Simplifying combat?

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

I know this will make Luke and the other BW designers flip, but hear me out :). This is spun off from this thread on rpgnet (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=198788).

It seems to me that one could come up with a reasonable combat system in BW that doesn't involve any/all of scripting, positioning, reach etc, but is more complex than a mere 'bloody versus test'. Yes, it makes things less realistic, but if there's one thing I have trouble handling it's combat systems that have a lot of things to keep track of, and BW seems to have position, actions, hesitation, reach, stance, weapon damage, hit location, armor soak (and armour damage) and I think that's going to be too much for me (and my players, who aren't too keen on combat systems that deal with minutiae) to deal with. My aim in this thread is simply to see if it is possible - from a mechanics perspective - to simplify things, not to stick to realism or to question the designers' intent regarding choices that players make. I'll give the full system a go, but if I or the players don't like it in practise then I want something to fall back on that uses the BW engine, and that isn't a single roll (I know that neither myself nor my players would be satisfied with that). I'm sure there has to be a middle ground somewhere.

There's a good basic hit and damage mechanic in the system already. Someone on the rpgnet thread suggested that we could just assume that everyone is 'counterstriking' by default so they split dice between attack and defence in each action, which might work. Though to be honest I don't have a huge problem with the actions myself, its tracking position and reach that are more an issue I think.

Thor was also saying there that a lot of the character generation was tied into the scripting, but I don't think this is as important as he makes it out to because you'd still have to make the same choices based on the to hit/damage engine that you'd make if you had scripting there.

Positioning/Reach is interesting but it strikes me as being potentially very complex and fiddly, especially if you have more than one person on each side. For example, one could just assume that all melee combat is taking place in the optimum range of the weapons used and leave it at that.

The IMS system can obviously stay as it is. It's just getting to the point where a hit actually connects to the target that I want to try and simplify somewhat.

Has anyone thought more about this sort of approach?

[luke]

moved to Spark because it sounds like you're looking to work up something new.

That said, why don't you just drop the positioning and weapon length mechanics and use the system of scripts, injury and armor?

-L

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

(I was wondering where my thread went for a minute there...!! :) )

Yeah, maybe dropping the positioning and weapon length might simplify things enough, I'm just not sure how it would change things. Could just base things on speed and paces (like D&D does, really) and use miniatures to represent combat instead of using close/maintain/withdraw... I don't really see that BW would suffer much without that. Would you see any obvious problems if we did drop Positioning/Reach?

As I said, we'll try with the full system, but it'd be nice to have a simpler one to fall back on.

[luke]

You're going backwards, actually. Backwards to the dark times of counting paces. You might find this surprising, but the positioning abstractions came out of necessity -- pace counting was too detailed and brought in all of the bad tactical elements that we all hate in our rpgs.

I'd recommend just starting the game off using just the scripting system, injury and wounds. Consider it sparring. Don't worry about where folks are or how long their weapon is. Just give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

At some point, one of your players is going to say, "Jesus! If he sticks me with that that spear again, I'm going to scream! Can I get inside his arm's reach?"

And you're going to smile, and get a little shiver, and say, "Sure... but he's got a weapon length advantage. Test your Speed..."

-L

[Deacon Blues]

You can collapse Positioning and Weapon Length into bonuses for the main tests on each volley.

Instead of a separate Positioning test, give +1D to the fighter with the higher Speed multiplier.

Instead of worrying about degrees of weapon length, just give +1D to the fighter with the longer weapon.

* * *

I should warn you, though: in my experience, it's better to start the players off with all the rules and let them catch up than it is to keep moving the finish line of "Total Rules Mastery" further and further back.

"Okay, you guys seem comfortable now. Time to make you un-comfortable with the following new rules."

So if you take parts out, keep 'em out, or make it very clear to your players when they're coming back.

[stormsweeper]

I admit I'm an old hand at RPG combat, but BW has one of the smoothest systems out there, I've found. The positioning tests are incredibly elegant. Have you tried out the system as-is?

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

I admit I'm an old hand at RPG combat, but BW has one of the smoothest systems out there, I've found. The positioning tests are incredibly elegant. Have you tried out the system as-is?

I'm going to try. I just want something to fall back on :)

[Redoid]

I'd rather keep the positioning and weapon length part, and adopt your proposal of making everyone counterstriking, if you wanted to get rid of major part of the combat mechanism. I find it's a really good way to simplify the part were everyone is moving miniatures in a boardgame like fasion. Which doesn't help the dramatic depiction of the fight... "no, you can't make a cool jump down the stairs and attack this guy in the room, because you're one meter shoft of the staircase with your movement allowance..."

[Kublai]

Sometimes, we play it very freestyle with combat. No scripting, no positioning, no volleys, and just depend on intent. This is usually when a fight isn't very serious or plot altering.

GM: The Bouncer says "no" and takes a swing at you!
Player: Ack! I block!
::rolls dice for skills, rolls armor, note any wounds::
GM: What do you do now?
Player: I strike him!
GM: OK, he's striking again, too!
::rolls dice and figures things out::

In this case, ask the players what action they are going to take and then fairly and objectively reply with what the opponent is doing. Don't throw out Feints if they Block! That's just cheating. Also, reflexes don't really play that big of a deal either. We tend to forget about extra actions a character might have and just go back and forth, one action a piece.

It works fine.

[Angaros]

The Kublai speaks well. I try to restrict all-out scripted detailed combat for really meaningful situations. Bar brawls and the occational fistfight-for-fun among friends are usually solved similarily to what Kublai described. Sometimes, resolving a situation more speedily and with less detail is better for the story. Just as long as the players are in on it it's ok. I usually ask the players if they want to script it out and if they really want to then we do so.

[Count Zero]

I just recently picked up the game and I have to say I really like the scripting system and positioning tests. Having taken martial arts, there is that period of time before blows are exchanged where you move around and try and get the angle on the guy. In fact, there are times when I read it that I would like to have a few more options for positioning. Things like things you do to lead your opponent and such, but that just adds more and I can see why you wouldn't want that.

I do find the scripting of combat a little tedious simply because I am going to be the GM for this and I know I will have to script about 5-10 different guys at once. I may use miniatures/counters simply for showing who is on who, so I can keep track.

One thing I thought about doing to make thing require less writing and erasing was make cards of all the actions and positioning and have players basically lay out those cards face down in front of them. When it is time you revel your cards.

It could be a little tricky to organize, but I think it would be kind of neat. It makes more of a prop for the players to handle. Maybe you could even have instances where they could have a special hand of cards that are used for interupting or something.

At this point I am just going to use the system as is.. I don't have enough experience yet.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

I have to say, the New School Scripting Sheet (http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=53) is really awesome for making things simpler. It's got everything you need right there (though it adds Counter-Disarm and Counter-Lock, which are only mentioned on these forums and aren't in BWrevised).

What I'm going to do is to make some copies of the sheet itself and laminate it. That way, people can just mark down everything they're doing and then wipe it off next round.

[Durgil]

What I'm going to do is to make some copies of the sheet itself and laminate it. That way, people can just mark down everything they're doing and then wipe it off next round.
I haven't had the chance to try it yet, but I've lamenated a few copies and was planing on having the players use dry-erase pens. That way each volley could be erased as it is completed and the players could write in what they are planning on doing that volley in the next exchange. In that way, everyone always has three volleys scripted out in advance. I guess this could screw up counting exchanges though.

[donbaloo]

In all of our practice combats we've used dry erase markers on our laminated scripting sheets. Works like a charm!

[luke]

II do find the scripting of combat a little tedious simply because I am going to be the GM for this and I know I will have to script about 5-10 different guys at once. I may use miniatures/counters simply for showing who is on who, so I can keep track.


Whoa there, tiger. If you toss 10 opponents are your players right off the bat, you're going to have some very upset players cause their characters will be dead or worse.

BW ain't DnD or anything like that as far as martial conflict goes. A 1 to 1 combat is a VERY risky proposition. Much better to outnumber your opponents. Because if you're outnumbered in BW, you're screwed.

But this is a good thing. Because the system allows a lot of room for dramatic choices -- you can actually retreat/fall back/run away and have it mean something, for example -- you don't necessarily have to go toe to toe and slug it out until the last hit point. You're not suppposed to, in fact.

-L

[Angaros]

Being outnumbered doesn't automatically mean death for the PCs. My group went up against a bunch of gargun and not only survived but did very well. The gargun (Hârn's orcs) were of the small and weak kind with little to no armor and not much fighting ability. The PCs were of the larger kind with lots of nice armor, skill and experience. Their greater number meant their morale was high at the beginning but it didn't take much for the small orcs to run screaming. Only the two red orcs (somewhat larger and much tougher) took some effort to fight and they soon realised they didn't stand much chance. About half of the orcs fled the field but even so the PCs side suffered some wounds. Nothing severe though.

The key to handling this fight was to work with simple numbers and scripts. Details were useless to me. I listed significant Exponent and deviations and a couple of skills for each the two NPC templates (white and red orc). This mean 3s with Po 2 and Sp, Pe 5 for the whities and 3s with Po, Fo and Pe 4 for the reds. Skills? 3s for the whities and 4s for the reds. Simple as that. Stick to the simple scripts and throw in some variation. The whities weren't used to combat. Avoid/Strike/Avoid or Strike/Avoid/Strike worked well enough. They ran at second Su or first Li... The reds I gave some more maneuverability and let them experiment more with actions. They also didn't run at first sign of pain.

Even using simple numbers and scripts handling many opponents and proponents were difficult in the beginning. But after a while you get the hang of it and it doesn't take me more than a few seconds to script an NPCs movements now. I'm always the one waiting for my players to finish their scripts. :)

In general though Luke's very right. Picking on someone your own size might be "just" or "fair" but it is also "stupid" and "risky" in BW. Duelists that survive for long deserve lots of respect. For the rest of us, it's ambushes, poisons, traps and dirty tricks that makes us survive. Remember: luck favors the prepared. :)

[Redoid]

In general though Luke's very right.

Yeah, he knows the game well, it's... amazing :P

Picking on someone your own size might be "just" or "fair" but it is also "stupid" and "risky" in BW. Duelists that survive for long deserve lots of respect. For the rest of us, it's ambushes, poisons, traps and dirty tricks that makes us survive. Remember: luck favors the prepared. :)

If you want at some time your PC to mow down lots of mooks, you have several possibilities. First, if they're fighting mook, don't bother to script it out. If they don't know how to fight well, merging several opponents into one bloody test and describing the scene can do the trick. Second, let them all have a lowest stat at 1. After the first light wound, they'll drop or run. After all, conscripts aren't all that motivated anyway, esp. if they feel the characters won't try to kill them if they flee. Third, remember that lovely steel test table page 122? Mooks are conscripts, and it's their first life and death situation, so they must take a steel test, +1D because they are among allies (the fools!) but +1ob because they witness someone killed (roll after the first mook has dropped, when they realize the attackers mean business). Normal people with B3 Will have an Hesitation of 7. Normal people with a Steel of B3, well B4 (let them be drilled a little...) will have an average of 5 actions lost to hesitation when the first of them drop. Those who won't run, will probably die. If your characters can drop one or two opponents each at the beginning of combat, and the remaining ones aren't outnumbering them, they'll have the feeling they have survived impossible odds without you putting them at too much risk. And all this using standard BW rules.