Combat questions (renamed thread)

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

I wasn't sure if I should add to the 'questions from a newbie' thread or just start my own general one instead... maybe it's better for me to just ask all of my further questions on this thread to avoid confusion :)

OK, Combat. I like the look of this. I get the general concepts, but I seem having a problem actually getting how this works in practise and how these actions work against eachother. (Though this may be because I just kept reading the BW book so I could get my head around combat first, rather than start on the Character Burner book...)

So these may be dumb questions that are already answered in the book - if they are then I'm sorry. I think I'm having a bit of information overload and I'm losing track of things...!


1) Are Versus tests only done when one action "is countered by" or "counters" another one? In which case, the one with more successes wins? Or does it just mean that the countered action doesn't happen at all?

2) Disarm is countered by Counterstrike, Block, and Avoid. So what does that actually mean? That either of those three actions will automatically happen and Disarm automatically fails? Or is there a Versus roll involved, and the action with most successes actually happens and the other doesn't? Despite reading the bit at the bottom of page 154 that explains them, I still don't actually get what 'defends against', 'countered by' and 'counters' of each action type actually mean in practise.

3) If I script a Counterstrike and the opponent doesn't script a Strike or Great Strike, what happens? Do I just attack with the dice I set aside for the riposte?

4) Say I script Push and my opponent scripts Strike. These neither counter nor defend against eachother. What happens? Do we make standard tests, and if we both succeed then I Push him but he Strikes me at the same time?

5) Does "Defends against" in practise mean "each success on this defensive action removes one success from the action it's defending against?

6) If an action fails (eg I miss a Strike) do I just Stand and Drool or Hesitate because of the miss, or do I carry on with the next action?

7) When exactly do you make Steel tests in combat? Do we just use the Obstacles table as a guide on page 125? If you're faced by a terrifying opponent, do you have to make a Steel test every time you even want to do anything because you're so scared? I'm assuming that generally, hardened fighters will only take Steel tests when they're REALLY screwed (e.g. their weapon shatters), not whenever anyone waves a sword at them. But if you're not used to combat (e.g. you're a farmer who's been handed a sword and told to get in the way of that Orc over there) then you'd be making Steel tests all the time? I'm also figuring that Steel tests would need to be made for example to go over the top of a trench in World War I though, or to single-handedly attempt to storm a machine gun nest. Am I on the right lines here?

[Angaros]

I'll try and answer these Q's to the best of my ability... let's see what a BW Rules-wise of B3 can accomplish.


1) Are Versus tests only done when one action "is countered by" or "counters" another one? In which case, the one with more successes wins? Or does it just mean that the countered action doesn't happen at all?
Think of versus tests as used when there are competing abilities -- when two persons are in a situation where only one can "win" and where any "natural" obstacles are uninteresting. Armwrestling, a chase, haggling, hide and seek are examples of versus situations. Two persons hitting each other with no regard for defenses (Strike vs Strike) is not a versus situation. Both can "win" and kill each other. At the same time. :)


2) Disarm is countered by Counterstrike, Block, and Avoid. So what does that actually mean? That either of those three actions will automatically happen and Disarm automatically fails? Or is there a Versus roll involved, and the action with most successes actually happens and the other doesn't? Despite reading the bit at the bottom of page 154 that explains them, I still don't actually get what 'defends against', 'countered by' and 'counters' of each action type actually mean in practise.
"Defends against" is only listed for defensive maneuvers. Basically this means that if the opponent has scripted an action that your defensive action doesn't defend against, then you effectively stand and drool. Using Block versus Great Strike is an example of this. Actions that counters another action works against it. Usually this means that the successes of the countering action are withdrawn from those of the countered action. But in some cases, like Feint vs Counterstrike or Block the countering maneuver totally negates the countered action. What counters/countered by actually means for each action is described in the Effects part. If nothing explicit is said, just use knock off the successes generated by the countering action from the countered action. For example if I try to Disarm you with my B4 Axe and you try to Block with your B4 Sword and you achieve 2 successes and I 3, then your result puts me back to 1 success over all.


3) If I script a Counterstrike and the opponent doesn't script a Strike or Great Strike, what happens? Do I just attack with the dice I set aside for the riposte?
Difficult. There has been a lot of CS and Feint discussions over here. On one hand CS is listed as not defending against, say Charge for example. But on the other hand, the ripose is rolled as a standard Strike, which does work against Charge. I'll let the "old wise men"(TM) answer this one.


4) Say I script Push and my opponent scripts Strike. These neither counter nor defend against eachother. What happens? Do we make standard tests, and if we both succeed then I Push him but he Strikes me at the same time?
These are both offensive actions so they won't defend against anything and since they don't counter each other it basically means that they're not trying to achieve (or avoid achieving) the same objective. Both work parallell to each other. You are right in your assessment of what happens.


5) Does "Defends against" in practise mean "each success on this defensive action removes one success from the action it's defending against?
Effectively yes. Think of Defends against as a checklist over which actions you are allowed to use said action against. If the opponent scripts otherwise you're hesitating.


6) If an action fails (eg I miss a Strike) do I just Stand and Drool or Hesitate because of the miss, or do I carry on with the next action?
You just carry on. There's no penalty for failing in combat other than the possibility of your opponent succeeding. Which can be bad enough. ;)


7) When exactly do you make Steel tests in combat? Do we just use the Obstacles table as a guide on page 125? If you're faced by a terrifying opponent, do you have to make a Steel test every time you even want to do anything because you're so scared? I'm assuming that generally, hardened fighters will only take Steel tests when they're REALLY screwed (e.g. their weapon shatters), not whenever anyone waves a sword at them. But if you're not used to combat (e.g. you're a farmer who's been handed a sword and told to get in the way of that Orc over there) then you'd be making Steel tests all the time? I'm also figuring that Steel tests would need to be made for example to go over the top of a trench in World War I though, or to single-handedly attempt to storm a machine gun nest. Am I on the right lines here?
Steel is tested whenever the GM feels the character has encountered or experienced something really unnerving. Startling surprises, explosions, witnessing horrific violence etc. In combat, this mostly boils down to losing dice (= getting a Li or worse wound) or making/seeing people die (especially friends). I wouldn't force a seasoned and multiple war veteran soldier to make a Steel test everytime he saw someone die or get maimed though -- he's seen enough of that to not care. But, this ought to be reflected by a Trait IMO that lowers such Ob:s or allows him to disregard said tests. The table on p.125 is something else. It's not a list of Obstacles to test against -- it's a "free advancement test" table. If you encounter a situation in-game that is on the list, just compare the given Ob with your Steel and write down a advancement test. No dice rolling. For example, walking across a battlefield the day after the battle was fought might be considered an Ob4 Steel test for advancement purposes. It's not interesting to see whether I hesitate for a few heartbeats when playing out this situation (unless we're counting actions) -- instead I just write down an appropriate test (my measly B3 Steel means I just earned a Challenging test).

[Kaare Berg]

Mr. Andersson answered most of your questions well enough.

On your question number three:

3) If I script a Counterstrike and the opponent doesn't script a Strike or Great Strike, what happens? Do I just attack with the dice I set aside for the riposte?

With a counterstrike you are waiting for you opponent to strike, hoping to whack him when he opens himself up. If he doesn't strike, the oppertunity never arises and thus you never get to lash out at him.

Go to the download page and download the revised scripting sheet. It really helps putting things in perspective.

Steel tests depends on your style.

Generally roll steel only when there are events that you judge to be terrifying for the character. Farmer facing bloodthirsty orc, taking a painfull and horrible wound (e.g. loose a die) watching friends die ect.


But if you're not used to combat (e.g. you're a farmer who's been handed a sword and told to get in the way of that Orc over there) then you'd be making Steel tests all the time?

Keep in mind the Let it Ride Rule. If you keep piling on with a steel test each volley the character will eventually fail. It is the law of diminsihing return.

Say you are facing a balrog. Begin by rolling steel. Then (if still alive) as the fight progresses and Gandalf falls down the pit roll again. The balrog whips you with its flame whip and your left arm is burnt to cinders, roll steel.


I'm also figuring that Steel tests would need to be made for example to go over the top of a trench in World War I though, or to single-handedly attempt to storm a machine gun nest. Am I on the right lines here?

This would be a steel advance as described in the range and cover rules.

[luke]

ok. Let's compare the Norway-Sweden Alliance answers with the NYC cheat sheet.

in brief:
1) When an action says it is "countered by" or "counters" something and, in the script, both of those actions are made at the same time, a versus test is made to see who wins that little conflict.

2) When you script a Disarm, test your weapon skill. Your obstacle is equal to your opponent's weapon skill. Successes from your opponent's defensive actions are subtracted from your total before determining whether or not Disarm was successful.

3) If you script Block or Counterstrike and your opponent doesn't give you an attack to deflect, you glare at him across your raised blades. You don't do anything that action.

4) You both act at the same time. Your actions don't counter each other, so both results are valid. One of you is knocked to the ground and the other is killed, for example.

5) Yes. So long as you have it scripted when the action it defends against is scripted.

6) I don't quite understand this one. In Fight! You move from one action to the next so long as you don't fail a Steel test or get incapacitated from a Lock. If you swing and miss, you go to your next action (once everyone else has finished their current action, that is).

7) Steel tests are usually taken at the outset of the fight in the case of surprise or when a character is wounded during the fight. Sometimes extraordinary circumstances -- like your friend just explodes next to you, or you have to go over the top of a trench in order to get clear of a grenade -- call for Steel tests in media res.

Does that help clear things up?
How did the Scandinavians score?
-L

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

OK, thanks, that was useful. I shall digest and return with more.

Should I start new threads about my other questions or post them all on this one? Or would posting them all here make it confusing and not useful for anyone else reading (just thinking about the sticky about useful thread titles)

[luke]

it's ok to start new threads with a new focus. the site's meant to be a living reference guide. keep that in mind as you post.

-L

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

OK. I renamed the thread anyway to something hopefully more useful :)

[donbaloo]

This seems like a good place to tack on a question I've been wondering about. When scripting Strike, does that merely cover an outright strike or can it be used to make a hilt strike as well? Or do you guys actually script "Hilt Strike" when you're going to use it?

[luke]

This seems like a good place to tack on a question I've been wondering about. When scripting Strike, does that merely cover an outright strike or can it be used to make a hilt strike as well? Or do you guys actually script "Hilt Strike" when you're going to use it?

any attack can be made once Strike is scripted. Remember, all we care about is intent with the scripted actions, not task per se. We address task at the moment the player describes his actions.

P: "I Strike!"

GM: "Ok, how?"

P: "With my spear!"

[Kublai]

Well, in the Revision, you really ought to be scripting what weapon you would be striking with as this would effect the Positioning test.

If you were to only use the hilt of the sword in a volley and not the full blade, you'd have to Position with the Shortest category weapon.

If course, if you had a blade strike scripted in this same volley, you'd be able to position with the long blade.