[Burning Seasons] Start here...

[kaomera]

The cradle of Man; the center of civilization, learning, and Religion; the center of the Known World (or at least the World Known to Man) is the cluster of kingdoms surrounding the Great Sea. Here the Gods made Man, and here he has thrived. Here the knights of the Ten True Kings rule. Here the Gifted have learned to speak the Words of Sorcery. Here are the great cathedrals of The Church, the arbiter and upholder of all that is Holy, stand in their majesty and grandeur. And it is from here all distances are measured (at least as Men measure such things).

To the West the Great Sea pours into Ocean; and far, far across these storm-tossed waves lie the Lands of The Gods. Man is not fit for the West.

To the South lies a land of untamed and unknowable savagery, home to all manner of Monster, devoid of Civilization or any of the things that Civilization needs. The South is not fit for Man.

To the East the sun blasts dusty wastes and the ice scours desolate tundra. The East is the forsaken land of the Orcs, and only Man is fit to hold them at bay.

To the North...

In ages past the Northlands, across the Icy Sea from the northernmost of the Ten True, was carpeted with untamed forest, from which rose the jagged, snow-capped teeth of the great northern mountains. Barbarians made their homes here. They built crude cities at the mouths of the rivers of the North, living off the bounty of the Icy Sea. They where ever wary of the woodland depths, for it was said that within them lay the citadels of the Elven Kings, which shrank from the gaze of any Man, only to reappear where they where not expected. Likewise, the riches of the mountains where held as too hazardous to contemplate risking the wrath of the covetous Dwarves. Great Wolves prowled the woods and shorelines, Trolls and Great Spiders lurked in the dark and lonesome places. In short, it was a very common place, devoid of the greatness of the Ten True, but having a wild beauty of it's own.

Then the Orcs came. They came in the hundreds, and in the hundreds of hundreds. The Ten True rallied their forces and ceased their hostility twords one-another long enough to hold off the Horde, but in the North there was no Man great enough to oppose these foul beasts. They burned the woods, they assailed the mountain fortresses, they enslaved Man and Wolf, Spider and Troll. Denied any serious opposition, they fell in their fury upon themselves. The Church records a dozen dozen years of such savagery (unenlightened local histories say three). Finally, the sons of the Ten True would have no more of the Orc's foul deeds, and they sailed against the Horde in the North. Knights thundered across the smoking ruins of the Northern forests, smashing the Orcs and their slaves wherever they found them. Finally, the year after the first landings, King Afschuwelijk lead the combined might of Man's forces in the North against the reformed remains of the Horde in the North. The great King personally slew half of the greatest of the Orcs, and his Knights the other half. At that, the Horde broke and fled. The King's Knights turned to shout the news of their victory, but the King spied a Circle of Orc Summoners, conjuring Daemons most foul to exact their revenge! Immediately he spurred on his great steed, flying into their midst before any other even spied the danger! Instantly his sword had swung it's arc, and Orc and Daemon fell! But, too powerful where these forces for the King to withstand alone, and he fell wounded and dying beneath the last and greatest of the Daemons. By the time his Knights had returned, found him, and learned of his heroism, a lowly and wretched Goblin had stolen his Crown and fled East.

That was perhaps hundreds of years ago. The descendants of King Afschuwelijk and his Knights rule over the Barbarian peoples they saved so long ago. The Church is building Cathedrals in key cities to assist it's work in showing the local peoples the true names of their Gods. To the West lie the last remains of the great forests and therein live the Elves. To the South lies the Icy Sea, the mountain homes of the Dwarves towering above it's cold waves. To the North lies the worst of the destruction wrought by the Orcs, inhabited by the last rogue Barbarian Clans and worse. And somewhere to the East the Orcs plot their return, with the trophy of King Afschuwelijk's Crown as a rallying point.

It is now seven days after the Feast of Birthing, thirteen days before the Feast of High Summer. It is the Season of the Young; new endeavors begun before High Summer and the start of the Season of Merchants are blessed, but those journeys planned but delayed are under an ill omen! The Feast of Birthing is a day of beginnings. Babies are officially named and new Mothers brought into Womanhood. Apprentices are promoted to Journeyman. Squires are Knighted. So, all across the Northern Kingdom young Men rush to leave home for the first time, ahead of the arrival of the Solstice. They hope to enjoy the hospitality of the Feast of High Summer in a new hall, and to take advantage of the freedom from tax and toll during the Season of Merchants. But more importantly, they hope that their journeys will lead them to Great Things.

OK, hope that does something for ya! It's got lots of Capitalized Words, so it must be great, right? :P First four to chime in get spots. We're going to be looking at a four LP maximum, but I (personally) think that a bunch of young(er) kids would be kinda cool. We start with Concepts. Concepts only, please. Once we have those, we can start doing BITs + Rs. I think it would be best if we did those one at a time, to give others a chance to chime in with suggestions, or to riff off of what you've got.

I can post pretty much every day, barring most Tuesdays. If you're going to have a problem checking in at least every day or two, you might want to give this a pass...

Remember: Until we actually start play (which will be a new thread), I'm just another player. I can't demand you do anything with your character, so take anything I say as a suggestion only. Likewise, if you want to muscle in and make up setting stuff, please do! If you'd like anything clarified or expanded upon (and you don't want to do it yourself), ask; I will probably hold off a bit on responding to that sort of thing tho - maybe someone else has something they'd like to add, eh?

[Tobias]

Well, given that lovely setup, I'll chime in.

I don't have my copy of the rules yet - but I'm expecting it hand-delivered next week (your books travel interesting paths, Luke).

Big thing in your story seems the crown - so I'll riff off of that with a young scrapper kid, apprenticed to the local smith, with both a taste for wealth and a flair for smithing pretties.

[Melmoth]

Usually I can check the forum everyday but next week I'll off, from 19th to 24th, because of work. It's something exceptional that may happen once or twice a year. If this is a problem I'll pass and wait for another chance. If not, then...

I'd like to play a young barbarian from the northern regions stroke by wanderlust and wanting to experience the heart of "civilization". I was thinking on Fafhrd from Fritz Leiber's stories.

[kaomera]

OK, that's two. I'll post some thought-fodder once I get home from work.

Tobias ~ "yay!" to getting the books, they are great!

Melmoth ~ I understand work comes first, trust me. If we're not quite finished with burning characters before you leave, I'll just have you post a "best guess" before you leave, then we can polish off details when you get back. But I think we should be pretty well wrapped up by then, so perhaps your character will not meet the rest immediately.

Well, I have to go make cakes, now...

[Verrain]

I'm up for it. Sounds cool.

[Leningrad]

I want to play some kind of diplomat / sorceror. Lots of duelling of wits and calling on circles and what have you.

Any thoughts on where to begin?

[kaomera]

Tobias: I like that. Is he a peasant or free commoner (or possibly a lower-class Noble)? What's his relationship (or Relationship) with his (former?) master? And is his "flair for smithing pretties" a particular talent (or Talent?) he has, or is it something that he likes to / would prefer to do while he's doing other work? (I think an apprentice Smith would mostly be pumping the bellows all day...)

As for the Great Crown of King Afschuwelijk ~ do you want to work that specifically into a Belief (or Instinct or whatever), or are you more just interested in Heroic Treasure-Hunting (tm) in general? I see the Crown as something pretty Epic, but that doesn't mean you can't steer us in that direction.

Melmoth: That's cool, also. I assume he's a Barbarian by Trait? So, start thinking about how these Civilized folks are going to treat him... Do they all mostly see him as a bumpkin of the lowest sort, or expect him to fly into a frothing, shield-biting psychotic frenzy at the drop of a hat? And will the character play up to these expectations, or against them?

Having a Barbarian PC probably means we're up North (well, the North of the Northern Kingdom...). The Sea is to the South, and with it trade / larger cities. Likewise there are probably some larger trade centers at the, well, center of the Kingdom. So the North would seem to be more of a frontier area. Given that (and this question is for all of you) are you headed South twords more highly civilized areas and bigger cities, or out into the wildlands?

Verrain: Great. Any ideas on a character concept?

Leningrad: OK, are you talking “diplomat” as a profession (and then, working for whom?), or just “diplomatic” as in socially-oriented? Do you need to play a full-fledged Sorcerer, or is a younger apprentice like the other two ok?

Start thinking about what it means to be a Sorcerer; how do the peasants see the character? Terrified and superstitious? How about free commoners (craftsmen, merchants, and the like)? Do they see Sorcery as just another (perhaps overpaid / over-respected) profession? Nobles? As useful but dangerous tools? How about The Church?

Also: was he “born Gifted”, or was his Gift discovered later? What was his apprenticeship like? Is that the only world he's ever really known, or does he have other life-experiences to build upon? This is especially important with respect to Circles.

Go ahead and start thinking about Lifepaths, as well as BITs and Relationships. I'd like to go fairly slowly at this point. Don't just post everything all at once, and try to stay flexible (but if something is really important to you and you would rather not compromise on it, let us know). That way you can feed off of each others' ideas. A good way to earn lots of Artha is to give me Beliefs and Instincts that I can challenge across several characters at once. And please feel free to chime in with suggestions for your fellow players.

At this point I would be most likely to start off with Tobias' character leaving the Smith he's been apprenticed to, headed somewhere... Before he gets far he will run into each of the other players. We could just weave stories around from there until you all end up together, but it might be nice (at least for me as a GM) if you started thinking about what common thread you share that will lead to that sooner rather than later.

[Tobias]

Ah f*ck. Wrote something, got a call, clicked some of the wrong buttons...

Let's try that again.

I see my guy as a free commoner with a talent for fine smithing. Working hard at the forge with the sooty appearance and muscles appropriate to it. Soon discovered that he's got a talent. Becomes the favored apprentice of his master, who doesn't go all 'love you like a father' but just works well with him. Some resentment from the other workers/apprentices, the occasional scuffle and blackballing. A youthly love lost due to the blackballing and the choice between girl and craft (nothing too dramatic, you know - just growing up).

Then the smithy goes kaput, either through death of the master (natural causes), bankruptcy, theft, whatever. I'm not looking for the big 'revenge' motif here. The world's wide open, what now?

So imagine a regular lifepath from born commoner to silversmith or something, toss in a lifepath of roughousing for flavor, and you've got the 'chosen career' path of my guy - but we'll stop one or 2 steps before the end.

My guy wants to be one of the best silver-/goldsmiths there is. He should have memories of bedtime stories of the crown and his mother's hair-band with the single golden-looking thread in it that she calls 'her crown'. He should be big, a bit bear-like

I'd prefer it if the characters were closely tied together, somehow, with some actual history. None of this 'running into each other in the woods thing'. This would allow closer alignment of the BITs.

I'm cool with being up north, btw, was assuming that already from the focus of the backstory.

One campaign option I thought was that the crown might have secretly been recovered, and is (under cover, chased by dark things) being returned to the south. Depending on the Epicness of the story, the characters could be central to this, or unwitting dummies at the fringe of things.

[Tobias]

Oh, and if the smith concept doesn't work, I just discovered the 'risen consort' lifepath in the slaver subsetting. What an awesome concept!

We take a soldier-woman, captured and broken-in, risen consort, freed and moving into the religious subsetting (as nun, vengeful fury, or scheming pain-filled hate-bitch).

Damn the book for not being in my hands yet!

Erm yeah. Or patience.

[kaomera]

OK, few quick notes now, more after work.

Ah f*ck. Wrote something, got a call, clicked some of the wrong buttons...

Hate when that happens...

I see my guy as a free commoner with a talent for fine smithing. Working hard at the forge with the sooty appearance and muscles appropriate to it. Soon discovered that he's got a talent. Becomes the favored apprentice of his master, who doesn't go all 'love you like a father' but just works well with him. Some resentment from the other workers/apprentices, the occasional scuffle and blackballing. A youthly love lost due to the blackballing and the choice between girl and craft (nothing too dramatic, you know - just growing up).

I assume "blackballing" in a strictly social sense (not professional) by the other apprentices. Would any other Master Smiths know about you / your talent and possibly be interested in getting you to come work for them? I'll admit - that's just a possibility for me to throw complications at you in-game, if you want we can say that with the bad-mouthing of you by the other former apprentices, no-one is really too hot to force you into a new job...

Then the smithy goes kaput, either through death of the master (natural causes), bankruptcy, theft, whatever. I'm not looking for the big 'revenge' motif here. The world's wide open, what now?

Figure out how the smithy goes kaput. Death of the master would be easiest on you, IMHO, but the other options give me some interesting story possibilities.

So imagine a regular lifepath from born commoner to silversmith or something, toss in a lifepath of roughousing for flavor, and you've got the 'chosen career' path of my guy - but we'll stop one or 2 steps before the end.

something like:
Village Born -> Kid -> Apprentice (21 years old)
or
City Born -> Apprentice (19 years old)?

My guy wants to be one of the best silver-/goldsmiths there is. He should have memories of bedtime stories of the crown and his mother's hair-band with the single golden-looking thread in it that she calls 'her crown'. He should be big, a bit bear-like

Good stuff, there.

I'd prefer it if the characters were closely tied together, somehow, with some actual history. None of this 'running into each other in the woods thing'. This would allow closer alignment of the BITs.

OK, we could pick up shortly after you all had met, but I thought it would be more fun to play it out. If you where all willing to burn characters that would naturally fall in together. I don't think that all growing up in the same place (which, given the concepts, seems unlikely anyway) would automatically get you BITs that would mesh. Relationships, yes; but I don't want to just have someone order you all off on a journey together.

We already have two characters that should fit together very well. The barbarian is looking to experience civilization... Well, the smithing in the Kingdom is a lot more advanced than where he comes from, but it would still be something he could understand. So, if your smithy kid is not going to be put off by the sight (and smell and accent and such) of the barbarian I think we have a ready-made excuse for you two to join up if you meet on the road. Give me two BITs that I can simultaneously, and I promise I will do my best to see to it that your characters become fast friends.

Or, like I said, we can just "write in" that whole process. Start with all four characters walking into wherever you're headed together, having become companionable along the road. Maybe I can help you find a goal that all four characters can buy into. Or you can just help each-other out with whatever you're doing out of friendship / "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours".

[Verrain]

The base character concept was this: a young man that from his earliest childhood wanted to become a mage. But of course he's a poor peasant. he can't even read, but he keeps hearing the stories of the mages spun by the fire and dreams.

Then one day a mage actually stops in his villiage and young boy approachs him saying that he's wanted to be a mage forever and would he take him away and teach him. The mage looks at him and shakes his head. "You do not have the Gift, child. I'm sorry."

So after a day or two abject misery, he rebounds and decides that if he can't be a mage, he'll be one of those types that mages always seek out to help them in their quests.

Basically he is a hunter type that wants to specialize in seeking out reagents that mages always seem to need for their spells and rituals. His long term goal is to pair up with a mage as a true adventuring companion.

If he meets the sorcerer's apprentice on the road, he will absolutely flip! Let's hope all the unabashed gushing doesn't scare him off. :)

[Melmoth]

Yes, the character will be Barbarian by trait not by taking any Black Barbarian lifepath.

Here a few more or less connected ideas:
I think that he is curious but sceptical about the southern ways, something that can make people see him as a little presumptuous. He always compares the northern with the southern ways (not aloud). He is not more uneducated than other farmers of the meridional regions though his lack of technical and formal knowledge is evident to everyone. He isn’t very talkative, especially since he found that his strong accent was the cause of a condescending smile in people’s faces. Also he resolves disputes the northern way, by force instead of oratory. Until now he hasn’t get into much trouble and the fights he’s found into were of little consequence for everyone involved.

He was born in a small village far in the north. His father was one of the hunters of the clan and he spent some years helping him in this task. After a couple of orcish raids into some villages, including his, he joined the local militia under the surveillance of southern Knights. There he was told stories of the wonders of the South that made his homeland pale in comparison. After a time serving as soldier and few skirmishes he left the cold wastes and ventured South in search of what his superiors in the militia told him: great cities, riches, luxury and the knowledge that supposedly makes them superior to the northern people.

Putting it into lifepaths would be something like this:

Born peasant -> Hunter -> Foot soldier -> Vagrant
This would make him 21 years old. If only three lifepaths are taken it will make him 17 and will set him about leaving his home.

Although he is headed to the great city centers of the Kingdom, at this moment I leave undefined how much to the South he has made. He can have met the Smith anywhere in the road or in a city/village where he has made some works to get him a little money, food and/or place to sleep.

I’ve been thinking about Believes but so far are in some kind of nebulous form and are related to northern lands and barbarians which probably won’t tie with other player’s BITs. At this moment I’ll leave it here and let me know what you think (everyone!)

[jmspencer]

Is there room for one more player for this?

[Leningrad]

I'm primarily building someone who will specialize in Duel of Wits. I want that to be the focus of the character. The sorceror bit was just added in to be a little bit of flash. I could take it or leave it. So far, though, I don't really see the character I'm putting together in my head fitting in with the rest of the group. I mean, I was seriously considering making him an advocate or magistrate or something. Should I abandon this path and look for something else?

[jmspencer]

So far, though, I don't really see the character I'm putting together in my head fitting in with the rest of the group. I mean, I was seriously considering making him an advocate or magistrate or something. Should I abandon this path and look for something else?

Well, I don't know if this helps with the whole "tying the group together" thing, but the character I had in mind when I chimed in earlier asking if there was room for one more was a Priest either coming from or headed into the Barbarian Lands (tm) as a missionary of sorts, possibly to oversee the building of a church in one of the more cthoroughly converted barbarian settlements.

(realizing, of course, that the GM hasn't said whether there WAS room for another or not, but figured I'd throw it out there)

[kaomera]

Is there room for one more player for this?

I'm sorry but I really want to keep this down to four players.

I'm primarily building someone who will specialize in Duel of Wits. I want that to be the focus of the character. The sorceror bit was just added in to be a little bit of flash. I could take it or leave it. So far, though, I don't really see the character I'm putting together in my head fitting in with the rest of the group. I mean, I was seriously considering making him an advocate or magistrate or something. Should I abandon this path and look for something else?

I'm not going to tell you to change concepts. If you need me to make a decision for you, I can, but I'd rather you play what you want. I will ask that you be a bit more careful in describing what you want, however. Knowing that you where steering twords an Advocate or Magistrate in the first place would have been nice, and likewise mentioning Sorcerer kind of brought that to the forefront.

How about if you play the character one Lifepath short of Advocate? He could then gain the skills and position through play. Advocate requires Student, which is easy enough to get. The Apprentice Sorcerer concept certainly seems like it would work with the group. You could go City Born -> Neophyte Sorcerer -> Student. Gifted is not a required Trait for a Neophyte, so you could go the "Failed Apprentice" route if you wish (or you could swap Neophyte for whatever other Lifepath you prefer). This would make the character 22 years old, with a very respectable Mental Pool of 9 and access to some good skills. Perception 3 / Will 6 is awesome for a "Social-Fu" type, although the more conservative 4/5 would be good too.

This character would still be young enough to fit in with the others, but you would have to come up with BITs that would involve him in the story / journey. At 22 he would probably be the oldest of the four, quite possibly the most mature and the "voice of reason". I can definitely see hooks for this character to both the Barbarian (he admires the "civilization" that you represent, you want to get him to solve problems with words instead of just his fists) and the Ranger / Mage-wanna-be. Perhaps he's on the road because he has run out of money for his schooling and he's looking for a patron? Or perhaps there just aren't any opportunities (or at least any he likes) in the North and he's headed South to the "big city"?

In any case, I think that "Guy who specializes in DoW" is actually a great concept, and fits into the group; but in both cases only because it's so vague it could go just about any which way...

[Leningrad]

I quite like the idea of playing a priest / missionary. Hmm, let me put some more thought into this. I'll read over the CB tomorrow. I have the day off.

[Leningrad]

In addition, I've fallen in love with the Ganymede lifepath. I'm starting to get a better feel for this character.

Expect a full size post soon.

[Leningrad]

Alright, I've put some thought into the character. I've decided, I think, on the lifepaths that I want. I've done away with any sorcery or faith trappings and just focused on making a character that is going to play the way I want him to. I'm hoping on putting together a verbal duelling machine; a character with a lot of dice and tricks to throw around in a Duel of Wits. This is a part of the rules that really excites me and it's something I'm looking forward to trying out.

Anyway, mechanically, I've chosen
City Born -> Student -> Ganymede (Lead To) Courtier

Which, for me, paints the picture of a bright young lad whose beauty attracted the attention of a powerful noble patron who trained him and introduced him into the court.

This puts together a character with an age of 27 (placing him as quite a bit older than the other characters, though I wasn't sure that being a youth was a prerequisite we'd decided on yet) and a fair spread of skills and some good and interesting traits.

Thoughts?

[Verrain]

Hmmm.

Three country bumpkins on their first trip to the big city and an openly gay courtier of the noble court.

Well if the GM can find a way to mix those together I'm game but honestly I don't see them meshing well.

[kaomera]

Thoughts?

I didn't make "youth" a prerequisite (or limit you to 3 LPs) because while I thought it would be fun to play, I'm just the GM. At the same time, we seemed to be leaning twords both “youth” and “journeying” type characters, but that's just my impression.

I would like to know what the other players think of this concept, and what (if anything) it will inspire for their characters. What have you got so far that would connect to this character, and what do you think you might have to change? Likewise, how could Leningrad nudge this concept along to make it fit in better with what you want to play?

I think it's about time we should see at least one Belief or Instinct for each character. That may make it a bit easier to start trying to fit this group together... I would especially like to see just what it is you want to do with this character in terms of the story.

Let me put the ranting hat on for just a second: I can easily see this game developing to revolve around the Ganymede / Courtier, with the other characters arriving in Court (by some suitable contrivance of fate) and doing legwork for his political dealings. I don't want to discard that idea out of hand, but I also don't want to end up there by default, or just because it was easiest. Given that, what would make this character leave the safety(?) & security(?) of the Court to head out into the less refined parts of the Kingdom?

[Leningrad]

I didn't make "youth" a prerequisite (or limit you to 3 LPs) because while I thought it would be fun to play, I'm just the GM. At the same time, we seemed to be leaning twords both “youth” and “journeying” type characters, but that's just my impression.


I'm actually kind of disappointed that he turned out so old. I was hoping for somewhere between 21 and 24 but that stupid 12 years in City Born really stings. I'd like you to cement a lifepath total for us to start at so that I can get a good grip on things. If it's 3, I'll drop courtier. If it's four, I want to keep playing around with the concept.


I would like to know what the other players think of this concept, and what (if anything) it will inspire for their characters. What have you got so far that would connect to this character, and what do you think you might have to change? Likewise, how could Leningrad nudge this concept along to make it fit in better with what you want to play?


I, too, would like some input from the others. I'm more than willing (and, in fact, it goes along with my feelings about the character so far) to play the older figure in the group. The voice of experience, albeit limited, as it were.

I think it's about time we should see at least one Belief or Instinct for each character. That may make it a bit easier to start trying to fit this group together... I would especially like to see just what it is you want to do with this character in terms of the story.

BIT's are crucial for designing your game, so I can understand why you'd want them. I've been putting some thought into mine, and I'll post one or two pretty quick.

Let me put the ranting hat on for just a second: I can easily see this game developing to revolve around the Ganymede / Courtier, with the other characters arriving in Court (by some suitable contrivance of fate) and doing legwork for his political dealings. I don't want to discard that idea out of hand, but I also don't want to end up there by default, or just because it was easiest. Given that, what would make this character leave the safety(?) & security(?) of the Court to head out into the less refined parts of the Kingdom?

I don't want to be the center of attention all the time, and I'd like us all to be able to contribute equally, but I am quite attached to the Ganymede lifepath (due mostly to the idea that I like the idea of my character having a mentor and because I'd like to explore portraying an open homosexual. If this is going to present a problem for anyone, I'll scrap the concept and start again, this is sort of a deal breaker for the character as I envision him.) The character, however, could have just as easily been ousted from the court as a result of his patron / lover dying. A dead mentor is just as good, if not better, a source of conflict and drama as a living one. I can just imagine the poor prettyboy caught out on the road, in the muck and rain, desperate to hunt down and punish the villains who murdered his love. Fun!

[Leningrad]

Hmmm.

Three country bumpkins on their first trip to the big city and an openly gay courtier of the noble court.

Well if the GM can find a way to mix those together I'm game but honestly I don't see them meshing well.

At first, neither did I, but if said courtier's lover was killed, he'd be desperate to find anyone who would help him find out who did it. Also, country bumpkins are notoriously easy to manipulate.

*grin*

[kaomera]

I'm actually kind of disappointed that he turned out so old. I was hoping for somewhere between 21 and 24 but that stupid 12 years in City Born really stings. I'd like you to cement a lifepath total for us to start at so that I can get a good grip on things. If it's 3, I'll drop courtier. If it's four, I want to keep playing around with the concept.

Again, the absolute limit on lifepaths is four. If you choose to go with three, do so because you think it would be more enjoyable to play (that goes for everyone). I'm sorry if I gave any other impression.

And if you really would rather play a slightly younger character, you could always just drop Courtier. That would make you 21. Courtier could then be the direction you where intending to go, and what you where trained for. But you seem kind of attached to it, and it's not a problem to keep it. I'm just trying to point out that there are lots of options here.

I actually like the murder angle. I can already see how I can tie this in to at least one other character (as things stand)... Once everyone gives me their opening BITs, I'll post a set of ideas on how I see the game progressing, and you can all give me feedback as to how you feel about them. Once we see which do and don't pass muster we can start to get cracking on the rest of your BITs, Relationships, skills, etc. If you have any ideas about how you want your character to burn up, chime in with 'em. I'm especially interested in if you envision any of your characters' skills or stats being especially notable. That way, no-one else will accidentally overshadow you (if they also want to be notable in that area {ie: it's deliberate}, then all bets are off...).

[Leningrad]

I'd like to do four lifepaths, because then I feel like I'll get a more well-rounded character. I'm thinking of dropping Courtier and replacing it with an Outcast Setting LP. Like Blackmailer or something. The character having been ousted from the Nobility, ended up near-consumed with his quest for revenge. I like that. Hmmm...

[Tobias]

I've got no problem with the Ganymede.

Where I earlier said that I didn't want the (rather standard) revenge ange-driven character, it might be interesting if ALL characters are revenge driven - kinda the central theme. All 4 of them are in some way hurt and inadequate to the task of revenge. Down on their luck, they sit in the stables of an inn, to poor to go inside and get anything more than the single bottle of ale they share between them. Lighting crashes, the bottle tumbles into the mud, oaths are sworn.

The courtier is something my guy can 'use' (in a friendly way). Courts have access to money - money is needed for smithing fineries. There could be an interesting 'discussion' between the characters on special forms of 'access' to the nobility (read: should my guy be ganymede as well).

I'd be happy to do BITs, but the campaign theme is important for them. Without really knowing it yet, firing blind, I'm thinking towards

Beliefs:

1. There's more legend in a work of beauty than the persons bearing it.
2. Scorn and spite are nothing to me, unless it prevents me from my craft, in which case it's just another obstacle to be removed quickly.

And in case of the overarc-revenge thing:

3. It won't be revenge - it will be justice. (i.e. my way is just).

[Verrain]

Hmmm.

The mutual revenge pact idea has merit. I'm getting a grittier Princess Bride vibe on this one. If all our targets of revenge are part of the same noble house or "group o evil", it would tie us all together.

So long as I remember to pick a trait or two for tolerance I suppose my character can handle a catamite in his midst.

[Tobias]

"handle a catamite in HIS midst"

Wow. That's really tolerant. *OUR* midst would be my preferred way of saying it. ;)

Can you image the cool Duels of Wits we could have on which one of our chars gets to slay which persons on our hit list?

[Melmoth]

I don't think that a barbarian would look favorably to an openly gay person around him. There would have to be very strong reasons for collaborating with him in whatever the goal. Having said that, I don't have any problems with anyone playing a catamite.

The revenge theme could replace the wanderlust as the reason for the barbarian to leave his clan/homeland. Now, I'm thinking to open causes that could lead the barbarian to the South to get some heads rolling. One could be more personal: 1) some petty southern noble offending his sense of honour and then the barbarian sets to restore it without further considerations about the consequence of applying barbarian laws to a noble; or 2) if the scenario was set in the northern regions, the southern nobles could be abusive to the barbarian traditions, or barbarian people were used as human shields when repelling orcish incursions. Fed up with this situation he would try to overthrow the current noble family who oppresses them.

Probably the first reason is more flexible and helps in getting the characters together. I don't know.

Thought in the last minute: maybe the barbarian joins with the catamite because he saved his live and is in debt. Not too original,though.

[Tobias]

You want more options?

The catamite looks remarkably like the barbarian's slain younger brother.

The barbarian loses a wager, on his honor (nice conflicting beliefs possible from this). Will have to 'serve the cause' for a year.

The catamite knows all the secret in-routes the barbarian needs.

The catamite has some skills the barbarian's village can really use - upon completion of the task beforehand.

[kaomera]

This is all looking very interesting... I'll admit that I have been skimping on providing definite details about the game / setting. Because we are playing PbP and not face to face I'm having a hard time really getting a solid idea of what directions the group is / isn't interested in...

The revenge motivation seems good. I have been thinking on some stuff, and later on today (after work) I'll make a post that will hopefully tie things together somewhat. (And hopefully not just cause more confusion.)

I'm ok with the Ganymede / Catamite, as long as none of the players have a problem with it. However, I really don't think it should be the central focus of the whole game. It can be kind of a touchy subject. I'll try to give you some idea of how I had thought to handle it when I post later, and we can see if that's ok. I don't want to end up in a situation where I play up NPC(s) in a way that makes anyone uncomfortable, but I don't quite see this setting as much more liberal than the real world in this respect.

[Leningrad]

I like this, especially the team revenge theme. Very Strangers on a Train (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044079/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxsbT01MDB8dHQ9b258ZmI9dXxwbj 0wfHE9c3RyYW5nZXJzIG9uIGEgdHJhaW58aHRtbD0xfG5tPW9u ;fc=1;ft=20;fm=1).

As for the barbarian, I think it'll be an interesting culture clash and provide some good intraparty tension.[/url]

[Leningrad]

I'm ok with the Ganymede / Catamite, as long as none of the players have a problem with it. However, I really don't think it should be the central focus of the whole game.

Like I said before, I want it to be an element of my character that comes up in play to cause conflict and drama. That's all. I'm not even remotely interested in being the sole focus of attention.

[Melmoth]

The barbarian loses a wager, on his honor (nice conflicting beliefs possible from this). Will have to 'serve the cause' for a year.

The catamite knows all the secret in-routes the barbarian needs.

The catamite has some skills the barbarian's village can really use - upon completion of the task beforehand

I thought something similar to this last two suggestions a while after I posted. The first one could be interesting.

As for the barbarian, I think it'll be an interesting culture clash and provide some good intraparty tension

I think the same.

Still I haven't come with a Belief that would tie in the revenge theme but there is this idea about religious conflict between the southern church and the barbarians or other isolated regions. I'd like that the barbarians (or only some clans) would be worshippers of a Moon god called Beorc the lunar force.

[kaomera]

Where I earlier said that I didn't want the (rather standard) revenge ange-driven character, it might be interesting if ALL characters are revenge driven - kinda the central theme. All 4 of them are in some way hurt and inadequate to the task of revenge. Down on their luck, they sit in the stables of an inn, to poor to go inside and get anything more than the single bottle of ale they share between them. Lighting crashes, the bottle tumbles into the mud, oaths are sworn.

I love that! Very noir. This definitely gets my vote for the theme. (I'm sorry I didn't just provide one... At the time I was thinking that working from the BITs to theme would be better, but I think it's just confused things.)

Beliefs:

1. There's more legend in a work of beauty than the persons bearing it.
2. Scorn and spite are nothing to me, unless it prevents me from my craft, in which case it's just another obstacle to be removed quickly.

And in case of the overarc-revenge thing:

3. It won't be revenge - it will be justice. (i.e. my way is just).

The first one I'm not quite sure I understand, and the second one looks ok, but for a Bloody Revenge-driven game, that third one is just GOLD!

I'd like to do four lifepaths, because then I feel like I'll get a more well-rounded character.

Yes, but would he be more fun to play with three or with four Lifepaths?

I'm thinking of dropping Courtier and replacing it with an Outcast Setting LP. Like Blackmailer or something. The character having been ousted from the Nobility, ended up near-consumed with his quest for revenge. I like that. Hmmm...

This is the number one reason I keep bringing up the number of LPs you are taking: you keep changing concepts. Switching from Noble Courtier to Outcast Blackmailer makes a huge difference in the character. For one thing, I do not see him as having been ousted from the Court, because he was never at Court. His Patron is (most likely) not a member of the Court at that point, he's a petty Noble living in the City or a wealthy merchant or a corrupt official or somesuch, but you are restricting the character's background to the City and Outcast settings, IMHO. I really would like it if you had a good reason for each LP you choose. City Born, Student, and Ganymede all seem good so far. If you take Courtier, why? Well, it gets you into the Court setting, for one. And the Skill choices certainly fit your concept. I just don't know why you would be going to Blackmailer...

One thing you may want to do is put “ex-” in front of your last lifepath choice and see if that describes your character. Because once we start play, he's entered the “After Bloody Revenge” Lifepath, so to speak...

I don't think that a barbarian would look favorably to an openly gay person around him. There would have to be very strong reasons for collaborating with him in whatever the goal. Having said that, I don't have any problems with anyone playing a catamite.

I'm not convinced your character would automatically have to care either way (or possibly even notice); these “civilized” folks have some mighty strange customs... >shrug< This could in turn spark the idea that you're going to bring the “good” parts of civilization back to your people, but only the good parts...

I can see him thinking “OK, so he's a man who wants to take on a woman's role... Or something... Well, unless they've got some pretty powerful magic down here, I don't think he's going to bear any children for his... er... Husband? But they don't exactly seem to have a shortage of people down here, anyway. That last common room I slept in had more people in it that my whole village back home!”

The revenge theme could replace the wanderlust as the reason for the barbarian to leave his clan/homeland. Now, I'm thinking to open causes that could lead the barbarian to the South to get some heads rolling. One could be more personal: 1) some petty southern noble offending his sense of honour and then the barbarian sets to restore it without further considerations about the consequence of applying barbarian laws to a noble; or 2) if the scenario was set in the northern regions, the southern nobles could be abusive to the barbarian traditions, or barbarian people were used as human shields when repelling orcish incursions. Fed up with this situation he would try to overthrow the current noble family who oppresses them.

Two semi-random thoughts that had passed through my head while I was at work today:

1) If the Barbarian society is based on strong notions of personal honor that require blood to be spilled to resolve, then they have probably developed some sort of mechanism to keep too many of their best (strong young men / warriors, who are likely to be most concerned with their personal honor) from killing each other off. Quite possibly there is some sort of formal priority in such situations. Therefore, if your character was the “most wronged” (perhaps a relative died in the situation) or was elected as the one to recover honor, this could be a situation where his whole Tribe / Clan's honor had been infringed upon...

2) It would be possible that your character's father was, in fact, a Noble of the Kingdom, hostaged to the Barbarians (hostage exchanges would be a fairly common / reasonable way of ensuring a treaty or such); or he could have been fostered to the Tribe or Clan as part of some political dealings. In either case, in-fighting within the Noble House you come from and/or the civilized folks deciding that they no longer feel like honoring their bargains with these mere primitives could lead to all sorts of motives for revenge and link your character to the others and give you an excuse to buy a Relation within the Kingdom. In either case he would have been raised by / as one of the Barbarians, and would still have no real experience with the Kingdom.

Verrain ~ One little spark, just for you: some of the herbs you gather probably are or can be used to make poisons... If Leningrad goes the Courtier route, then perhaps you where at the Court (delivering to the Court Sorcerer) when his patron mysteriously became ill and passed away. And perhaps you have some awful suspicions with regards to the symptoms of this “disease”. And perhaps you where not staying in the room assigned to you that night (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) and you returned to it to discover signs that someone had broken in... All sorts of great potential twists there, a possible introduction for your two characters, and a good reason for him to fear for his life...

[Leningrad]

This is the number one reason I keep bringing up the number of LPs you are taking: you keep changing concepts. Switching from Noble Courtier to Outcast Blackmailer makes a huge difference in the character. For one thing, I do not see him as having been ousted from the Court, because he was never at Court. His Patron is (most likely) not a member of the Court at that point, he's a petty Noble living in the City or a wealthy merchant or a corrupt official or somesuch, but you are restricting the character's background to the City and Outcast settings, IMHO. I really would like it if you had a good reason for each LP you choose. City Born, Student, and Ganymede all seem good so far. If you take Courtier, why? Well, it gets you into the Court setting, for one. And the Skill choices certainly fit your concept. I just don't know why you would be going to Blackmailer...

I'm just tossing ideas around, not changing the concept. This character is in the stage where I'm seeing him through a refracting lens. I have about a million possible ways to express the ideas I have for the character. I know this might seem like I'm waffling, but I'm just trying to look at him in as many ways as I can before I decide on one for sure. I think Courtier might be my best choice, but I don't like making him 27, either. If I stop at three lifepaths and make him end with Ganymede, I lose out on a lot of social skills and can't use my Circles to access the nobility. That's pretty bogus, I think.

Hrmh.

Still pondering. One step at a time.

[kaomera]

I'm just tossing ideas around, not changing the concept.

Keeping things flexible is good. Maybe you could make it clearer for me what is the real basis of the character and what is just possible ideas?

[Tobias]

Beliefs:

1. There's more legend in a work of beauty than the persons bearing it.
2. Scorn and spite are nothing to me, unless it prevents me from my craft, in which case it's just another obstacle to be removed quickly.

And in case of the overarc-revenge thing:

3. It won't be revenge - it will be justice. (i.e. my way is just).

The first one I'm not quite sure I understand, and the second one looks ok, but for a Bloody Revenge-driven game, that third one is just GOLD!



The first one is the 'This is telling the world I'm a proud crafter, looking to create something of beauty that is lasting'.

[Verrain]

Verrain ~ One little spark, just for you: some of the herbs you gather probably are or can be used to make poisons... If Leningrad goes the Courtier route, then perhaps you where at the Court (delivering to the Court Sorcerer) when his patron mysteriously became ill and passed away. And perhaps you have some awful suspicions with regards to the symptoms of this “disease”. And perhaps you where not staying in the room assigned to you that night (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) and you returned to it to discover signs that someone had broken in... All sorts of great potential twists there, a possible introduction for your two characters, and a good reason for him to fear for his life...

A good set of circumstances depending on how Leningrad's guy turns out.

Another possibility I had thought up was this. Our little peasant area had a recluse wizard that set up a hut nearby. The peasants and the wizard had a deal. We would would bring him meats and herbs as a tribute and in return he would help us out a bit and be a town protector. So that's why my guy went the hunter/forager route to try and get on this guy's good side. Then one day a whole bunch of mounted knights ride through town and take the wizard out. They claim he was an evil dark sorcerer out to destroy the world. My guy doesn't believe it due to his time with the recluse. Plus these guys just destroyed his dreams. I was thinking this could get traced back to the court sorcerer to put my belief in serving sorcerers against my need for revenge.

But let's see how things fall out.

[Verrain]

[quote=kaomera]

I'm just tossing ideas around, not changing the concept. This character is in the stage where I'm seeing him through a refracting lens. I have about a million possible ways to express the ideas I have for the character. I know this might seem like I'm waffling, but I'm just trying to look at him in as many ways as I can before I decide on one for sure. I think Courtier might be my best choice, but I don't like making him 27, either. If I stop at three lifepaths and make him end with Ganymede, I lose out on a lot of social skills and can't use my Circles to access the nobility. That's pretty bogus, I think.

Hrmh.

Still pondering. One step at a time.

Just a couple thoughts.

Choosing Born Noble will knock 3 years off the age and give you some noble circles without the Courtier Lifepath.

Eliminate Student. Knocks off 4 years and really does a Ganymede pretty boy have to be well-educated for a noble to take him under his wing? Yeah I know losing the 11 skill points sucks.

To drop Courtier and keep the nobility connection go City Born, Ganymede, Lead to Noble Court, Student.

[Melmoth]

It would be possible that your character's father was, in fact, a Noble of the Kingdom, hostaged to the Barbarians (...); or he could have been fostered to the Tribe or Clan as part of some political dealings.

I like this idea. I am more inclined to the character being fostered to a barbarian clan rather though. Finding he isn't truly a barbarian by birth, that he is linked somehow to the southern noble houses he despises had to be a shock for him. The need for revenge could come by wrongs inflicted upon his clan and he could learn about his origin the moment before he left.

I think that the barbarian may require blood spilled for major offenses, probably by means of some kind of ritualistic duel. Justice would be administered by the Nobles/Knights but covertly the heads of the clans/priests of the Lunar Force offer traditional justice. Maybe that's the reason lawyers and other bureaucrats find little work in the North.

Here a couple of Beliefs:

1. Any harm upon my clan/honour shall be repaired in full, no matter the consequences.

2. I am a barbarian, raised in the ways of the Lunar Force. I shall never be a southerner nor their corruption touch me.

I had a couple of busy days at work and my poor little brain was concentrated on it, so I haven't worked too much on the character. The rest of the week should be quieter and I hope I will begin to introduce Relations and define more accurately the BITs.

[Leningrad]

[quote=kaomera]

Still pondering. One step at a time.

Just a couple thoughts.

Choosing Born Noble will knock 3 years off the age and give you some noble circles without the Courtier Lifepath.

Eliminate Student. Knocks off 4 years and really does a Ganymede pretty boy have to be well-educated for a noble to take him under his wing? Yeah I know losing the 11 skill points sucks.

To drop Courtier and keep the nobility connection go City Born, Ganymede, Lead to Noble Court, Student.

I'll drop student, I think, because who needs to be well educated to be a noble courtier, anyway. *grin*

I think I'll go City Born -> Ganymede (Lead to->) Courtier

Which makes me 22 and gives me Rapier Wit and a fair number of social skills.

Yes. This is what I'll do. I've decided.

[kaomera]

Melmoth ~ I quite understand. I work at the bakery in a local restaurant, and with wedding season, graduations, and Father's Day, I'm more than swamped. So apologies if my posting is a bit brief until this weekend...

The first one is the 'This is telling the world I'm a proud crafter, looking to create something of beauty that is lasting'.

Can you possibly phrase / encompass that in an “I will...”-type statement? You might think about what, specifically, he wants to create. Maybe set a starting Ob for what he sees in his head as this “something of beauty that is lasting”. Not that the Ob can't go up (especially if he comes across works of others' craftsmanship that further inspire him), but just to give us an idea of what he's working twords. Then decide what he wants it for ~ what's he going to do with it? Is it going to demonstrate his ascendancy as a craftsman and shame his detractors? Perhaps he blames the corruption in the Kingdom on the fact that Great King Afschuwelijk's Crown has been replaced by the gaudy, ugly thing that currently sits atop the King's head. How about if he desired to create a truly worthy crown and then present it to the King, so that the whole kingdom should be inspired? Now there's a quest for ya!

Leningrad ~ I take it your concept is “Ganymede Courtier”, then? I'm sorry, I think I really should have put you on the spot to write out a definite concept before you did anything else; then we might have been able to avoid some of the problems we have had here. A “tight” concept is key, always. By “tight”, I don't mean inflexible; I just mean you have to prune it down a bit so that it's workable within the system and has some room to grow (flexibility). Try to cram too much into your concept and you're left agonizing over what to cut out, and burning characters should be fun. More “let's take this and see what I can make out of it” and less “I really want this, and this, and this... But I can't fit it all in...”. Just some thoughts for next time... I guess really it's been "Guy who specializes in Dow" the whole time, and somehow all this other stuff got overemphasized. In any case, I like what you've ended up with, and I'm interested in seeing what you've got for BITs...


Now I think it's time we all started getting to the meaty bits of the characters. BITs, obviously, as well as Relationships. But also go ahead and start figuring out what skills you want, and how you're going to allocate points for those & stats & Traits...

[Leningrad]

Leningrad ~ I take it your concept is “Ganymede Courtier”, then? I'm sorry, I think I really should have put you on the spot to write out a definite concept before you did anything else; then we might have been able to avoid some of the problems we have had here. A “tight” concept is key, always. By “tight”, I don't mean inflexible; I just mean you have to prune it down a bit so that it's workable within the system and has some room to grow (flexibility). Try to cram too much into your concept and you're left agonizing over what to cut out, and burning characters should be fun. More “let's take this and see what I can make out of it” and less “I really want this, and this, and this... But I can't fit it all in...”. Just some thoughts for next time... I guess really it's been "Guy who specializes in Dow" the whole time, and somehow all this other stuff got overemphasized. In any case, I like what you've ended up with, and I'm interested in seeing what you've got for BITs...

My concept is "Vengeful Courtier" with the Ganymede LP and it's associated traits providing colour and flavour. This way, I retain some force in the story (the vengeful part, allowing my character to have an overarching goal) and to fill a particular niche that I wanted to fill (the DoW guy). I don't think I really agonized or had trouble with the character. I just never really cemented on anything until the end. It's actually how I normally make characters. I throw down a handful of potential ideas and just poke around at them until they fit together in a way I find pleasing.

As far as Beliefs go, I'm going to put those together last, because I like to know what my character is before I know who he is. If I have my mechanical stuff out of the way, I can focus on the Beliefs. I am envisioning my character as quite dark, and my ideas for beliefs so far reflect that. This might change by the time I have all my points allocated, etc.

[kaomera]

Leningrad ~ This all really seems somewhat to me, especially for BW. (Mind you, I can totally understand it in terms of not being familiar with the system; however, you say this is your normal method of creating characters, so I feel I should point this out. And I'm not the expert on BW yet, not by a longshot. But this is how I see things working, at this point, all IMHO.) "Vengeful Courtier" is a very good concept, but it seems to be something you've cobbled together out of various disconnected bits. I really think it would have been better if you had decided on a concept before you started playing around with stuff. Look at the Ganymede LP ~ if it's as important to your idea of the character as you seem to have indicated previously, then it's (at least effectively) part of your concept. Likewise, the “vengeful” part is really just a reminder to angle one or more of your Beliefs in that direction. I felt you where “agonizing” over the issue because it took so long for me to get a firm idea of what you wanted for your character. This is very important in BW, or any other system where you involve collaborative character creation. The other players are going to end up stuck waiting for your move before they can really finalize anything or progress in burning their own characters. You have to provide a workable concept for the others to work off of, and you have to stick to it as much as you can.

Likewise your BITs. You can start with your Traits ~ most of them are going to be determined by your Lifepaths, anyway. But you have to give the other players something to work with here. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter as much. I don't think that holding your Beliefs and Instincts completely until the very last is a good policy, but you really only need to keep them in mind while you do other stuff. I don't think you need to start off with a full set, completely finalized and immutable. But you have to bring something to the table for the other players to work with. Likewise, I think it's good to keep the different LPs available in mind when coming up with a concept, but it seems like you really didn't have anything firm up until the very end. Or, if you did, you weren't sharing it.

I think obviously you're going to have the vengeance angle (that's built into your concept). How are you going to reflect that with your Beliefs? Are you going to take your (late, lamented) Patron (ie: is your connection to him still going to be of some use to you, even now that he is dead)? Will you be taking an Affiliation with the Court?

[Tobias]

Kaomera - good call on getting me to tune up that first belief.. and I'm also not too happy with the second one.

We're going vengeance, so the (formerly) third one can stay. How about:

1. I will create a crown that's REALLY fit for a king (insert backstory and appropriate ob here. 8? 9? 10? I see this guy driven enough to not care if he's really old by the time he gets it done) - but only one worthy of it will ever receive it.

2. It won't be revenge - it will be justice.

3. The best results are achieved through practise, repetition, patience, and then striking the one true blow when it offers itself.

Self-worth, a desire to create a legacy, long-term goals are wrapped up in the first one. Pain, need, wrath, are wrapped up in the second one. The third should be a 'modus operandi' belief - not the goal of the path, but the way of walking the path. (The 'one true blow' can obviously relate to both hammering/forging a piece of work, as well as the revenge).

Instincts should be in the order of:

1. When first coming across smithed work or ingredients, Assess for value, craftsmanship, and potential.

2. An empty hand is an idle hand - if both hands are empty, grab something - preferrably a smithing tool (hammer), but a flask of beer, a fork, or a rock will do, as appropriate.

3. Still open - either something to do with some trauma/experience caused by the killing/destruction of his previous smithing master. ('When going to sleep, Assess for escape routes?'). Or another option is 'I will create one difficult practise work each week'.

LP's, skills, traits, etc., will have to wait until tomorrow, since I'm not getting the book this evening but tomorrow evening (curses!). Still, they should be fairly obvious - village or city born (depending on what gains more immediate access to smithing), smithing apprentice (twice?). Or another lifepath for flavor - I see this guy as being big & bearlike - generally harmless, but dangerous potential. So a bit of rough-n-tumble from some angle is appreciated.

Skills - smithing, a bit of brawling, that's core. I know Grey skills are a BIG BIG thing in BW, and I have no clue whether I could have one, it would add coolness, and fit the campaign, but grey smithing skill sounds appropriate to me (I'll do fine without as well if that's more appropriate, no sweat). I also like the concepts of duels of wits about which of us gets to eliminate which target. I don't mind losing them (verbal powerhouse he ain't), but he'll at least offer his opinion strongly, before caving. ;)

Until I get to burn in detail, can someone mention which smithing skills / lifepaths there are? (And which are for noble materials and crown-like stuff?). I seem to recall someone mentioning a missing lead/lifepath in the smithing regions? Luke/Thor?

[Tobias]

note: on the grey skill - I meant to say that I don't know whether it will add coolness or fit the campaign. That sentence seems a bit unclear on re-reading and I didn't find an edit button on my post (perhaps a bit of blindness?)

[Verrain]

Until I get to burn in detail, can someone mention which smithing skills / lifepaths there are? (And which are for noble materials and crown-like stuff?). I seem to recall someone mentioning a missing lead/lifepath in the smithing regions? Luke/Thor?

For regular blacksmithing, any of the Apprentice LP's will do you. However, for pretties, you want Whitesmithing, i.e. smithing silver and gold. Only the City LP Apprentice Artisan gives that to you. You might also consider the Jeweler lifepath if you are picturing a gem studded crown.

[Verrain]

OK, trying to decide between three possibilities LP wise.

The first has my guy convinced he will never be a mage and is going full tilt ranger with Born Peasant, Hunter, Lead to Outcast, Ranger.

I will find glory and purpose at the side of a mage.
I will protect the weak from the strong.
Vengenace or reward should be payed threefold.

The second matches the Ranger/Herb Seller scenario mentioned by kaomera with Born Peasant, Hunter, Peddler.

If I can prove myself, the court sorcerer will take me as his apprentice.
In business, honesty is the best policy
Vengenace or reward should be payed threefold.

The third matches my recluse wizard revenge scenario which has my guy trying to be worthy of this guy's teaching and so tries the only source for education for a peasant, the Church. Born Peasant, Hunter, Lead to Village, Acolyte.

If I can prove myself, a mage will take me as his apprentice.
All things come to those that are patient and diligent.
Vengenace or reward should be payed threefold.

What do you guys think? 1,2,3 or some mix and match on the Beliefs?

[kaomera]

1. I will create a crown that's REALLY fit for a king (insert backstory and appropriate ob here. 8? 9? 10? I see this guy driven enough to not care if he's really old by the time he gets it done) - but only one worthy of it will ever receive it.

2. It won't be revenge - it will be justice.

3. The best results are achieved through practise, repetition, patience, and then striking the one true blow when it offers itself.

First are two really good. A bit nitpicky, but how about “I will achieve my goals through practice, repetition, patience, and then striking the one true blow when it offers itself.” for the third?

1. When first coming across smithed work or ingredients, Assess for value, craftsmanship, and potential.

2. An empty hand is an idle hand - if both hands are empty, grab something - preferably a smithing tool (hammer), but a flask of beer, a fork, or a rock will do, as appropriate.

3. Still open - either something to do with some trauma/experience caused by the killing/destruction of his previous smithing master. ('When going to sleep, Assess for escape routes?'). Or another option is 'I will create one difficult practice work each week'.

The first one is going to be time-consuming... If you limit it to finely-crafted items you will at least stop after the first Assess most of the time. The second one is a bit tricky, IMHO. I'm not sure what to do with it.

We can wait for final stuff until you get the book. I personally think that the choice between Village or City Born is pretty important, either leads to Apprentice. Grey skills are Supernatural. The only way I can see for you to get a Gray skill at start is the Child Prodigy Trait, which limits you to no more than 2 LPs. I don't think that's the best way to go, but maybe. Whitesmithing is the skill you want, and you may end up having to buy it out of your General skills, but I think that's kind of appropriate...

Verrain ~
“I will find glory and purpose at the side of a mage.”
or
“If I can prove myself, the court sorcerer will take me as his apprentice.”

Since you don't have the Gift, the first one seems like it might be more appropriate. However, the self-deception inherent in the second seems interesting, as well.

The rest are all pretty good. It will depend on which way you go with the character. The “Vengeance should be payed threefold.” one might be better dealing with how you intend on going about getting revenge, but that's just IMHO and it could be interesting either way.

If you guys want more thoughts / ideas / responses, you should probably post this stuff in some other appropriate forums (Character Burner / Fevered Circle)

[Leningrad]

Leningrad ~ This all really seems somewhat to me, especially for BW. (Mind you, I can totally understand it in terms of not being familiar with the system; however, you say this is your normal method of creating characters, so I feel I should point this out. And I'm not the expert on BW yet, not by a longshot. But this is how I see things working, at this point, all IMHO.)

Somewhat what? *laugh* It's not a case of being unfamiliar with the system. I've had Burning Wheel for quite some time, and have started running a game of my own. It's just a personal choice. I come up with what I want my character to be able to do, then I look at as many different ways to implement that idea as I can and choose from there.

"Vengeful Courtier" is a very good concept, but it seems to be something you've cobbled together out of various disconnected bits. I really think it would have been better if you had decided on a concept before you started playing around with stuff. Look at the Ganymede LP ~ if it's as important to your idea of the character as you seem to have indicated previously, then it's (at least effectively) part of your concept. Likewise, the “vengeful” part is really just a reminder to angle one or more of your Beliefs in that direction. I felt you where “agonizing” over the issue because it took so long for me to get a firm idea of what you wanted for your character. This is very important in BW, or any other system where you involve collaborative character creation. The other players are going to end up stuck waiting for your move before they can really finalize anything or progress in burning their own characters. You have to provide a workable concept for the others to work off of, and you have to stick to it as much as you can.

I feel somewhat unfairly criticized for my play style at this point, because, to me, concept is really just something to keep in mind while you're burning up your character. My concept stayed loose until I had mucked around in the lifepaths for a while. All I wanted was a character who could talk himself out of trouble. From there, I picked LP's that would add flavour and help me to implement that concept. From there, I came up with Vengeful Courtier. I know that the CB pushes a slightly different approach, but at this point, I'm at least as wholly sure of my character as anyone else, and I don't believe I've held anyone else back.

Likewise your BITs. You can start with your Traits ~ most of them are going to be determined by your Lifepaths, anyway. But you have to give the other players something to work with here. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter as much. I don't think that holding your Beliefs and Instincts completely until the very last is a good policy, but you really only need to keep them in mind while you do other stuff. I don't think you need to start off with a full set, completely finalized and immutable. But you have to bring something to the table for the other players to work with. Likewise, I think it's good to keep the different LPs available in mind when coming up with a concept, but it seems like you really didn't have anything firm up until the very end. Or, if you did, you weren't sharing it.

I think that there's a reason you come up with your beliefs and instincts last. I, for one, don't care to have any input in what the other characters choose, skill-wise. Honestly, that's their decision. Once the character is built mechanically, then I start thinking about Beliefs and Instincts. I've already basically hammered out my skill points and I'm at the point where we can start discussing BIT's. I think I'm on the same page, at this point, as everyone else.

I think obviously you're going to have the vengeance angle (that's built into your concept). How are you going to reflect that with your Beliefs? Are you going to take your (late, lamented) Patron (ie: is your connection to him still going to be of some use to you, even now that he is dead)? Will you be taking an Affiliation with the Court?

My first belief is going to be something like "Whoever is responsible for the death of my true love is doomed to die by my hand." The other two I'm still mulling over. I think I'll likely use them to tie me to the other characters. Something about barbarians, perhaps, or non-city folk in general. I'm not sure what to do about my character's dead lover, points-wise. I mean, can you even take a Relationship with a dead man? If not, perhaps his successor in court, or a close friend of his. I'm likely to be taking a 2D affiliation and maybe a 1D reputation. I'm aiming for 3D in resources, but I don't see that happening (as it only leaves me with 5 rp for gear, property and relationships).

[Tobias]

1. I will create a crown that's REALLY fit for a king (insert backstory and appropriate ob here. 8? 9? 10? I see this guy driven enough to not care if he's really old by the time he gets it done) - but only one worthy of it will ever receive it.

2. It won't be revenge - it will be justice.

3. The best results are achieved through practise, repetition, patience, and then striking the one true blow when it offers itself.

First are two really good. A bit nitpicky, but how about “I will achieve my goals through practice, repetition, patience, and then striking the one true blow when it offers itself.” for the third?

That would work. However, it offers no ties to the other characters (smart comment from this thread since my last post). So instead, I'll go for a belief that creates a reason to cooperate.

Something like:

3. An artist's talents are wasted on scutwork - a team is more than the sum of it's components. For my revenge and my craft, I will assemble a sound support structure. (sounds a bit 21st century, need to restate).


1. When first coming across smithed work or ingredients, Assess for value, craftsmanship, and potential.

2. An empty hand is an idle hand - if both hands are empty, grab something - preferably a smithing tool (hammer), but a flask of beer, a fork, or a rock will do, as appropriate.

3. Still open - either something to do with some trauma/experience caused by the killing/destruction of his previous smithing master. ('When going to sleep, Assess for escape routes?'). Or another option is 'I will create one difficult practice work each week'.

The first one is going to be time-consuming... If you limit it to finely-crafted items you will at least stop after the first Assess most of the time.

Good point. So make it finely crafted, indeed, and assess for craftsmanship (more important than value for this guy)
The second one is a bit tricky, IMHO. I'm not sure what to do with it.

Just assume I'll have a hammer in hand when around the smithy, a walking stick or rock when on the trail, and a fork and pint when eating. For any other circumstance, just a bit of scrap metal with some potential.

If this seems like too much to cram into an instinct, let me know. I'm trying to model what I do myself in real life. :)


We can wait for final stuff until you get the book. I personally think that the choice between Village or City Born is pretty important, either leads to Apprentice. Grey skills are Supernatural. The only way I can see for you to get a Gray skill at start is the Child Prodigy Trait, which limits you to no more than 2 LPs. I don't think that's the best way to go, but maybe. Whitesmithing is the skill you want, and you may end up having to buy it out of your General skills, but I think that's kind of appropriate...


The book comes tonight! Joy!

I understand on the grey. We'll have to see whether I don't wind up with something way too 1-dimensional if I go that route.

[Verrain]

>Just assume I'll have a hammer in hand when around the smithy, a >walking stick or rock when on the trail, and a fork and pint when eating. >For any other circumstance, just a bit of scrap metal with some potential.

>If this seems like too much to cram into an instinct, let me know. I'm >trying to model what I do myself in real life. :)

I think you should drop it as an instinct and look into the trait Atravieso. It basically describes a person that must be fiddling with something in his hands.

[Tobias]

Ah cool!

That's what a lack of book will do for you. If Atraviesto isn't too expensive, consider it part of my write-up, and I'll look for a new instinct.

Anyone cool suggestions?

[Tobias]

Hmmm I just found that trait on this site as well. Seems like it's a bit geared towards bumbly-breaky-fragile-thingy's. That's not what I want.

[Verrain]

Perhaps not that exactly, but I see no reason why a similar trait cannot be developed. I think it would truly fit better as a trait than at instinct.

[Tobias]

Good point. So, dear GM and fellow players, how about a non-bumbly version of that trait for this campaign and my guy?

And I'm still taking suggestions for the instinct that'll open up.

[Tobias]

Ok. I may have a 'problem'.

If I burn my concept as it stands in isolation, we get this (everything black, except for one skill - whitesmithing):

Bram Ochtendzoon

Lifepaths: Born villager, Apprentice

Age: 17

Wi:4 Pe:3 Ag:5 Sp:4 Po:4 Fo:4

Skills:
Mending: B3
Blacksmithing: B4
Whitesmith: G3 (!)
Brawling: B2

Health: 5 (athletic and active)
Steel: 3 (possibly 4 if he's killed in escaping whatever destroyed his master)
Refl: 4
MW: 10

Traits:
Broken-In, Child prodigy, GottaHaveSomethingInMyHands

Rest to still be determined. Beliefs and Instincts under discussion, see previous.

While I like the concept, I worry at using him in play - will he be able to do interesting stuff according to the rest of you? I don't really mean adequacy to the task (there's story in everything), but adequacy in amusement.

I've fiddled around a bit, most LPs would add too many years (imho), although journeyman might be the most logical one. Kid I don't think is appropriate to the concept.

Any comments or suggestions welcome!

[Verrain]

Well I can certainly see why he would help with the whole revenge angle as he's not really trained for this sort of thing.

Well the fun part is that with Beginner's Luck rules he's got a decent shot at trying everything. The guy can really grow in many directions.

I just wonder if you'll get bored having put all your points into smithing if we are making the focus of the game revenge. Unless of course we concoct a plan whereby some great act of creation by our child prodigy here could throw down our enemies. After all, not all revenge has to come at the end of a sword now does it? Yes I've been thinking too narrowly about revenge.

I think he could be quite fun so long as you don't get discouraged while waiting for him to grow a bit.

[Verrain]

Verrain ~
“I will find glory and purpose at the side of a mage.”
or
“If I can prove myself, the court sorcerer will take me as his apprentice.”

Since you don't have the Gift, the first one seems like it might be more appropriate. However, the self-deception inherent in the second seems interesting, as well.

Yeah the self deception angle is what I was going for. We know its impossible. The country bumpkin here doesn't. I think I am going to go with the Herb and Animal part supplier to the Court Sorcerer background along with the mysterious death and the room ransacking.


Beliefs:

If I can prove myself, the court sorcerer will take me as his apprentice.
I will bring those trying to frame me to justice.
Hunts are won by advanced planning and patience.

Instincts:

In the wild, always assess for rare plants or animal tracks.
Never haggle with a wizard just accept what is offered.
When on the hunt, keep an arrow knocked.

[Tobias]

If you guys are cool with him, I'm cool with him. Growth will be fun!

In fact, whoever destroyed my old master's stuff probably has something to do with smithing, right? Unless it was more personal. But say it has something to do with the smithing - then the revenge (destruction of reputation) might now neccesarily be the kill type. It might also be the 'destroy reputation and drive to despair' type. Perhaps our courtier friend knows a few people who'd love to see my enemy crawl in the dust - I'm perfectly willing to be a pawn, if the global strategy will bring defeat of my enemy!

[Melmoth]

Tomorrow I fly to Santiago de Compostela to assist to a meeting. It will keep me there until next friday. I hope I will be able to find some internet connection somewhere (library or cybercafe) and check the forums. If it's not possible, I'll have to wait until I come back home. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

I've been thinking about the barbarian and his revenge. I can keep the same background as before (young man stricken by wanderlust) but with the twist of being insulted in some inn by a southern noble. This would set the revenge/reckoning in motion (the final goal isn't the noble's head rolling in the floor but some kind of public apology or a first blood duel).
The barbarian, as pointed by Kaomera, could be of noble origin fostered by the barbarians. So when he departed, his clan knew that that was just a matter of time and gave him the name of someone related to him in South (a diplomat, a courtier, a veteran soldier...). Also the noble who offended him could be guilty of major affairs (like being the responsible/instigator of the Smith's mentor or of the courtier or whatever) and, as well, he could be a member of his unknown southern family (brother or uncle). I think that with this background will be easier to tie the barbarian with the other characters.

I'll try to rewrite the Beliefs and Instincts before I go.

Oh, and I'm sure the prodigy child will make astounding and useful items. I see potential there.

[kaomera]

OK, just wanted to let you all know I'm still here. I have been trying my best to keep up, and I should have some more thoughts to post tonight.

[kaomera]

I've tried to be fairly liberal with the “IMHO”s from the beginning here. Like I said in the opening post, “Remember: Until we actually start play (which will be a new thread), I'm just another player. I can't demand you do anything with your character, so take anything I say as a suggestion only. Likewise, if you want to muscle in and make up setting stuff, please do! If you'd like anything clarified or expanded upon (and you don't want to do it yourself), ask; I will probably hold off a bit on responding to that sort of thing tho - maybe someone else has something they'd like to add, eh?” I also almost just wanted to let this particular thread drop, but it is a real concern of mine. And I especially feel like I need to address it as I'm kinda new to the whole BW thing, ok? So, while I'd kinda like to be cut some slack here, I think it's more important if you point out anything you think is wrong and/or counterproductive...

Somewhat what? *laugh* It's not a case of being unfamiliar with the system. I've had Burning Wheel for quite some time, and have started running a game of my own. It's just a personal choice. I come up with what I want my character to be able to do, then I look at as many different ways to implement that idea as I can and choose from there.

I'm not completely sure what word I wanted to use there. I had edited out both “confusing” and “worrying”, and apparently I never got back to it before I posted it. Sorry.

“What I want my character to be able to do” ~ I see that as your concept. I had wanted you to post that concept out in the open, so that everyone could see it and we could collaborate based upon that information. It concerned me that I didn't seem to be able to understand what you where trying to do with the character, and that it didn't seem to me that the other players could either, and they seemed to be left scrambling to catch up as more (important) facets of your character came to light. Maybe I just shouldn't have let it bother me at all, the end results seem to be really good.

I feel somewhat unfairly criticized for my play style at this point, because, to me, concept is really just something to keep in mind while you're burning up your character. My concept stayed loose until I had mucked around in the lifepaths for a while. All I wanted was a character who could talk himself out of trouble. From there, I picked LP's that would add flavour and help me to implement that concept. From there, I came up with Vengeful Courtier. I know that the CB pushes a slightly different approach, but at this point, I'm at least as wholly sure of my character as anyone else, and I don't believe I've held anyone else back.

I'm really sorry it came off that way. This was a concern of mine from the point that you announced that “Sorcerer” really wasn't a part of your concept after all. I was conflicted about not bringing it up immediately (and I still think maybe I should have), but as I said above I was assuming you simply where not intimately familiar with the rules / LPs and you had ditched Sorcerer after you saw what it was going to entail. I apologize for making assumptions like that ~ I should have asked. I was hoping that the situation would just smooth itself over, and we would have a stable platform to work from, but that didn't end up happening, and I thought it was better to bring my concerns out in the open. I was not trying to say that you are doing things wrong, or that you have to do it my way. What I was trying to say was that I didn't understand why your concept seemed to keep changing, why you still seemed to be working on your basic concept when I had hoped that we would be fleshing out and finishing up characters. I felt that some comments, about “waiting to see what Leningrad does” seemed to indicate that everything was starting to revolve around how you worked out your character, and it seemed like you where not getting any further along. I wanted you to explain, which you have done. In that light, I feel completely justified in bringing it up (and I'm sorry if my tone was hostile, I didn't mean for that to happen).

I did expect much less of a loose concept. I was hoping for flexibility, and I expected to have to coax that out of at least one player. Much to my delight, I haven't really had to do that. But, also, I had certain expectations of what “We start with Concepts. Concepts only, please. Once we have those, we can start doing BITs + Rs.” meant. Maybe I should have been more clear about that. That's part of my play style, and that's why I posted it. I also never came out and said that, “This is how I envision things being done, and if you're going to want to do it differently, tell me.”; I thought it was assumed. To me, “clear communication of your character concept to the other players” has always been the fundamental building block of cooperative character creating ~ otherwise you might as well just each go off and build your characters in a vacuum. But perhaps I should change that to just “clear communication”.

I think that there's a reason you come up with your beliefs and instincts last. I, for one, don't care to have any input in what the other characters choose, skill-wise. Honestly, that's their decision. Once the character is built mechanically, then I start thinking about Beliefs and Instincts. I've already basically hammered out my skill points and I'm at the point where we can start discussing BIT's. I think I'm on the same page, at this point, as everyone else.

I have to agree with you on skills being personal choice. That certainly puts a different spin on things... I definitely do not want to foster the old-skool D&D “we need a cleric, we don't have a cleric, you get to play the cleric” mentality. At the same time, I don't think you really can choose skills (or much of anything else) effectively without a clear concept. At least I can't, this is still all IMHO... That's why I thought “guy who specializes in DoW” was a perfectly fine concept, it was something you could definitely do within the rules, and it gave you a good idea of what you would choose for LPs / skills / etc. Perhaps this is all just semantics, but “suddenly” (or so it seemed to me) removing the Sorcerer part, or adding Ganymede just seemed to be confusing the issue. If you had said “well, Ganymede seems to support my concept, and it adds an interesting twist to the character”, maybe I wouldn't have been bothered (and maybe I would, looking back on it I'm not entirely sure), but it seemed as if Ganymede kind of hijacked your concept, and I was never completely sure why you would go that route in that case. Again, I chalked it up to inexperience with the LPs; I assumed you hadn't seen and/or understood the Ganymede LP before, and now that you did you wanted that to be your concept. I actually feel like I'm being kind of a jerk in bringing it up, because it all worked out so well. But I really didn't know which way the character was going from one post to the next, and that hampered me in trying to get a good idea of what the game was going to be “about” rolling in my head... It doesn't seem to have bothered any of the other players nearly as much as I feared it would; but I found myself getting a bit desperate to get all the character burning wrapped up before Melmoth had to leave, because I figured I was going to need the time to mull over where things could / would lead and get enough “bits” in my head to pull from that I could actually run something. I don't want to have to constantly be holding up the game because I haven't got enough stuff to pull from to keep things rolling.

And I'm sorry, but to me it doesn't seem to matter as much how far you've gotten in burning your character if you aren't sharing... If you don't think you should start with a concept or BITs, please tell me that. If you want to do the mechanical stuff first, tell us that and post them. If you have a bunch of stuff done, but it's not really finalized, say “Hey, here's what I'm thinking of doing, but I may change some of it...”. That's what I want, at least.

My first belief is going to be something like "Whoever is responsible for the death of my true love is doomed to die by my hand." The other two I'm still mulling over. I think I'll likely use them to tie me to the other characters. Something about barbarians, perhaps, or non-city folk in general. I'm not sure what to do about my character's dead lover, points-wise. I mean, can you even take a Relationship with a dead man? If not, perhaps his successor in court, or a close friend of his. I'm likely to be taking a 2D affiliation and maybe a 1D reputation. I'm aiming for 3D in resources, but I don't see that happening (as it only leaves me with 5 rp for gear, property and relationships).

I think perhaps everyone's too fixated on directly tying the characters together with your BITs, or excusing their Concepts. I'd rather see us play from a starting point of “Of course I'm ok with the other characters”, because to me that's what's going to be the most fun. It allows us to play out all sorts of fun conflicts, without having to worry about not fun “all the characters kill each other ten minutes into the first session”. Actually, I think perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say...

This is one of the reasons I think posting BITs is so important: rather than taking Beliefs about Barbarians in general, maybe it would be better to take something that parallels at least one of the other characters' BITs (the revenge one does this). Also think about at least one that will create some kind of mild friction and/or rivalry, perhaps?

I think a Relationship with your dead lover seems appropriate, as (even though dead) he is still going to play a major part in the game; but this assumes that his contacts would still be useful. And I'm not 100% sure that's correct rules-wise, in any case. It's just what feels right to me.

I think that 3D Resources / 5rp worth of gear could work out OK. You've run off, you're out on the streets, you didn't really even have all that much of your own to take with you, because you never needed to. But you have recourse, damnit! You can call in favors, work contacts, etc. to get what you need (and maybe you even grabbed some coin or salable jewelry on your way out).

[kaomera]

Tobias ~ See my comments above about “cooperation” Beliefs. Your character will do what you want him too, anyway, and without you guys cooperating, there's not much game as such (IMHO). Besides, if you make that a Belief, then I have to challenge it, right? I don't really, personally, want to be trying to rip the group apart. It could actually be fun, but I think it kind of assumes that you would always be resisting the temptation to break up; and it's not exactly what I usually like to do as a GM. So, yeah, in a sense I'm protecting my own “fun” here. But I am willing to give it a try, if that's what you want.

“Have a hammer in hand when around the smithy, a walking stick when on the trail, and a fork and pint when eating.” seems like it's make a boss Instinct.

Skills:
Mending: B3
Blacksmithing: B4
Whitesmith: G3 (!)
Brawling: B2

Wow... Shouldn't you have 9 skill points? 2 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 8. That's the “problem” with Apprentice ~ you really aren't anything but an Apprentice for those years, hence “Broken In”. I think the character is good. He's gonna have to rely on Beginner's Luck on a whole lot of things, but that's ok, that's why the rule is there.

We are going to have to work things up so that you get to use your skills, and that's not going to be as easy as it could be, since that is going to tend to mean access to materials and a smithy to work at. But I don't see any reason whatsoever that we can't manage that.

Verrain ~ Looks good. I especially like “I will bring those trying to frame me to justice.” for the Justice part. I can already see friction (not really open conflict) between this and “It won't be revenge - it will be justice.”. (And I think that's a good thing.) Yours says to me: “I'm going to bring them before the law of the land, and they will get what they deserve.”, whereas Tobias' says to me “Whatever punishment I choose to mete out is Justice.” That seems pretty cool to me, but I'm not 100% sure I'm reading them both right... What do you think?

[Tobias]

Thanks on that skill point catch. Not sure where to put it yet - perhaps add 1 more to (regular) smithing? Would support the concept best, I guess.

Dunno what to do with that 3rd belief yet - how are we for deadlines in the process, so far?

If the 'in hand' instinct is ok, I'd like to run with it. Dunno what I'll do with my 1 trait point. Suggestions welcome.

I've thought about turning the brawling B2 into boxing B2 - as in the 'boxing teaches discipline, respect for others, etc.', probably pushed there by his father-figure smith master before his demise.

[kaomera]

Thanks on that skill point catch. Not sure where to put it yet - perhaps add 1 more to (regular) smithing? Would support the concept best, I guess.

B5 Blacksmithing... kinda scary... (Well, maybe not :P )

Dunno what to do with that 3rd belief yet - how are we for deadlines in the process, so far?

I don't really want to set a deadline (but I will if you all want one). I may start poking people eventually, but since I don't think anyone's 100% done yet, I'm not worried.

If the 'in hand' instinct is ok, I'd like to run with it. Dunno what I'll do with my 1 trait point. Suggestions welcome.

Well, I think it's cool, for what that's worth. How about a Character Trait: "Big", "Swarthy", etc?

I've thought about turning the brawling B2 into boxing B2 - as in the 'boxing teaches discipline, respect for others, etc.', probably pushed there by his father-figure smith master before his demise.

Oh, that could be kind of interesting...

[Tobias]

I'll give you what I have till now. Just drawing a blank on that 3rd belief.

Bram Ochtendzoon

Born in a village to loving parents. One of his first memories is his mother's face above him, smiling, a single goldlike braid in her hair-band. During his youth, she'd tell him stories of legend - one of them he'd want to hear often - about Afschuwelijk's crown. Apprenticed to a master smith - where it was discovered VERY soon that this kid was scarily talented. The smith saw, of course, and favored Bram with more time, attention and opportunities. Jealousy from the other boys (and some men) in the smithy ensued, and even Bram's one fleeting love-interest shied away due to these people's blackballing of his name.
Bram didn't care overly - his work was his passion, and those who became to annoying, his fists were ready. In an effort to bestow upon him a sense of control and understanding of the use of force, the smith persuaded an old army buddy of his to teach Bram some boxing - that would take the lack of control out of his swinging and more appropriately, WHEN he started swinging.

The smith started talking to Bram about moving to the big city. There'd be more people in demand for more advanced work, the smith had some old connections there (although he didn't look unreservedly pleased as he said this), and he was working privately on one very special assignment that, he said, would give them the financial push they needed to do so. Bram was up for it. The smith started making preparations. Many foul looks ensued.

Then the foulest of nights ensued - Bram woke to screams, harsh sounds, and the smell of the smithy on fire. Rushing to his master's room, he bumped into a figure - they both went down in a sprawl. The other was quicker to rise, but Bram tore off a piece of his clothing as he scrambled away. When he finally scrambled into his master's room, his mind almost froze with the sight of his master and his wife slain in their bed.

He bolted. Out the back door, into the night, into the woods.

During the night, he returned. First into his parent's house, where he let them know he was allright. The other villagers had put out the fire and had returned to their beds - still he had little time, before the early risers would be about again. He snatched up his tools, some clothes, found nothing else he wanted to take, and, set off to the city.

On the path, the pale morning sun started rising. In one hand, a walking stick, in the other hand, the very high quality piece of cloth he'd torn away - too expensive for any of the villagers. The smell of fire and ash lingered in his wild head of hair, slowly his usually somewhat lumbering gate transformed to one of purpose...

Lifepaths: Born villager, Apprentice

Age: 17

Wi:4 Pe:3 Ag:6 Sp:3 Po:4 Fo:4

Health: 5 (athletic and active)
Steel: 3
Refl: 4
MW: 10

Skills:
Mending: B4
Blacksmithing: B6
Whitesmithing: G4
Boxing: B3

Traits:
Broken-In, Child prodigy, Bearlike (Character Trait).

Gear:
Clothes, Shoes, Travelling Kit, Work toolkit (smithing).

Resources B0

Circles B2

Beliefs

1. I will create a crown that's REALLY fit for a king - but only one worthy of it will ever receive it.

2. It won't be revenge - it will be justice.

3. -

Instincts

1. Never say no to a challenging smithing job. (Ripe for trouble! :) )

2. A hammer for the smithy, a walking stick for the road, fork and pint when eating.

3. When going to sleep, Assess for escape routes (due to trauma)

[Tobias]

no comment?

[kaomera]

no comment?

Not yet, no, sorry... I will ASAP.

[kaomera]

OK, looks good. I'm interested to see the other characters now... We can let that 3rd Belief wait a bit if need be, but you otherwise look good to go.

[Verrain]

Marek Tormson

Background write-up to come later.

Lifepaths: Born peasant, hunter, peddler

Age: 18

Wi:B5 Pe:B4 Ag:B5 Sp:B4 Po:B4 Fo:B4

Health: B4
Steel: B4
Refl: B4
MW: B10

Skills:
Hunting B3
Tracking B3
Stealthy B3
Orienteering B2
Bow B3
Mending B3
Haggling B3
Persuasion B2
Herbalism B3
Knives B2


Traits:
Blank Stare, Eidetic Memory, Light Sleeper, Agreeable
Gear:
Clothes, Shoes, Travelling Kit, RoM Knives, RoM Hunting Bow, Reinforced Leather Suit

Resources B0

Circles B2

Beliefs:

If I can prove myself, the court sorcerer will take me as his apprentice.
I will bring those trying to frame me to justice.
Hunts are won by advanced planning and patience.

Instincts:

In the wild, always assess for rare plants or animal tracks.
Never haggle with a wizard just accept what is offered.
When on the hunt, keep an arrow knocked.

[Leningrad]

I'll post what I've got so far pretty soon, I just need to know something first; how much, resource-points-wise, should I be spending on my dead mentor? He's really more of a kicker to start my character down the dark path of revenge than an in-play resource of any kind. Thoughts?

[kaomera]

I'll post what I've got so far pretty soon, I just need to know something first; how much, resource-points-wise, should I be spending on my dead mentor? He's really more of a kicker to start my character down the dark path of revenge than an in-play resource of any kind. Thoughts?

I was thinking a Relationship would work, now I'm leaning twords just an Affiliation, perhaps. Both assume that you can still call upon his circle of friends. In either case, I think your BITs adequately assure that he is part of the story (or back-story, at least). Other than that, it's up to you. 1D Affiliation would be 10 rp; 2D would be 25, and would suggest that your mentor was seriously connected... A Relationship would be either 2 or 7 rp, I think. I can still almost see this working as a Relationship, as though dead he is going to be an important crux for the game... But a Relationship also does not allow the extra dice with Circles tests.

Tobias ~ I had just considered this: what does your smithing toolkit consist of? I'm thinking you can't just lug around an anvil and forge, but you ought to have access to one (or otherwise the character will be somewhat less fun, eh?). You could take a 5rp (base) Relationship instead, in which case you don't get to keep your tools with you. Alternately (maybe better), I can assume you know a local Smithy who doesn't really particularly like you, but will let you use his shop odd hours in return for doing work for him (and letting him take credit for it too, most likely).

Verrain ~ I'm not sure I can see that third Belief generating any Artha... Just sayin', otherwise looks good.

[Leningrad]

I was thinking a Relationship would work, now I'm leaning twords just an Affiliation, perhaps. Both assume that you can still call upon his circle of friends. In either case, I think your BITs adequately assure that he is part of the story (or back-story, at least). Other than that, it's up to you. 1D Affiliation would be 10 rp; 2D would be 25, and would suggest that your mentor was seriously connected... A Relationship would be either 2 or 7 rp, I think. I can still almost see this working as a Relationship, as though dead he is going to be an important crux for the game... But a Relationship also does not allow the extra dice with Circles tests.


I was already thinking of taking a 2D noble affiliation, so all is well. I'll post my character very soon. Tonight (sunday) or tomorrow.

[Melmoth]

I'm back. I'm working on the character right now but soon I'll go to bed. I hope to post my character tomorrow.

[kaomera]

In this thread, (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3890#3890)• GM's who wish to start games should contact me first.

:oops: :shock:

...yeah, I never read the stickies... bad me...

In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing the last two character writeups, and get this ball rolling!

[Tobias]

Tobias ~ I had just considered this: what does your smithing toolkit consist of? I'm thinking you can't just lug around an anvil and forge, but you ought to have access to one (or otherwise the character will be somewhat less fun, eh?). You could take a 5rp (base) Relationship instead, in which case you don't get to keep your tools with you. Alternately (maybe better), I can assume you know a local Smithy who doesn't really particularly like you, but will let you use his shop odd hours in return for doing work for him (and letting him take credit for it too, most likely).

I'm cool with any solution that won't sideline the few skills I have. Do the other players have an opinion?

[Melmoth]

Harkannar Agni, Barbarian

Lifepaths: Born peasant, hunter, foot soldier, vagrant
Age: 21

Wi:B4 Pe:B4 Ag:B4 Sp:B4 Po:B4 Fo:B5

Health: B4
Steel: B4
Refl: B4
MW: B10
Hesitation: 6

Skills:
Hunting B3
Tracking B3
Stealthy B3
Orienteering B2
Bow B3
Axe B3
Shield training B2
Brawling B3
Foraging B3
Firebuilding B2
Read B2

Traits:
Tough as nails

Gear:
Clothes, Shoes, Travelling Kit, Run of the Mill Axe, Run of the Mill leather armour (chest only).

Relationships:
Uncle, southern noble who hates his recently arrived barbarian nephew.

Resources B0

Circles B2

Beliefs:
No offense to my honor or my people shall be left unpunished.
The lunar force will protect us and I shall serve it.
I will not be touched by the corruption of the southern empires.
Instincts:
When fighting always assess for the weakest spot.
When sleeping outdoors keep valuable things next to his body.
In the wilds always move without a sound.

[Melmoth]

oops, I forgot this:

Property: small cottage (instead of a cottage I'd like it to be a couple of rooms in some city building).

[kaomera]

OK, I'm going to go through BITs + Relationships and make sure we're on the same page, here. Once that's done (and I have Leningrad's character), I'll post bits of intro material for you to go over / approve / edit, and once that's done we can start in earnest.

Quick question for all: How much of what's going on do you want to know? Specifically, do you want me to give you the BITs of some of the major players? Since only Melmoth has a Relationship of any kind, he's the only one who gets any large amount of say in any of this, but I'm wondering if you think it would be easier for you to play things knowing that sort of thing, or if you'd rather find out in play... Main reason I mention this is that I have two NPCs I'd like to "introduce" you all to, but that kind of has to wait for Leningrad's character, anyway.

Harkannar Agni
Relationship: Uncle, southern noble who hates his recently arrived barbarian nephew.
OK, anything you want to tell me about this guy, since he's your character's Relationship?
Beliefs: No offense to my honor or my people shall be left unpunished; The lunar force will protect us and I shall serve it; I will not be touched by the corruption of the southern empires.
The first one is good, but I'd like you to work up exactly what slight it was that brought him down into the South (if that is, indeed, why he went). Obviously, he isn't going to want to let any insult pass, but what exactly would he qualify as an offense to his (or his peoples') honor, and would he demand instant satisfaction, be willing to wait, or what?
Likewise, I'd like to see some details of how you want to deal with the second one. As it stands, I would take it that he is likely to face some friction with the Southern religion, and possibly even with the debased forms of Northern (Lunar Force) religion practiced by some of the peasants...
The third one is good, especially as it may make managing him with regards to some of the wheeling and dealing that Leningrad's character is liable to be involved in. I do want there to be some tension there, I don't want it to be a roadblock.
Instincts: When fighting always assess for the weakest spot; When sleeping outdoors keep valuable things next to his body; In the wilds always move without a sound.
The first one needs some editing: right now, taken at face value, he will spend every action in combat Assessing.
The second one is ok, but seems kind of boring.
The third one seems to me to be above and beyond what an Instinct can do. Always trying to move quietly is ok, this says he simply does not make any noise, period.
Trait: Tough as nails
Ouch. Spending six points on this tells me you had your eye on it, but I think I'd kind of rather you didn't take it. For one thing, it leaves you a barbarian instead of a Barbarian, and to me (at least) that seems to cheapen some of your BIT choices... Think about it, please; but if you still want to go with this, I can make it all work out. (For one thing, I'm imagining that the majority of serfs / peasants can trace their ancestry back to the Barbarians, it's mostly the upper-classes and Nobility that are ethnically Southerners.
Marek Tormson
Beliefs: If I can prove myself, the court sorcerer will take me as his apprentice; I will bring those trying to frame me to justice; Hunts are won by advanced planning and patience.
The first one should entail trying to run into the Court Sorcerer as often as possible, so you can have chances to do great things and win his respect.
Second one is very straightforward; first of all I would think you would want to determine who, exactly, is trying to frame you...
Third one seems the weakest of the bunch. I can see him always trying to slow things down, think things through, or wait things out. If someone else in the group was impulsive or rash (by BIT), this would be fantastic, otherwise it seems kind of blah.
Instincts: In the wild, always assess for rare plants or animal tracks; Never haggle with a wizard just accept what is offered; When on the hunt, keep an arrow knocked
First one, I would specify how often to Assess, I think. You could also change it to “always gather / follow”, that might be more interesting.
Second one I do not expect to come up too often, but when it does, it's liable to be a doozy... :twisted:
Third one is good. We'll just need to keep on the same page about when he's “on the hunt” and when he's not... I'm also not sure it's going to generate tons of Artha, but that's ok.
Traits: Blank Stare, Eidetic Memory, Light Sleeper, Agreeable
These are all good, and Eidetic Memory is rather interesting...
Bram Ochtendzoon
Beliefs: I will create a crown that's REALLY fit for a king - but only one worthy of it will ever receive it; It won't be revenge - it will be justice
I like both of these. From the first one I take it that you are interested in getting his Whitesmithing up as fast and as far as possible. I expect that is what he would spend any practice time he might have on. You might also want to get Jeweler (maybe even Lapidary) opened as soon as you get the chance.
The second one, like I said, implies to me that he feels completely jus