New Fight! action: Run Forrest, RUN!

[Angaros]

Disengage
Neutral Maneuver Tests: Speed +2D
Disengage is a Speed-based Withdraw; it is a positioning test in all respects
Countered by: Close, Withdraw and Maintain count as Natural Defenses against Disengage.
Special Requirements: Disengage is a special action much like Charge. It is a Withdraw maneuver that also costs an action to perform All positioning bonuses except weapon length advantages apply. The character is considered running for his life -- no fending off opponents with his weapon. This action must be the first action in the volley.
Effects: Using the Disengage option, the character turns away from his opponent and starts running as fast as he can. There is only one goal in mind: getting away from danger. Running is simple which is why the character gets +2D to his positioning test, but it also makes other stuff difficult to perform. The character also gets a +2 Ob penalty to all other actions that volley and the next. This is to emphasize that Disengage is a last resort action that you don't use for positioning in a fight, you use it to end a fight by running away. The Ob penalty does not apply to positioning test (except for Charge).

[donbaloo]

I REALLY like this addition to the scripting options and was a little suprised that there wasn't a 'turn tail and flee, all caution to the wind' option on my first read through.

Why do you prefer it to only be allowed as the first action of a volley?

I was also gonna recommend that an opposing Push script should be more potent but I think the +2 Ob for the Disengager would cover that, wouldn't it?

Also, how would it affect things if the individual had the option of a Speed or Steel Disengage?

[Kevin]

I think the "throw all caution to the wind" manuever is "Run Screaming" on a failed Steel check.

Otherwise, wouldn't a rational fighter prefer to Avoid and Withdraw? Much less likely to get knifed in the back that way.

[Kublai]

This is cool. I always felt something like this was needed. As it is, people who are wounded and want to Run Screaming can't for the most part, especially if the attacker is intent upon Closing. The loss of dice is usually too much to overcome. However, I guess this inability to run away leads to the hack fest that victorious armies enjoy when they rout their enemy.

[donbaloo]

I think the "throw all caution to the wind" manuever is "Run Screaming" on a failed Steel check.

Otherwise, wouldn't a rational fighter prefer to Avoid and Withdraw? Much less likely to get knifed in the back that way.
That's why this addition appeals to me I think because I don't feel that "Run Screaming" is properly represented through the current offerings. Even when running and screaming you're still limited to the same withdraw mechanics that the rational fighter would be using, that being your standard positioning mechanics.

And yeah, I think a rational fighter would prefer Avoid and Withdraw...until his cautious attempts at withdrawing were not succeeding and he kept finding himself under assault. Then he may decide "Screw this, I've gotta make an all out break for it if I'm going to get away!". At that point he's decided its better to risk that knife in the back and maybe get away than continue losing positioning tests against an opponent he's found to be superior to him in combat.

[Angaros]

I think the "throw all caution to the wind" manuever is "Run Screaming" on a failed Steel check.

Otherwise, wouldn't a rational fighter prefer to Avoid and Withdraw? Much less likely to get knifed in the back that way.
A failed Steel test resulting in Run Screaming means you've lost your nerve and start running in wild panic. This is *not* done by choice. Even if you, the player, gets to choose which option to use while hesitating this does not mean that the character also had a choice.

The Disengage action is for running away voluntarily (like conscripts do) but not in wild panic. It is not a result of losing your head, it's a result of the character wanting to get the hell out of Dodge. This is not what you do with Avoid and Withdraw -- that's a tactical retreat where the character still tries to control the situation. Disengage isn't about controlling the fight, it's about leaving the fight as quickly as possible.

It should be the first action in a volley for the same reason that you're not allowed to use your weapon length as an advantage when withdrawing -- it's not a tactical retreat, it's running. Fast. And probably not for just a volley. It should be for a few exchanges (or preferrably until you're away from danger).

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Disengage
Effects: Using the Disengage option, the character turns away from his opponent and starts running as fast as he can. There is only one goal in mind: getting away from danger. Running is simple which is why the character gets +2D to his positioning test, but it also makes other stuff difficult to perform. The character also gets a +2 Ob penalty to all other actions that volley and the next. This is to emphasize that Disengage is a last resort action that you don't use for positioning in a fight, you use it to end a fight by running away.

So is the result of this that you merely move out by one range band? Because then that's the same as a Withdraw. Or is the assumption that you will automatically go to outside striking range and the combat is over if this maneuver is successful?

[Angaros]

Just as with withdraw you can move more than one range band away from your enemy. The action allows you to generate more successes on the dice and should secure a retreat. I can't remember if there is a limit (on withdraw) to how many range bands you can move (no books at work :() but Disengage works as Withdraw but with more dice. Perfect if you're slightly wounded for example.

[Clint]

I agree that Disengage (or rather Flee, as disengage sounds measured) be the appropriate action the player scripts in Fight! when a character fails a Steel test and chooses to Run Screaming (except with the additional per-volley speech: "Aaa--"/"--aaa--"/"--aah!") Why not?

[Angaros]

That's just the thing -- it's not a replacement for Run Screaming, it's an active attempt at removing oneself from combat. Getting out of striking distance from enemy. Running away. Not panicking. Not positioning and using terrain and dodging. Running, plain and simple.

When the character loses his nerve (failed Steel test) -- Run Screaming. It's panic. It's wild. It's chaotic. The character is exposed and can often easily be controlled by the adversaries (since he's probably lost at least one die).

When the character wants to make a tactical retreat while still defending and covering his butt -- Withdraw and Avoid/Block. It's controlled. It's (fairly) safe.

When the character needs to get away from his enemies as fast as humanly possible -- Disengage. It's fast but dangerous. Often it will get you away from trouble, but you won't be able to cover your ass while running.

Why would I Disengage instead of Run Screaming? Well to be honest, losing your Steel isn't graceful nor is it safe to bolt without looking where you're running. Besides, you never choose to loose your nerve, but you can choose to flee the field.

Why would I Disengage instead of Withdraw/Avoid? Because it's easier to pull off. Sure, it's more dangerous but if you're in a fight where the odds are against you it's probably better to get away and return later with reinforcements or not return at all. There are lots of situations where staying = dying.

[donbaloo]

Am I missing something in the rules concerning Run Screaming because I see counterpoints being brought against Disengage that compare it to Run Screaming? Run Screaming is merely a style of hesitation induced fleeing but its not a mechanic for getting away from combat. You may have chosen Run Screaming but you've still got to mechanically get away and thats done through standard withdraws in your positioning tests. That's why I think Disengage works wonderfully as a non-panicked outright flee from battle but also serves as the perfect mechanic for exiting melee while Running and Screaming.

[Kublai]

I agree with you, donbaloo. It's perfect for both uses.

[Angaros]

I disagree. You shouldn't get the +2D while Running and Screaming because you've failed a Steel test. This means you have far less control over your faculties than if you perform the Disengage action. I say no bonus for Run Screaming.

[donbaloo]

Well, as I've said, I really dig the new script Angaros, no doubt. Under the magnifying glass though, I don't see any strong reason to disallow Disengage as a possible script for Running and Screaming. Whether you've lost all faculties or not the end result is the same, an all out ass-hauling away from your opponent. The only difference is if you're doing it as a result of a failed hesitation, you're screaming while you run. :) If there's any sort of tactical notion wrapped up in the Disengage then its basically just a withdraw. Besides, if anything I think that Running and Screaming should make one more qualified for the +2D than the person who's maintained their faculties and "thinking about" running. I've seen many folks, myself included, receive at least a +2D on their jump test when walking up on a snake in the woods. :D

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

With Disengage I think I'd basically say "if you win the positioning test, you're out of combat". Screw the faffing around with distance bands - fact is, you're getting out of there and by winning the test you've outpaced your opponent, instantly going to Outside Striking Distance for both sides. After that, it's up to the opponent as to how to handle it - a chase, go to R&C or just let him go?

If the opponent wins the positioning test, then he's blocked you from leaving, and you get the +2 Ob to all other actions that volley and the next.

[Angaros]

I understand what you're saying Donbaloo. The reasons for not allowing the +2D while hesitating are twofold: (1) failing a steel test implies irrational and not the smartest of behaviour -- this means it should be easier to keep within fighting distance of such a person (than if he was acting rationally); and (2) you shouldn't get bonuses from failed steel tests -- you have failed so there should be some sort of "penalty" in the rules. :twisted:

@EDG: Making the step to out of range automatic on a won test is, in my opinion, overwpowering the action. You should still have to make an effort to get away from someone; making disengage that powerful makes it too easy to say "nah, I don't like the odds now, I'm outta here". Combat is deadly and it should be. Don't allow players to take it too lightly by giving them very powerful exit options. Make them think before getting into the fight instead of allowing them to just press Escape.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

@EDG: Making the step to out of range automatic on a won test is, in my opinion, overwpowering the action. You should still have to make an effort to get away from someone; making disengage that powerful makes it too easy to say "nah, I don't like the odds now, I'm outta here". Combat is deadly and it should be. Don't allow players to take it too lightly by giving them very powerful exit options. Make them think before getting into the fight instead of allowing them to just press Escape.

Well there's no real advantage to Disengage then. I can just 'disengage' by scripting Withdraw repeatedly til I'm outside striking distance and then I am free to run like buggery. Disengage may initially allow me to do that more easily (+2D) but also gives me a +2 Ob penalty that applies to the next volley as well instead of the usual +1 Ob Moving Quickly penalty - but I'm still forced to move one range band outwards with Disengage as I am with Withdraw. The difference is that I've used up an action to do it and made my life a lot more difficult if I don't succeed.

It's not like Closing where you have to struggle to force your way close to an opponent. Running away from them is and should be very easy. Turning and running pell-mell away should not be difficult at all, unless they have you surrounded.

It could be more worthwhile if you say that Disengage is a mad backward scramble that allows you to retreat by TWO range bands from your opponent. If that puts you beyond your opponent's striking distance then you're free to run away. If not, then you're still lumbered with the +2 Ob til you can get outside.

[Angaros]

I might remember the rules wrong, but why wouldn't you be able to move more than one range band away with a Disengage or Withdraw? I don't remember such a limit. And the +2D are going to make one hell of a difference if you're slightly wounded.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

I might remember the rules wrong, but why wouldn't you be able to move more than one range band away with a Disengage or Withdraw? I don't remember such a limit. And the +2D are going to make one hell of a difference if you're slightly wounded.

I was assuming one success there. But yes, he can move out two if he wins the positioning test by two successes. But still, that's as true for a Withdraw as it is for a Disengage.

[donbaloo]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from with that Angaros. Still, I like it for what it is, an all out run from battle. So...I may have to steal it and lock in my dungeon for my own personal uses. :twisted:

EDG: I think the disengage is beneficial purely for the 2D bonus it provides. That might be enough to get on the outside when you normally couldn't have won the positioning test. Especially if you're injured. And even if you don't get all the way out, you can have it scripted again and though you're facing a +2Ob the +2D would balance it into regular test. Though I might have to rule that the +2Ob wouldn't apply to the positioning test on a second follow up Disengage if the first was successful, since really you would be building on what you had already acomplished.

[Angaros]

The +2 Ob shouldn't really be that bothersome anyway since you aim to get away from combat. Sure you won't be able to defend yourself as easily as with a Withdraw/Avoid, but then you get the +2D instead that have the potential to get you Out of Reach immediately. And then you don't have to defend yourself at all. If you don't consider 2D to be an advantage then I don't know what to say. Sounds almost like you're looking for some sort of magical action that gives only bonuses but no penalties. Where would that "power" come from? No other action gives you an edge without risking something. That's what Disengage does as well: gives you 2D to run for while risking your neck for a bit.

[luke]

Is it a Neutral Action, Jocke?

Also, can the Defensive/Aggressive stance dice be applied to Disengage? I think they should be able to be.

Jocke, Donbaloo's got a point. Let's clarify: +2 Ob applies to all actions and Charge positioning tests, but not subsequent Disengage actions or Close/Maintain/Withdraw positioning tests.

rock. coolness.
-L

[Angaros]

My description lists it as a Neutral Maneuver. Not so sure about that now. If it remains neutral then positioning dice should stack. If I change it to Neutral then normal stance rules should apply. I don't see how anyone could use such a dashing escape in aggressive stance really.

And yes, the Ob penalty doesn't apply to positioning tests (except Charge as you said). I'll add this in the description.

[quixoteles]

Bowmen, Sorcerers Musketeers and people in the face of dragon breath use it all the time. 'eff your weapon test of speed get in RNC and start the slings, arrows, Whitefire and the Shelling. Not all fights are won by advancing.

[Dwight]

I've used this maneuver, with the twist that it reverts Stance to Neutral in the same way that Charge does. With that change it more mechanically matches the "eject, eject, eject" mechanism that I think it was intended to be. It also doesn't give extra advantage to thwart action for people coming into the fight as Defensive Stance turtles. It also 'feels' authentic in that you are giving up any pretense of disciplined technique that Stances imply (for me).

However while working on the Fight! matrix I noticed something that has never come up in play. Does the opponent get to add their Speed dice to their normal Positioning roll against Disengage? I know "Avoid counters everything" but it just seems so weird for it to work against this, plus the coverage isn't quite as truly blanket as the description implies since you don't actually roll Speed dice against Feint, Counterstrike, Block, or Avoid (in those cases you don't roll at all).

[tarjmov]

This sounds great, but much less safe and easy than a simple Withdraw/Avoid. I do, however, plan on using replacing Run and Scream with Disengage in my campaign. You should have an easier time at getting away when you're terrified.
Also, see my alternative version (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=67648#post67648).