Trying to make a royal mounted warrior...

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

OK, I'm trying out the character burner to see if I can make my D&D character. He's a prince of the realm, a warrior trained in mounted combat, and he's been spending much of his time (before our campaign started) manning the garrisons on the borders, taking part in campaigns to keep the goblins in the mountains in check.

The obvious start would be:

LP1) Born Noble
LP2) Prince of the Blood (til age 16-18?)

but then I get stuck. Obviously the next step is into the Professional Soldier subsetting, but how?

If I try to take Cavalryman, I can't because I have to have had a prior LP to do with horses - Knight, Squire, Groom, or Master of Horses. OK... so I try Knight... but that requires Squire or Cavalryman! And Squire requires Page or any Professional Soldier lifepath.

Seems a bit circular - he can't be a Knight without being a Cavalryman, but he can't be a Cavalryman without being a Knight!

And I can't really see a Prince of the Blood being a Squire or Groom somehow - would they do something that lowly? Or is that something they'd do to learn a bit of humility and following orders? (I mean, modern royals in the UK join the armed forces and are treated like other soldiers). And I want to try to do this in four lifepaths, but it sounds like I'd have to take an extra one (or does the "Born..." not count for that purpose?). I guess I could go for a foot soldier or something and then go to something else, but I need to end up as a mounted warrior here...

Can anyone give me some clues here? Can I just assume that "Prince of the Blood" has something to do with horses (since royals usually muck about on horses anyway)?

[Redoid]

Born... count as a lifepath. So a 4-lifepath character has one born and 3 occupational lifepaths. But that won't prevent you from recreating your character in BW! Even though it's not explicit, Master of Horses isn't a guy who tends to horses in stables. It was the minister in charge of (to make parallel with the Qin Kingdom) ensuring the correct supply of horses to the army. It's not dishounourable for a Prince of the Blood to take this occupation, like the one of constable (which etymology is comes stabuli, king's comrade in charge of the stables)

So, your lifepaths could be:

LP1: Born Noble
LP2: Prince of the Blood
----: Lead to Noble Court
LP3: Master of Horses
----: Lead to Professional Soldier
LP4: Cavalryman

Because, indeed, MoH is related to horses. This character would have learned first to command the army as a whole before being appointed to the confines of the realms where he would have been trained to use weapons "just in case things go wrong..."

You'd get 22+2-20 years, 124 res, +1P, 7 general skill points points, Mark of Privilege, Your Grace, Born to be King, Love of Horses, 1 free trait and 14 skill points to spend between Horse husbandry, Appraisal, Horse-wise, Riding, Mounted Combat, Armour Training, Shield, Weapon, and Haggling.

Alternatively, you could choose:

LP1: Born Noble
LP2: Prince of the Blood
----: Lead to Noble Court
LP3: Constable
----: Lead to Professionnal Soldiers
LP4: Cavalryman

You'd get 20+2-20 years, 134 res, +1M +1P, 7 general skill points, Mark of Privilege, Your Grace, Born to be King, 1 free trait, and 15 skill points to spend between Soldier-wise, Cavarly-wise, Heraldry, Logistics, Riding, Mounted Combat, Armour Training, Shield, Weapon and Haggling.

Oh, and if you don't want to start with an elderly character, don't hesitate to shorten the time he spent as Prince... People at 15 years old were expected to be in charge in the past, and becoming constable at 15 would be perfectly acceptable. Remember the movie Kingdom of Heaven? Baldwin IV was leading the army at the age of 16... and it's one of the few historical facts of the movie :)

[luke]

Born Noble, Page, Squire, Prince of the Blood.

A Squire isn't necessarily a servant or anything. It's a knight without his spurs. Even Black Harry had to earn his spurs.

Add Knight, Cavalryman or Sergeant to taste.

-L

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Thanks! Hmm. This is the problem, sometimes I don't actually know what all these jobs mean (I had no clue what an Atilliator was til I looked up the skill...)!

Basically, the way I've imagined him, he went from the palace to the army. Thinking about it, if it's out on the mountain keeps then being on horseback probably isn't too much use so maybe he started off as a cavalryman somehow and then reverted to a foot soldier by necessity? (and I'm not sure, but would a prince automatically be an officer? Is there a way to simulate that here?)

That said, I kinda like the Constable route you put in there. Can you run by me the differences between a Constable and an MoH? It sounds like a Constable isn't a 'policeman' anyway (which is what I'm used to thinking of it as being).

Or I could do the Page > Squire > Prince option.

Thing is, in practice so far in the game he just hasn't had much opportunity to actually do anything on horseback at all, and the dice have failed him pretty much everytime he's got on a horse (he's got a ride skill of about 8, and he's lost about 6 horses!).

I'm boggled by the number of LP options though. Very cool indeed :).

[luke]

See, the problem with Princes is that, well, they're Princes. They automatically outrank everyone, so they don't need to be an officer in any army.

Typically, Princes made very bad commanders. Because of their rank, they could simply take the reins -- even if they had no military experience.

If you want a mighty and powerful noble warrior, go the standard route: Page, Squire, Knight. Knight is the all purpose destroyer for nobles. Ignoring that path is ignoring probably the best martial path available in the game.

Also, note that you don't need the Prince of the Blood lifepath to be a Prince. Prince of the Blood implies that you're next in line for the crown/throne and that you've lived the coddled/noble lifestyle of the heir to the realm.

A lesser prince can be made by taking the above noted LPs and simply taking the YOUR GRACE LP trait.

-L

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

See, the problem with Princes is that, well, they're Princes. They automatically outrank everyone, so they don't need to be an officer in any army.

This is true :)

If you want a mighty and powerful noble warrior, go the standard route: Page, Squire, Knight. Knight is the all purpose destroyer for nobles. Ignoring that path is ignoring probably the best martial path available in the game.

So Page would be OK for a prince too? (not sure what a Page is either really. I think of pageboys, but that's something different isn't it?)


Also, note that you don't need the Prince of the Blood lifepath to be a Prince. Prince of the Blood implies that you're next in line for the crown/throne and that you've lived the coddled/noble lifestyle of the heir to the realm.

Well, technically he IS next in line for the throne. He has brothers though. And we don't actually know who is the oldest - we were all born in the same year because our Dear Dad had somewhat of a harem (long story - this ain't your usual medieval kingdom!). Either way, our Dear Dad sent us off to be useful and didn't really believe in coddling us (again, a long story that I won't go into here).

A lesser prince can be made by taking the above noted LPs and simply taking the YOUR GRACE LP trait.

That might work in this case... handy thing about the Prince LP is that it's variable length, so we can use that to level out the ages to be the same.

[Redoid]

Basically, the way I've imagined him, he went from the palace to the army. Thinking about it, if it's out on the mountain keeps then being on horseback probably isn't too much use so maybe he started off as a cavalryman somehow and then reverted to a foot soldier by necessity?
(and I'm not sure, but would a prince automatically be an officer? Is there a way to simulate that here?)


That would heavily depend on the genre/time period you're trying to emulate. In real life, you had a period where knighthood was very trendy, so to speak, and royalty was seen on the battlefield. Around the Renaissance era, were firearms became commonplace, the knight was no longer the ultimate weapon it used to be, and with the loss of the prestige of the title, military jobs were left to professionals. So, a prince would no longer be really physically defending the border, and would be a high-ranking officer who would only inspect garrisons and get back to the court.

During the medieval era, on the other hand, even royalty sent their children as page and squire, often to their peers.


That said, I kinda like the Constable route you put in there. Can you run by me the differences between a Constable and an MoH? It sounds like a Constable isn't a 'policeman' anyway (which is what I'm used to thinking of it as being).


Constable in the context of the "noble court setting" is the office known in Britain as Lord High Constable, the supreme commander of the army. It's one of the highest position in the royal court, (7th position in England, 2nd in France, for example), so it fits your idea of "officer" :)

A Master of the Horse (from the latin Magister Equitum, leader of cavalry) office is the officer in charge of maintaining stables and kennel and hounds of the royal house. It's mainly honorary, and a position of power because it was the guy who helped the king to mount on his horse, so it was an opportunity to approach him on a regular basis. But given the set of skills given to this lifepath, I envision him more as a Ministry of Horses in the Chinese empire, an officer responsible of the logistics of buying, breeding and distributing horses to ensure the cavalry had actual mounts when needed. It has to do with horses, but it's not a military position, so switching to cavalryman is strange (that's why I suggested going constable even if it's not clearly labeled as a horse-related lifepath). A MoH is more an accountant than a warrior.


Or I could do the Page > Squire > Prince option.

Thing is, in practice so far in the game he just hasn't had much opportunity to actually do anything on horseback at all, and the dice have failed him pretty much everytime he's got on a horse (he's got a ride skill of about 8, and he's lost about 6 horses!).


Then, why would you want to make him a horseback fighter? If it isn't central to the character theme... Make him a general, barely able to stay on its horse (use one of your general skill points to open the skill) and focus on skills more appropriate, like leadership-related skills.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Well, the basic concept was that he was a mounted warrior, so it is kinda central to the theme. It's just that in practise during the D&D game (remember, this is a conversion from a 2 year campaign) he ended up spending more time on foot (and the evil d20 was traitorous! traitorous I say!). But he still knows his mounted stuff and would still much rather be on a horse and tries to be on horseback whenever he can help it.

Constable might be a bit TOO high a position for him... he definitely wasn't in charge of all the armies. And MoH definitely doesn't sound right for him. (we're not really emulating anything realistic here, this is really a fantasy setting, and the situation is a bit odd too)

Sounds like Page > Squire > Cavalryman (and then maybe > some kind of officer?) might be a good sequence.

[Redoid]

So Page would be OK for a prince too? (not sure what a Page is either really. I think of pageboys, but that's something different isn't it?)


Yes it would. A page is simply an apprentice knight. From 7 to 14, they were expected not to show up on the battlefield, but to "learn by watching" and assist the knight in tending armour, arms, horses, etc. before becoming squires and being given a martial training. It's the normal way of becoming a knight, and in no way dishonouring. Even if they indeed helped the knight to take his bath.

Besides, a royal prince wouldn't be page to Sir John Doe. He would probably "serve" another prince, and wouldn't be subject to menial tasks anyway.


Well, technically he IS next in line for the throne. He has brothers though. And we don't actually know who is the oldest - we were all born in the same year because our Dear Dad had somewhat of a harem (long story - this ain't your usual medieval kingdom!). Either way, our Dear Dad sent us off to be useful and didn't really believe in coddling us (again, a long story that I won't go into here).


Then, taking the Prince of the Blood lifepath is quite inappropriate. Look at the in-game benefits, to determine what it reflects. 2 general skill points, 60 ressources points. A "do you know who I am" trait. What does the character do during his teenager years as PotB? He does nothing formative (2 measly skill points, I guess he wasn't training too hard...) in whatever he wants (wow, that's a formal training)... and he was covered in riches... Not quite fitting with the background you describe... He's sent to defend the country as soon as he can lift a sword? He's functioning as a Knight, with a Your Grace trait. As abzu said.

That might work in this case... handy thing about the Prince LP is that it's variable length, so we can use that to level out the ages to be the same.[/quote]

I suppose you can always insert "blank years" after character LP if this is really necessary....

[Redoid]

Sounds like Page > Squire > Cavalryman (and then maybe > some kind of officer?) might be a good sequence.

Mmmm, given the added background, I would say...

LP1: Born Noble
LP2: Bastard (It's not as dishounourable as you might think, especially in your setting...) or Page, and take that "Your Grace" trait.
LP3: Lord
----: Lead to Professional Soldier
LP3: Captain

Reflecting that he lacked the "proper education for his rank", the bastard lifepath seems appropriate to me. Then he was sent away to a border post, where he was in charge of maintaining an estate (hence the lord lifepath) and commanding a company (hence the captain lifepath).

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

OK, then a Page makes perfect sense. Might even have been a page to his own dad... (which would actually fit in with his the character background actually)

Point taken re: Prince of the Blood. Still getting used to all this...

Sounds like I got something workable then! Thanks!

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Oops, missed this post...

Mmmm, given the added background, I would say...

LP1: Born Noble
LP2: Bastard (It's not as dishounourable as you might think, especially in your setting...) or Page, and take that "Your Grace" trait.
LP3: Lord
----: Lead to Professional Soldier
LP3: Captain

Reflecting that he lacked the "proper education for his rank", the bastard lifepath seems appropriate to me. Then he was sent away to a border post, where he was in charge of maintaining an estate (hence the lord lifepath) and commanding a company (hence the captain lifepath).

Hm. I can see why Bastard might be applicable here - the situation, as I said, is a bit complicated though. He wouldn't be pansying about as a Lord either, he's got no patience for that, it's always been a warrior's life for him.

I did a bit of reading up on Sergeants and Captains, rather interesting that.
http://www.history.navy.mil/trivia/triv4-4c.htm
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Captain#Military_and_Air_Force

Despite the background, this character is definitely more the Sergeant type, not the Captain. Yes, it may be odd, but this is an odd situation :). And definitely not the Knightly sort, he's too rough for that.

So I could get away with doing this as:

Born Noble
Page
Squire
--- lead to Professional Soldier
Cavalryman
Sergeant

I think that would work very nicely. This is great, my character's backstory before the game started has always been a blank until now (we were just told we were playing Princes) and just this exercise alone has fleshed him out more than two years of actual play have! Awesome! :)

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Gah! Buggery! I just found out, we're supposed to be quite young (we were 17-20 at the start of the campaign!!), so that would nix the Cavalryman/Sergeant options :(. Fortunately, I think Page and Squire do still have what I'm after - they've got the mounted combat/riding skills and sword and armour...

Still, it's been very instructive going through this process anyway, even if I can't do the full shebang (would have been a mite powerful at 5 lifepaths too!).

Though one problem I have been finding here is that it's sometimes a pain trying to find specific LPs in the lists as they're not alphabetical within each setting/subsetting. Or is there some logic to their order that I'm not seeing?
(and it took me a while to find the "Captain of the Guard" LP mentioned in the Captain requisites, til I realised it was actually listed as "Guard Captain".

[luke]

LPs are listed in general hierarchical order.

Bastard and Page are the lowest positions in the nobility, Prince of the Blood the highest.

(Kingship/Imperator is deliberately omitted)

-L

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Incidentally, I notice that Page, Squire and Knight at least are in both the Noble setting list and the Noble Court sub-setting. But there are slight differences between them:

Page in the Noble Setting gives 7 points of skills (inlcuding Etiquette), Page in Noble Court doesn't and gives 6 points.

Squire is the same in both, except that in Noble Court it adds Etiquette and also has three traits that the Noble setting version lacks.

Knight is the same but has Sense of Entitlement as a trait in Noble Court

So why are they different? (I guess the question is really "what's the difference between "Noble" and "Noble Court", and why does that mean they learn slightly different things?)

[donbaloo]

I imagine that Noble Court involves all the folks that are involved with the working of the nobility but are not specifically born noble. They are people who have worked their way into esteemed positions within the court or knew the right folks to get them there.

As for the difference in the knight paths I think that a noble knight is just that, someone born within the noble hierarchy and trained to serve and protect his domain. A knight within the noble court would probably be one who is not born noble but has earned his title and land through accomplishment and has been directly rewarded by his lord. I think it feasible that a noble page would have need of etiquette early on as he is of nobility himself. On the contrary, a page in the noble court perhaps would not be so much in contact with the nobility proper but by the time he is a squire he would be directly tending to his knight who is occassionally called upon to attend court functions.

Just a thought.

[luke]

The simple answer is that I wanted to make the LPs different and meaningfully so. The long answer involves some justification. But I'm tired, so it'll have to wait.

-L

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Ok, thanks. Makes some degree of sense :)

Now, having settled on Born Noble > Page > Squire, I find I have three trait points. However I think I'm going to have to fudge a few things to fit the concept.

Mark of Privilege is a required trait for Born Noble, but the other two LPs don't have any. So that leaves me with 2 Trait points.

He's definitely got a sense of Noblesse Oblige and I'd like him to have that somehow (this has come up a lot in the campaign so far - he's got a very strong sense of his duty to protect his realm and those within it). But I think technically he's not supposed to be able to take this.

I suspect he should also have some kind of "your highness" trait, being a prince - but there's no option for that in the book (beyond "Prince of the Blood", which while true doesn't apply here because of the odd situation). That said, I always thought of him as being a bit humble and he's never made a big deal out of his 'royalness' - a bit more of a 'people's Royal" perhaps. Down to Earth, maybe? That might in itself be a trait?

He's also somewhat blunt and direct and honest - possibly subconsciously because of his station, possibly because he isn't the smartest jewel in the crown so to speak. Tactless perhaps. Liable to say things that might get him into trouble.

Plus, he's fairly stubborn.

So I have two trait points and a whole buncha stuff here. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why I need to spent points on Character traits - this is how I'd play the guy, not something that really gives me any rules advantage or disadvantage. I wonder if the tactless, stubborn, and down to earthness work if they're shunted into Instincts though (or maybe beliefs?).

How inflexible are the trait points anyway? Is it firmly balanced and no extra points should be awarded? Or is the idea that the GM can be a bit loose with it so long as there's a good character concept in there?

[luke]

I'd say go for a 2 year Prince of the Blood. Fuck it. Spend those general skill points on something martial. You can always color it as the Princeling has had more pressing duties than those at court.

Also, you're free to create your own character traits. Use the Trait Burner in the Monbu.

-L

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

I'd say go for a 2 year Prince of the Blood. Fuck it. Spend those general skill points on something martial. You can always color it as the Princeling has had more pressing duties than those at court.

Also, you're free to create your own character traits. Use the Trait Burner in the Monbu.
-L

Yeah... I think I'm trying to hard too fit this to the D&D age limit we had. Better to just make something that works that sticks to the concept :). Adding the 2 year PotB trait makes things a lot better. I think I got it all working now though... just gotta do steps 9-12 of charge now!