechanic says something about the priorities of the game. Games in which you count all your coins (and in which having that money allows you to get loot that makkes you far more mechanically effective), often encourage a kill everyone and loot the dead mentality. That doesn't mean all groups will play that way, but it does color everything.

Finally, if your players DO take a Dragon's horde, you don't have to just make that a Test for the advancement of the Resources attribute. Just tell them that their exponents go up by 1 or 2 points instead (or more depending on how generous you want to be).

If you find that you really don't like it, that's cool. But you really should at least give it a shot. In my experience, it works really well. Turning wealth into a testable mechanic has a really interesting effect on play because, as with all other skills, players that have a good Resources score start looking for ways to use that score to solve their problems. You start getting all sorts of bribes, "gifts" to influential folks, contact with sketchy folk as they try to buy charts of trade routes, and so on.

Yeah, you can do that with a stack of coins and just play it out. But there's something special that happens when a player looks at his character sheet and realizes, "hey, I can now be really mechanically effective in this way." It really adds an interesting new dimension to play.

[Kublai]

While being pauper and counting your last few coins can certainly be fun (I find it can make for some good roleplaying), the real problem lies when your character becomes fantastically wealthy and a great lord. This occurred in our BW game and I think it's when generated Luke's need for a Resources attribute. Counting millions of coins and appraising a hoard of items lost its appeal even before we began.

[Blackberry]

I definitely think that Artha should be allowed to effect Resources tests. Artha represents how much the universe/luck/karma/scriptwriter intercedes on your behalf, and if you're looking for some particular thing, you might just find the only one in town or find the one good deal in that shop way down in the bowels of the city or happen to stumble onto the one farmhouse for miles that just happens to have kept their grandparents' holy grail around for laughs...

Also, can I get the playtest rules? :)

[Thor Olavsrud]

I definitely think that Artha should be allowed to effect Resources tests. Artha represents how much the universe/luck/karma/scriptwriter intercedes on your behalf, and if you're looking for some particular thing, you might just find the only one in town or find the one good deal in that shop way down in the bowels of the city or happen to stumble onto the one farmhouse for miles that just happens to have kept their grandparents' holy grail around for laughs...


Yup. You can use Artha on Resources tests. Never fear. 8)

[skandall]

Here's my take on Resources:

Characters have a Resources Attribute ranked by shade and exponent.

Items have a Purchase Ob.

If the Purchase Ob is less than Resources, the character can easily afford it without stretching their finances and thus no roll is required.

If the POb is equal or higher, then a Resources roll is required.

Failure means that you can't afford the item at the time and thus don't get it, your Resources isn't changed.

Success means that you were able to pull the money together and make the purchase. Your Resources is reduced depending on how expensive the item was (i.e., the difference between the POb and your Resources). Say 1-3 is -1, 4-6 is -2, and 7+ is -3.

Resources can never be less than 0.

Purchase Ob is modified by availability and possibly the results of a Haggle test against the seller. You could even FoRK your Haggle skill into your Resources for the purchase.

When a character finds treasure (money, items, or both) the GM rates that treasure from 1 to 10. That rating equates to dice a player can use with their Resources as additional dice to help make an expensive purchase OR the dice can be put towards advancement on a 1 for 1 basis (e.g., 3 dice would be counted as a test of Ob 3). Dice used to boost Resources absorb the reduction first (e.g., if I purchased an item that would cause me to loose 3 Resource and in that roll I used 2 extra dice, those 2 dice would absorb the first two points of reduction leaving my Resources down only 1).