Shades of Gray

[Count Zero]

So I am trying to figure out the benefit of Gray and White shades.

I see their benefit in theory and game design. A gray shade is easier to hit that obstacles with.

It narrativist style, Gray shades are legendary. But how does that translate to a benefit.

For example, I have two guys, one with G5 resources and another with B5 resources. Both roll their dice against obstacle 2. Most likely they are both going to make it. I can see the benefit later on with lets say an Ob5. But those will be pretty rare as a whole.

So what does this translate to mechanically out side of a lower target number. A friend of mine who is a mathematician basically stated that if he had a choice between a G2 state or a B5 stat he would take the B5 stat everytime.

The only thing I really see is effectively a G2 is a B18 compared to a B5 rating.

Thanks,

Jonathan

[Kublai]

There's been quite a lot of debates on this very subject. I believe it comes down to this: Grey or White doesn't necessarily equate with Heroic or Supernatural. They're just a mathematical advantage. The legendary effects we expect from these are the province of Traits.

Personally, I believe having Grey and White shades should automatically confer heroic and supernatural traits. If I have Grey speed, I should have an increased speed multiplier trait.

[Redoid]

Don't confuse shades on the PTGS and for stats and skills.

The ability to do legendary things is the ability to overcome very difficult obstacles sometimes, not the ability to routinely succeed at common tasks. That's why you mainly benefit from a lighter shade if you are very competent (high exponent) and confronted to a high obstacle.

For stats, there are some side benefits to a lighter shade, but not for all, like the ability to take two actions per action if you have Gray reflexes.


Of course, G2 isn't as good as B5. But a G2 skill is very likely to reach G4 very quickly anyway, due to the advancement rules.

[luke]

Hi Jonathon,

Your mathematican friend is correct. A G2 ability will generate fewer overal successes than a B5.

However, I think you'll be hard pressed to find an experience BW player who wouldn't KILL to have a G5 Resources over a B5. Kill. With an axe.

If you don't have the Monster Burner, you might consult the probability charts (http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=7) in the Oddbits section.

-L

[Kublai]

That axe would be a Ob3 test to acquire. Probably not gonna happen with a B5 and I am not allowing the Generous rule to be in effect.

[donbaloo]

Then there's the point that a G2 is probably better than a B5 if you're looking down the road in a campaign type situation, right? Given the play time to advance it wouldn't G skill pay off in the end?

[Yagathai]

I actually, surprisingly, agree with Kublai on this one. It's my feeling that a grey shade should sometimes provide a greater advantage that just the mathematic +16% probability.

But there are many who disagree.

[Kublai]

Yagathai, you're my disciple in heresy!

[Yagathai]

Whoa now. Let's not get crazy.

[kaomera]

I think it depends on what type of game (thematically) is being run. There are going to be some games where really Heroic / Mythic feats are going to be appropriate. However, I think that a well-worded Call-On or Rule-Breaking Trait is more appropriate than simply allowing improved mechanical bennies for lighter shades. I'm kind of interested in all this right now, as I am currently reading the Artesia Annual 3 "A Timeline of the Known World" and (not coincidentally) am ruminating on some possibilities for a very interesting "Super-Hero"ish game...

[Drozdal]

For example, I have two guys, one with G5 resources and another with B5 resources. Both roll their dice against obstacle 2. Most likely they are both going to make it. I can see the benefit later on with lets say an Ob5.
Lets leave numbers behind for a momnt and imagine guy with black resources paying with regular coins /currency and also bargaing livestock for the thing that he wants to get, guy with gray would probably bring over some gems, bars of gold or antiques, white? ehh...dunno artifacts and ancient relics?

[Count Zero]

I am currently reading the Artesia Annual 3 "A Timeline of the Known World"

Just out of curiousity... is this a book or something?

[Drozdal]

I am currently reading the Artesia Annual 3 "A Timeline of the Known World"

Just out of curiousity... is this a book or something?

Artesia (http://www.daradja.com/) is a name of the main character in Mark S. Smylie comic book series (same Mark that illustrated first page of the Revised Character Burner).

[Redoid]

[pssst, Kublai, don't rejoice too much of Yagathai's turning to the dark side, as Sith padawan have the nasty habit of killing their master]

Seriously, I am with Kublai on this one. Why? Not because I want games to turn into über-munchkinism, but for the sake of consistency. Having Gray Forte, Reflexes, MW brings added bonus by themselves, Power needs a trait to unlock its power, and some attributes like Will don't changes things more than the +2 bonus common to all gray things.

My rational mind would like a greater consistency, like graying a stat giving the +2 bonus, and opening the opportunity to gain a trait pushing it into the realm of the heroic, like Hands of stone or Lightning speed (which could increase your running modifier, as Kublai as been petitionning for since I know BW at least :p) for a minor expenditure in Artha. Like, say, some Fate points to manifest your heroic nature.

Just a random thought.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

It sounds to me like Grey Steel and Emotional attributes (eg Hatred) doesn't actually mean anything more than you need 3+ instead of 4+ to succeed. Which sounds a bit boring to me.

Has anyone come up with a way to make Greying of these things a bit different when it comes to actually roleplaying and how your character behaves?

Does a character with B3 Hatred act the same as one with G3 Hatred? I'm figuring the latter is more intense, or more brutal berhaps. Grey Faith would be more zealous than Black Faith too.

Grey Steel sounds to me like someone who fears only Grey or White statted opponents.

[Drozdal]

Does a character with B3 Hatred act the same as one with G3 Hatred? I'm figuring the latter is more intense, or more brutal berhaps. Grey Faith would be more zealous than Black Faith too.
This should be left to the player, it's his own right to decide how to roleplay given character. I do not want ever question a player's choice, as not intense enough, or not to brutal, or whatever.
Grey Steel sounds to me like someone who fears only Grey or White statted opponents.Why would you wanted to to that? To give your (fresh and starting) character a huge edge over others. IMHO this kind of character character would be a really boring one to play. Successes on the steel test will tell you who do you fear and who you don't (and Gray dice help a lot in this matter).

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Well this is my problem with the whole Shades thing.

From what I heard before I got BW, the different shades sounded like a distinction between types of entity: gods vs demigod/heroes vs mundane. Gods had white stats, demigods/heroes had grey stats and everything else had black stats. The 2+/3+/4+ success roll was just a side effect of the supernatural nature of the entity. That at least made sense to me. But now that I read the books and see that black shades can be bumped up to grey, it makes that whole distinction a lot more fuzzy.

To me, a monster with Grey stats and Steel shouldn't be fazed by any mere mundane (Black) creatures. Why should it? The greyness of its stats indicates that it's a very powerful creature, and has nothing to fear from the mundane.

Take Hatred for example - switch from B8 to G3. What does that mean? In some other cases, you get more actions, or extra supernatural effects or bonuses... but here it means nothing apparently, other than that the character is rolling less dice and it's easier to succeed on them. That doesn't sound very 'demigodlike' or 'heroic' to me. He's gone from a frothing madman to... what? Is he the same seething cauldron of hate, but with a calmer exterior now? What about White Hatred?

OK, sure, the different shades have different effects on the success chances - but then you have some cases where they add actions, some where they increase skills, some where they have additional effects, and some where they seem to have absolutely no extra effect other than to increase success at all. There is a big range of different effects that shades can have on various aspects of the system.

If going Grey makes a real mechanical difference (ie. the mechanics themselves are actually modified) for stats (greying of related skills), aptitudes (reduces number of tests to learn skills), Will (reduces hesitation), bleeding times (extends bleeding times), IMS (adds to IMS), Mortal Wounds (changes placement on the PTGS circle), and Reflexes (adds actions per volley), then why does it have no extra mechanical effect on Steel, Emotional Attributes, Relationships, Resources etc? These are just as important to the character as the things that are affected.

If Greying other stats changes them, then Greying things like Steel and Emotional attributes should mean something extra too IMO.

[Kublai]

I am on your side, Evil. However, learn this truth. Grey shade does not do anything but offer a mathematical advantage no matter what the books might have led us to believe. Traits make the hero, not shades.

[Drozdal]

DEG I have no idea if You own Monster Burner, but there is an chapter about shades in it. If you got a chance re-read it. Because there it's clearly stated that shades represent creature potential. I refer to it as potential, because everyone still has a chance to fail, but the heroic and supernatural shades have better chance to maximize their success."
If Greying other stats changes them, then Greying things like Steel and Emotional attributes should mean something extra too IMO. As i quoted above it does. I just can't understand, why are you refusing to acknowledge, that by having Target Number of 3+ (gray) your character has a bigger chance os success, than the one with TN of 4+ (mundane). Abzu mentioned several times on this boards, that Burning Wheel is a game of small numbers and difference of 1 die, or 1 TN is a really big deal. Please try to play or run a game and hopefully everything will become much more clearer.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

I am on your side, Evil. However, learn this truth. Grey shade does not do anything but offer a mathematical advantage no matter what the books might have led us to believe. Traits make the hero, not shades.

Well, if that's the case then Greying the stats shouldn't have any of the extra effects that they have, should they.

If you're right, then it should be quite possible for a Black character could kill a Grey or even White opponent - all it requires is that the opponent is unlucky on his dice rolls. But then if that's the case, his opponent isn't particularly 'heroic' or 'supernatural'. You need those extra effects - the extra actions, the instakill vs lower shades, the bonuses etc - for the difference in shade to actually mean "heroic" or "supernatural" at all in practice.

It can't just be a mathematical advantage because that renders the difference largely meaningless in practise. All it does is mean that Grey or White is slightly better than Black (and even then, high Black is actually better than low Grey mathematically because the fact that you're rolling more dice counters the lower chance of success).

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

DEG I have no idea if You own Monster Burner, but there is an chapter about shades in it.

I've got it, and I've read it.

There's two sides to it even there though. On the one hand, there's the probability charts. On the other, there's the fact that the different shades still have different effects beyond the probability charts. The fact that a grey weapon (or a monster with grey Power) instakills an opponent with Black wounds is not because of mathematical advantage, it's because of that extra effect that being Grey has. The fact that a character with Grey Reflexes gets an extra action per action is not because of mathematical advantage either, it's an extra effect. And these extra effects, as it stands, are not present for everything that can be Grey or White.


As i quoted above it does. I just can't understand, why are you refusing to acknowledge, that by having Target Number of 3+ (gray) your character has a bigger chance os success, than the one with TN of 4+ (mundane).

I'm not "refusing to acknowledge" that at all - in fact, I've been quite clear about acknowledging it. But what you quoted above does in no way say anything about the extra effects - beyond just the different probabilities - that being Grey has over being Black. You don't get those extra effects from the fact that you're rolling 3+ instead of 4+ - they're there because the fact that it's not Black changes how the default mechanic works.

Try playing Grey and White as just a different probability of success and remove all the other aspects of it, and I think you're going to end up with a very different game. A G1 Superb dragon bite or G3 Incidental dragon breath would now just do a maximum of 1 or 3 damage with no instakill. G3 reflexes would be no different to B3 reflexes for the purposes of determining number of actions. Grey Forte wouldn't affect bleeding times. And so on. THOSE are really what makes the creature more powerful in practise - sure, the probability advantage makes a bit of a difference, but that alone isn't what allows them to instantly slaughter Black opponents or do several things in one round or take longer to bleed..

[Kublai]

The first step is to disassociate the concept that a higher shade automatically makes one heroic or supernatural. The only mechanical effect is to increase your chances of success.

The next step is to understand that only Grey Relfexes has any sort of special effect intrinsically built into it. Think of it as a free trait given to us allowing to double the number of actions. Having Grey Power doesn't instakill creatures with Black Mortal Wounds because of some special effect. It does it because mathematically, Grey is greater than Black. Look on the PTGS. Imagine a G1 as a B17 and this should be quite clear.

Finally, understand that all other k3wl p0w3rz we associate with the heroic and supernatural can only be gained through traits and are not dependent upon higher shades.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

The first step is to disassociate the concept that a higher shade automatically makes one heroic or supernatural. The only mechanical effect is to increase your chances of success.

Then it shouldn't be explicitly labelled "Heroic" or "Supernatural" in the book, should it. It's the book that introduces the concept that Grey = Heroic and White = Supernatural. If that's wrong, then it shouldn't be explained that way in the book.


The next step is to understand that only Grey Relfexes has any sort of special effect intrinsically built into it. Think of it as a free trait given to us allowing to double the number of actions. Having Grey Power doesn't instakill creatures with Black Mortal Wounds because of some special effect. It does it because mathematically, Grey is greater than Black. Look on the PTGS. Imagine a G1 as a B17 and this should be quite clear.

Except that isn't true. Look at p254-255 of BW if you don't believe me.

- grey/white stats reduces the number of tests needed to learn a skill.
- grey/white Will reduces the Hesitation because you subtract from a lower number (8 for Grey, 7 for White) to calculate it.
- grey/white Forte doubles or triples the bleeding times.
- grey/white Power adds +2 and +3 to IMS for natural weaponry.

These are all extra effects added to the standard rules that you gain just for being grey or white. Sorry, but there's just too many exceptions and extra things there for me to believe that all that changing shade does is give a mathematical advantage, and that I'm just supposed to 'forget' all that other extra stuff.

And that extra stuff itself makes quite the difference to playing a character with grey or white stats. They're additional advantages above and beyond the statistical advantage of rolling 3+ instead of 4+. Heck, as it is I think you get more of a distinct, obvious advantage from those extra abilities than you do from the fact that you're rolling 3+. In fact, one could probably just keep the extra abilities and keep everything rolling at 4+ and Greys and Whites would still wipe the floor with Blacks at everything.

BW253 says "When a character has a lighter shade, it does not mean he IS better. Rather it shows he has the potential to DO better". Well if that's the case, why do the next two pages present rules that are explicitly modified to allow the the character to obviously BE better in many ways when he has a lighter shade? Again, it's contradictory.


Finally, understand that all other k3wl p0w3rz we associate with the heroic and supernatural can only be gained through traits and are not dependent upon higher shades.

This, as I just demonstrated, is obviously incorrect for most of those 'kewl powerz'. The only place where this is true is in the grey/white Power, where you need a trait (Hands of Stone) to do Greyscale damage. The other 'powerz' are a direct result of having that grey or white stat - they've changed the mechanics, and there is no implication that traits are needed to activate those.

It's right there in black and white (no pun intended) in the corebook. If the intent was to have Grey and White as just a statistical advantage, then all those extra effects that having grey/white stats have shouldn't exist. As it is, they do exist and they exist in enough cases that I don't see how you're justified in saying that I "should understand that all it gives is a mathematical advantage" when it quite clearly gives you more than that.


To be honest, this mechanical schizophrenia strikes me as being a flaw in the system. Either different shades should have a purely mathematical effect only in all cases, or different shades should grant extra abilities only in all cases, or different shade should have a mathematical effect AND grant extra abilities in all cases. But instead you have this exception-laden patchwork where you sometimes have extra abilities and sometimes don't, which strikes me as being rather inelegant, inconsistent and confusing.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

OK, it's been pointed out to me that my directness may be rubbing people the wrong way. If so, sorry - I tend to be honest and direct about things and not to beat around the bush. I'll try to rein it in a bit if it's a problem.

It's just that I am getting a little frustrated when I'm seeing a problem here with the Shades and people are telling me to just ignore it or stop thinking about it. My point in the last post was that what Kublai said just doesn't tally with the book at all, for the reasons I stated. So given that, how am I to "understand that things work a certain way" when the book is pretty clear that they don't work like that? And how else am I to interpret the contradictory statements I see, other than as "confusing" or "inconsistent"? So it shouldn't be all that surprising if I think there is a problem in how its explained.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think BW is a good, well-made game with some very impressive mechanics and concepts in it. But I do also think it has a few flaws and problems (as all games do), and that the implementation of Shades is one of those problems.

[donbaloo]

Might as well join in. :twisted:
First off, if you've got questions and you're looking for answers EDG, keep asking. You may not get answers that you're looking for but I don't see how asking questions would personally offend anyone. So what if you're direct? That's the best way to get accurate responses and you've given no indication that your questions are anything but genuine requests for legitimate answers. I've found it frustrating in a few of these threads that folks would take such personal offense at hardnose questioning or the fact that you disagree with them. Agree to disagree and move on for crying out loud. Its responses of that nature that will discourage new folks from expressing their curiosities about the game and understanding it as fully as possible. Anyway, to the topic...

I've read and reread your posts and it seemed like your answering some of your own issues with shades. You've pretty much outlined all of the benefits that the shades provide beyond the simple decrease in target number. So what do still feel like has been cheated in shading? This all started out of Emotional Attributes?

[luke]

To be honest, this mechanical schizophrenia strikes me as being a flaw in the system. Either different shades should have a purely mathematical effect only in all cases, or different shades should grant extra abilities only in all cases, or different shade should have a mathematical effect AND grant extra abilities in all cases. But instead you have this exception-laden patchwork where you sometimes have extra abilities and sometimes don't, which strikes me as being rather inelegant, inconsistent and confusing.

Okee dokee, I'll take a crack at this.

Shades reduce the numbers in circumstances where the shade can't provide another benefit. For example, you never roll your Aptitudes, they are a fixed number, therefore, in order to make the shades mechanically significant in this venue, they grant the 2 or 3 point reduction.

This logic is applied across the board. Gray shade stats provide a bonus in mixed root skills in order to statistically compensate the player. If the character had a Gray shade skill, they'd be generating a lot more successes. So we give 'em a bonus die to acknowledge the mechanically significant (but not quite over the top) shades they have.

Gray shade Will reduces hesitation, because Will is the root of Hesitation and a Gray Will wouldn't otherwise provide a benefit.

Gray Power adds to damage because it wouldn't otherwise provide a bonus to the IMS -- and your Mark result is based off your Power. A long time ago, all Gray Shade Power got Hands of Stone for free, we found that didn't work and restricted it to the current bonuses and traits.

Forte bleeding times, I'll admit, I added because I thought it was cool. I simply liked the idea of Dragons and Giants carrying on with their horrible wounds for inhumanly long times.

Reflexes shades, as well, are a design decision. It's a perk for having three Gray Shade stats. I felt, as we played/developed, that lighter shaded Reflexes should count for something. Having them count the same as B shade just didn't sit right.

So aside from those last two design decisions, the majority of the shade perks are there in order to compensate statistically for areas where a lighter shade is being penalized because it's not going to be rolled.

I hope that helps. And at the very least, I hope you'll acknowledge that just because you don't see the logic behind something, or even if you disagree with it, it is not necessarily flawed, inelegant, or inconsistent.

thanks, off to Origins.
-Luke

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

I've read and reread your posts and it seemed like your answering some of your own issues with shades. You've pretty much outlined all of the benefits that the shades provide beyond the simple decrease in target number. So what do still feel like has been cheated in shading? This all started out of Emotional Attributes?

Well what I initially asked for was ideas for 'extra stuff' for Grey and White Steel and Emotional Attributes (and all the other stats that don't have 'kewl powerz'). Yes, I am well aware that they have different chances of success already - but I want to bring them in line with everything else getting some extra abilities simply for the fact that they aren't a Black shade, because that makes it consistent. (the alternative is to remove all the extra abilities. But then that removes a lot of what makes the creature 'beyond normal').

So far, that list seems to be: Steel, Faith, Greed, Grief, Hatred, and Resources (if applicable in the last case). So, what would Grey or White version of those imply?

As I said, to me Grey Steel could imply that the creature isn't fazed by Black shaded creatures. If you're that much more powerful than they are (or you think you are), then why should you flinch or run when faced by them? So the only time you'd make Steel rolls would be if you faced Grey or White Creatures, because you know they're on the same level as you are. Similarly, White Steel would be unfazed by Grey and Black creatures. Obviously, this is not a trait that you should allow a PC to have in a normal game (unless of course all the PCs are grey).

Or it could mean that you're more hardened than people with Black Steel - maybe the Ob tests could count as being one lower than they are for Black if you're Grey, and two lower if you're White.


The emotional attributes is what I'm a bit stumped on though. It makes sense to me that Grey emotions should be different to Black ones. The 3+ means that you're more likely to succeed with them, which in itself means they're more 'intense' in play. But I think there should be additional effects too. Maybe Grey Hatred is so intense that it poisons the land around you, or can be given physical form somehow. Maybe Grey Faith can allow you to heal with a touch, or not have to pray for certain kinds of miracle because you're so holy. And so on.

[donbaloo]

I see. Well, I have to say that I'm in the camp of those that feel that the shading seems pretty good as is. Abzu's previous explanation also does a good job, in my mind, of explaining away what seem to be discrepancies in the shading of various stats and attributes. I also like to keep in mind that the Target Number decrease is more than just a greater odds of success though, it translates into more rapidly advancing stats and skills when compared with those of darker shades with the exact same amount and kind of training.

I think the one attribute that truly stands out as being really unique with a lighter shade is Reflexes, and I think that's fair since it represents a whole family of lighter shaded stats.

If you really want to discuss making some changes to the stats, attributes, and skills that you feel are being shafted we should probably peel this out of this forum and start it up in It Only Takes a Spark. I'll cap off here with saying that I don't think a Gray Steel should make you feel any tougher or superior to Black shaded opponents. Its your other stats and skills that are going to determine that. To say that someone with a gray shaded steel doesn't fear black shaded opponents is merely saying that we've increased his Foolishness. We're going to have to come up with something else.

Like I said, I like things the way they look now but I'll hash on some ideas with you in a new thread if you want. :D

[donbaloo]

Thought I'd add, in my mind a greater argument could be made for working out some sort of benefit for the various "Training" type skills that are rooted in Grey shaded stats but aren't really supported by shading.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Okee dokee, I'll take a crack at this.

Thank you. :)


Shades reduce the numbers in circumstances where the shade can't provide another benefit. For example, you never roll your Aptitudes, they are a fixed number, therefore, in order to make the shades mechanically significant in this venue, they grant the 2 or 3 point reduction.

Okay....


This logic is applied across the board. Gray shade stats provide a bonus in mixed root skills in order to statistically compensate the player. If the character had a Gray shade skill, they'd be generating a lot more successes. So we give 'em a bonus die to acknowledge the mechanically significant (but not quite over the top) shades they have.

Where's that mentioned in the rules? I couldn't see anything on p255 about getting bonus die for grey/white skills under Heroic/Supernatual skills.


Gray shade Will reduces hesitation, because Will is the root of Hesitation and a Gray Will wouldn't otherwise provide a benefit.

BTW, you realise that the CB workseet doesn't mention how to figure out Hesitation at all? And having Grey Will doesn't seem to imply that you get Grey Steel too, which is a bit odd if you think about it isn't it?


OK. So you're saying that because you roll Steel anyway, you don't get any extra bonuses to it because that's already factored into the 3+ or 2+ on the dice? But you just said that Grey/White stats get bonus die because of their shade (though I don't know where that comes from). So shouldn't Grey/White Steel get that too?


Gray Power adds to damage because it wouldn't otherwise provide a bonus to the IMS -- and your Mark result is based off your Power. A long time ago, all Gray Shade Power got Hands of Stone for free, we found that didn't work and restricted it to the current bonuses and traits.

OK, that makes some degree of sense.


Forte bleeding times, I'll admit, I added because I thought it was cool. I simply liked the idea of Dragons and Giants carrying on with their horrible wounds for inhumanly long times.

Well, Bleeding is based off Forte anyway. So going by your logic, it's not really inconsistent since having a Grey Forte wouldn't do anything to change this otherwise.


Reflexes shades, as well, are a design decision. It's a perk for having three Gray Shade stats. I felt, as we played/developed, that lighter shaded Reflexes should count for something. Having them count the same as B shade just didn't sit right.

OK, that's fair enough.


So aside from those last two design decisions, the majority of the shade perks are there in order to compensate statistically for areas where a lighter shade is being penalized because it's not going to be rolled.

But it's not that it's going to be penalised, it's that it doesn't get a bonus over Black.


I hope that helps. And at the very least, I hope you'll acknowledge that just because you don't see the logic behind something, or even if you disagree with it, it is not necessarily flawed, inelegant, or inconsistent.

Well frankly, it seems that I got this impression because Kublai wasn't explaining it correctly. Now I look back on the thread, Kublai's first post here is clearly just his opinion/belief of why things are the way they are. First he states his belief that Grey/White doesn't equate to Heroic/Supernatural and that any advantages gleaned from them are in the form of Traits - well, the first point is just his opinion, and the second point is only true for Power. And then later he claims that 'the truth' is that they offer nothing more than a statistical advantage and presents this as fact. That was obviously incorrect information, given Luke's explanation. Maybe Kublai was just not explaining things clearly, or maybe he was just plain wrong about it, but I don't think it's really helpful to give inaccurate or ambiguous explanations to people when they have questions about the mechanics - in this case, it confused the hell out of me.

Luke's explanation makes a lot more sense, which is unsurprising given that he wrote the rules in the first place). Now I know the real reasons behind why things are that way, it is no longer inconsistent etc to me. Thank you.


thanks, off to Origins.

Have fun!

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

That said, I am still left with the question of what Grey Emotional Traits and Grey Steel actually MEAN.

If you go from B8 to G3 Steel, what are you getting? A bit of a disadvantage it seems. Looking at the probablility tables (http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/bw_probabilities.pdf) you're actually less likely to succeed 1, 2 or 3 Ob rolls with G3 than you are for B8. You're also much less likely to get the higher obstacle rolls with G3 because to do that you must roll 6s and use the open-ended roll rules. And this is including the fact that 3+ is a success here. Same applies for B9 to G4 and B10 to G5 too. So what advantage do you really get for Greying your steel? Just that you can raise it faster now?

If you have B7 Steel you have a significant chance of not turning into a gibbering wreck when you're in a mass battle (Ob 5) - if you have G2 Steel, then you're going to be in trouble in that situation because it's rather unlikely that you'd get 5 successes on your 2 dice. Unless I'm misundersanding the point of that Ob table on page 125 (and I may be, because it's not entirely clear to me what it's supposed to represent).

If you're looking at an Emotional attribute and you Grey it, then you move further away from the dreaded 10 that removes you from the game. Though my feeling is that this is 'cheating death' somewhat isn't it? If 10 is the limit, then by going from say B8 Hatred to G3 Hatred you're giving yourself a lower Hatred exponent and therefore moving further from the dreaded 10. Not only that, but you're making it easier for you to increase your Hatred because of the 3+. And it means you have less dice to throw if you're doing something like "Summoning Fury". So isn't it actually a BAD thing to Grey your emotional stats?

Again though, maybe I'm wrong here or I'm misinterpreting something. Or maybe I'm not, I dunno. :)

[donbaloo]

Where's that mentioned in the rules? I couldn't see anything on p255 about getting bonus die for grey/white skills under Heroic/Supernatual skills.
Its early on in the book, p. 52 "Shade and New Skills".

And having Grey Will doesn't seem to imply that you get Grey Steel too, which is a bit odd if you think about it isn't it?
I think its properly represented in the hesitation reduction, since Will doesn't really determine your Steel.

OK. So you're saying that because you roll Steel anyway, you don't get any extra bonuses to it because that's already factored into the 3+ or 2+ on the dice? But you just said that Grey/White stats get bonus die because of their shade (though I don't know where that comes from). So shouldn't Grey/White Steel get that too?

I think he was referring to the mixed rooted skills getting bonuses for one of the roots being shaded, since otherwise the skill would not reflect the light shaded stat. Its on the page reference I made above.

If you go from B8 to G3 Steel, what are you getting? A bit of a disadvantage it seems.
Disadvantage if you look at it as purely a reduction in dice rolled yes. But really the change is simply producing a completely different character. Rolled into the concept of the character now is no longer the notion of a steely nerved veteran that's seen it all. Now he's a character that though not very hardened, he has the foundations of becoming something much more unshakeable as he progresses. I think for one shot's and stuff greying out a stat isn't going to give you much character flair or provide any real roleplaying significance. Its the campaign character that's gonna benefit from it.

Though my feeling is that this is 'cheating death' somewhat isn't it? If 10 is the limit, then by going from say B8 Hatred to G3 Hatred you're giving yourself a lower Hatred exponent and therefore moving further from the dreaded 10.

Sure, but its not like these characters are played to "win" anything. If you want to play a frothing mad orc at the brink of self-destruction then you're going to go with the high black Hatred. If you're looking to play an orc who's got it more under control but has a truly smouldering seed of hatred just waiting to grow from within, then you'll gray it out. Its just a matter of which character concept you're looking to play. I've not felt anything very min/maxy about BW yet, it all translates into a wide array of character concepts.

This has been a pretty awesome discussion I think, one that has revealed some of the insides of the design. Really good, thanks for pressing on with it EDG. :)

[Kublai]

If I am not quoting exact text and giving you a page for reference, please add "I BELIEVE" to the beginning of every single sentence I ever write ever.

I still stand by my assertion that most of this stuff that trips you up is mere mathematical advantages. All one needs to know is that Grey adds a +2 bonus and White adds a +3 bonus. Got a Grey 4 Will, that means a Hesitation of 10-4=6-2(Grey)=4. Got a Grey 5 Power and no Hands of Stone trait? Your unnarmed Mark is B7.

[Clay Pigeon]

On the off chance that this guy had a grey weapon and white power, how would they interact? Would he still get a +3, since his power is white and of a different shade than his weapon? Or would he only get +1, the "difference" between grey and white?

[Kublai]

It would be +3 to the exponent. So if he had a G5 Power that went to a W5, his mark would increase from 7 to 8.

[donbaloo]

On the off chance that this guy had a grey weapon and white power, how would they interact? Would he still get a +3, since his power is white and of a different shade than his weapon? Or would he only get +1, the "difference" between grey and white?

Yeah, +3 to the Power for determining the IMS. He's still going to be doing Grey damage since his weapon is Grey. Hey Kublai, do Grey weapons risk shattering by White Power in the same way black weapons do from grey and white power? Or is it only black weapons that suffer it?

[Kublai]

I'd apply the same ruling - if a weapon is of a lower shade than the power wielding it, there's a chance it's gonna shatter. Though, I'd say the chance was much less if the shade of the weapon was grey.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

If I am not quoting exact text and giving you a page for reference, please add "I BELIEVE" to the beginning of every single sentence I ever write ever.

At the same time, please don't be so assertive about things you just aren't sure of in future. Your first post on page 3 was giving me the impression that you knew exactly what you were talking about, when it fact it was just your opinion.

[donbaloo]

I'm assuming that in cases where using a skill or spell and the Obstacle is one of the opponents stats, Will for example, that the Obstacle is increased by the +2 or +3 if it is of lighter shade? Unless it was a versus test and then its just the benefit of the lower Target Number...

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

I still stand by my assertion that most of this stuff that trips you up is mere mathematical advantages. All one needs to know is that Grey adds a +2 bonus and White adds a +3 bonus. Got a Grey 4 Will, that means a Hesitation of 10-4=6-2(Grey)=4. Got a Grey 5 Power and no Hands of Stone trait? Your unnarmed Mark is B7.

Actually, I'm fine with the mathematical advantage. What's 'tripping me up' is converting that into something meaningful in the game setting.

And again, you're incorrect - you insist on seeing it as a purely mathematical thing when it's not. What you say is true for Power and Will (if you rephrase the modification), but not for the rest. Again:

Aptitudes: Grey reduces it by ONE, White reduces by TWO. Not +2 and +3.

Forte/Bleeding: Grey DOUBLES bleeding times, White TRIPLES them. Not +2 and +3.

Mortal Wounds: Grey puts Mortal on Grey track, White puts it on White track. Not +2 and +3.

Reflexes: Grey gives ONE extra action, White gives TWO. Not +2 and +3.


And given what's been said on the Advancement thread I started here, I realise that Luke's logic of adding extra effects should actually hold for Emotional Stats and Steel too. This is beause if you have Grey or White Steel, the same things count as an Advancement test as if you had Black Steel. Luke said that he added extra effects where Shade alone didn't make a difference. Well, Shade alone doesn't make a difference for the purpose of Steel/Emotional advancement either - a mass battle is an Ob 5 test whether you have Grey, Black, or White Steel. That implies to me that an extra effect needs to be included here to make that different.

[Kublai]

I've never considered myself a mathmagician, but all those numbers you just spouted still seem like math to me. Don't be too semantical with me or else I go all HULKy. I really hate semantics.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

I've never considered myself a mathmagician, but all those numbers you just spouted still seem like math to me. Don't be too semantical with me or else I go all HULKy. I really hate semantics.

Well you were implying they were all +2 and +3. They're not.
You were also, at one point, implying that the only advantage was that Grey is 3+ and White is 2+ on the dice. Which again is not true. There IS a statistical advantage, true. But that's only part of it.

Yes, it's all mathematical in the sense that numbers are involved. But the same numbers are not there all the time, and the numbers are not applied in the same way. And those changes ARE going to affect gameplay.

Saying "it's all mathematical" is stating the obvious - of course it's mathematical. That doesn't help us though.

[donbaloo]

Well, Shade alone doesn't make a difference for the purpose of Steel/Emotional advancement either - a mass battle is an Ob 5 test whether you have Grey, Black, or White Steel. That implies to me that an extra effect needs to be included here to make that different.

I have to admit that I've not delved as deeply into the other racial stocks and therefore their emotional skills as much as I have the humans. But from what I recall, I think they're still getting the benefit of the lighter shade. I know Steel does, every time you have to test it in battle or against suprise. So its shade benefit is inherent in its usage.

I thought the emotional skills still had rolls that they made, don't they? Isn't Hatred capable of being tapped for bonus dice to skills, for which you'd be rolling to reach the lighter shade's target on those dice? Same for all of the emotions. And if that wasn't enough you could always count each event from the list of "trigger events" for each emotion as one or two Obstacles higher. Makes for quicker advancement and represents that more potent shade.

As a side note, routine tests do always count for emotional advancement I think. The emotion is always treated as an Exponent 4 or less skill for purposes of logging routine tests.

[donbaloo]

Misled you EDG, routine tests count towards advancement at all exponents only for Greed and Hatred. Still worth noting though. :)