Natural Defenses Pools

[luke]

When I was playing Don's Bound in Darkness game a while back, I had a thought for a tweak on the combat system.

What about using Natural Defenses as an actual die pool rather than just a repeated Versus test against attackers?

In the current set up, if two people Charge you (on the same action), you roll Speed/Natural Defenses to duck each Charge separately.

What I am proposing is if two people Charge you on the same action, you have to divide your Speed/Natural Defenses between the two attackers.

This would stand for any maneuver that gets Nat. Def. against it.

The pool would refresh on the defender's next action.

My reservations about this are: I just don't like die pools that much, and it obviates the need for characters to coordinate attacks and help each other.

thoughts?

[Kublai]

This will only make the game even more deadlier, IMO. :( I think if you combine this with the new wound ideas, then there is no hope for a PC. The game becomes 1 day adventuring, 3 months recovering.

[luke]

This will only make the game even more deadlier, IMO. :( I think if you combine this with the new wound ideas, then there is no hope for a PC. The game becomes 1 day adventuring, 3 months recovering.

I am not going to respond to this comment here because I think it is off topic. you can find my response here: http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1090#1090

I'm not asking about the deadliness of the system. I'm asking about the viability of avoiding 3 separate Charges in one instant with full Speed dice vs using Speed as a Natural Defenses pool for that action. Is it representative? Is it accurate? Is it mechanically viable within the Wheel?

Perhaps you'd like to rephrase your opinion?

[Kublai]

My reservations about this are: I just don't like die pools that much, and it obviates the need for characters to coordinate attacks and help each other.


Fine, d*ck. :)

1) Sorry, but your game is nothing but dice pools. Lots and Lots of dice pools. Perhaps the only time there isn't a dice pool is when I roll the DOF. Does this mean you dislike your own game? I personally love dice pools, otherwise I'd be chuckin' a single d20 around, wouldn't I? 8)

2) I think having characters coordinate and help each other during combat is a great and unique part of BW. One attack roll versus one Nat Def roll - quick and easy. If you do it your way, you'd be removing the need for helping and adding several more dice rolls to combat. One roll by each charger, one roll by the defender versus each charge.

Splitting dice gives the defender no hope against more than one charger. Taking the average B4 for example, against a single charger it is fair odds. Against two charger, it's 2:1 odds, 4 dice against 2. More than that, and rolling the die is completely unecessary. The defender goes down without a prayer, virtually a guarantee.

My problem with seperating the rolls is that it doesn't take into account the chaos of two individuals charging the same target. It isn't the same as a one on one charge. Now, there is the chance that they get into each other's way - this happened all the time in football, for instance. The chargers often bounce off and hamper each other. That is why I liked the helping rules as they are. The odds get better to bring down the target, but it's not like each charger gets a wide and free shot as they would if they were charging alone.

Did I rephrase that to your approval, d*ck? :D

[NiallNai]

I think the current way (to my understanding that you always have full access to your natural defense regardless of the number of attackers) obviates the need for people to help each other in combat. If you have to divide your natural defenses between 3 opponents, then it is more likely that you will need help from your compatriots to extricate yourself from the predicament.

I don't think you have to think about it as a dice pool, since with counterstrike you divide up your dice in the same way that you are suggesting. If you consider that a dice pool, then all skills, stats, and attributes are dice pool <cover ears to protect himself from shouts of "blasphemy">.

As for the deadliness of the game, I think that armor and many of the ob modifiers can go a long way to protecting people if you fight smart. While I'm sometimes leery of not having a fast way to "heal up", I find that it is too easy in many games and the danger of combat isn't there at all.

[NiallNai]

Ahhh, I didn't think of Helping Out in the way of the attackers helping out. I was only thinking of it from the defenders point of view. Not to sound wishy-washy, but in that sense it would make it more dice-y.

[luke]

Did I rephrase that to your approval, d*ck?

yes! Thanks, @$$.

[Kublai]

yes! Thanks, @$$.

Hmm... no smiley face. What does my B4 Netiquette tell me about that? :roll:

[Durgil]

Hmm... no smiley face. What does my B4 Netiquette tell me about that? :roll:No, but you did get the @$$. :lol:

I was an outside linebacker and defensive end in college, and I can attest to what Kublai says about one tackler causing another to miss. Are we talking about an open field tackle, like someone is running away and you're going to reach out or lunge and bring them down? Are there trees, bushes, walls, etc. around that the tacklee can use to their advantage? Maybe abzu's methode would work better if we thought about giving the defender bonus dice for certain terrain or moves. The defender could pick out the opponent that appears to be the clumsiest and then try to juk them into the other opponent. Speed or Agility tests and if the defender wins, they get to use that margin of success against the other opponent.

Just ignore my ramblings if I'm way off base; I still don't feel I have a good grasp of the rules yet. :)

[luke]

hm.

one thought in my defense: i was thinking ND could be allocated AFTER the attacker rolled. Thus if the attacker rolled no successes, you don't have to allocated any dice. Or if he only rolled 1 success, then you might just allocate 1 or two dice and save the rest.

on the other hand, Durgil and Kublai have offered me salient real world examples of why the original system works just fine. Which makes me want to just leave well enough alone.

The current system ain't broken, but I am always looking for ways to tweak/improve it.

As for Helping in these scenarios:
Attackers can help each other (using the Help Out rules from the book and detailed on the site here: http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=98

Defenders are generally on their own as far as helping dice go. Once someone is the brunt of three people's Charges, there's not much to do to help them. Unless, of course, you have something scripted ahead of time like "Yank, Kublai out of the path of the charging troll." Now that would count for helping the defender!


on another note: we had an instance of 5 wargs Charging a troll this past weekend. The helping rules worked brilliantly there. The wargs rolled 5 dice (base Power) plus 4 dice from helping. The troll resisted with his own Power of B8. He was taken right off his feet. Without helping each other, the wolves would have never brought him down.

-abzu

[eruditus]

yeah, I think things work just fine. Splitting your pool would only work if there were significant bonus dice (as Durgil pointed out). And as Kublai mentioned earlier, with the new damage option (Obstacle penalties instead of DN penalties) it would make it ludicrously difficult. natural Defenses in general bug me a little. Its hard for me to elucidate but I will try:

There seems to be no way to get around a Natural Defense other than to help someone else. I am uncertain I like this. Maybe natural Defenses should be double Obstacle Penalties or half die pools or something. Then levying a full pool would get you access to your full pool. Maybe even a flat +2 Ob for a ND which gets negated if you spend an action. I think it is a little TOO easy to avoid certain things and little too difficult to avoid certain things (like intimidation checks).

Ooo, here is an idea...

Instead of making ND a roll make it a Obstacle - like Will is to Intimidation.

[Kublai]

Here is my feeling. Who is doing most of the ND rolls? The PC, right? Well, I like it if the odds slightly favor him. I don't mind that it seems a bit off that he can use his full ND against simultaneous attacks. I think of it as a special quality - a potential for a heroic outcome.

Right now, using B4 as the average, it's an even chance to Get Inside, Charge, or whatever action induces a ND. Even if there are multiple attackers, each one has a fair chance. And the PC has the same chance to use his ND. In this case, it seems perfectly acceptable that the attacker won't succeed unless he has some help, or is lucky with the dice.

The only tweak I would consider would be if simultaneous Charges, Get Insides, or "whatever" automatically became a Helping roll.

[luke]

Instead of making ND a roll make it a Obstacle - like Will is to Intimidation.

Intimidating someone in combat is actually very hard. You happened to see some Orcs in action these weekend, who are both very good at Intimidation and quite vulnerable to it with their Will of 2.

On average someone with a Will of 4 is very hard to Intimidate in 2 actions. You need 4 successes.

If we made Charge Power vs Obstacle = Speed then NO ONE would EVER go down. On average that would be 4 dice needing 4 successes.


The only tweak I would consider would be if simultaneous Charges, Get Insides, or "whatever" automatically became a Helping roll.
This contradicts what you said earlier about chargers getting in each other's way. And how hard is it for the chargers to say, "I'm helping!"? That's all that's required to get helping dice, a simple verbal acknowledgement of what are doing.

We must leave room for the personal choice of the PLAYERS, not the characters.

[eruditus]

Ah, my apologies, my intention was not to have the natural Defense pools be the Obstacle. Rather a number be extrapolated from Stats and Attributes to act as ND Obstacles. Maybe half. Then you could have traits and manuevers that boost these natural defenses. In the mean time a player could spend actions to "help" his ND as well as others help him distract opponents or give 'e a boost.

If its scripted already then you add one die to get a chance to increase the OB to 3 (or two dice if ND stat is over 7).

Additionally, I think it would be cool to figure out helping manuevers that allows others to increase your opponent's obtsacles.

As far as ND being indicative of heroism... I think its counter to the spirit of the game. Everyone has an equal chance (barring expertise) of killing one another. I think Artha is the great hero maker in this regard. I do not really like mechanics that "favor PCs" and I don't see how PC make more ND rolls than NPCs - unless your players are not using those options as much as the bad guys do.

[Kublai]

This contradicts what you said earlier about chargers getting in each other's way.


No it doesn't. It actually supports that I am in favor of one Helping Roll rather than many seperate rolls by making the Helping option the default. And the choice would still there, only it's the choice NOT to help. As it is now, you must choose TO help. See? My tweak would encourage cooperative play.

But I think the rules are fine as is, so I am wasting my breath. Slow day at work. :roll:

[luke]

if help is automatic, then a player doesn't have to think. his character is on autopilot and doesn't need any input from him. this is not the BW system. players must take a very active roll in the fate of their characters. that includes scripting actions and determining if and when help is given.

but this is all sooooo off-topic.
oh well.
when the moderators go off-topic, what can you do?

[eruditus]

Does this mean we do not like my ND fix? :?

[luke]

Does this mean we do not like my ND fix?

mechanically, seems fine. but i though we'd agreed to leave well enough alone on this one?

my only quibbles is that roll-off between attacker and defender is dramatic. and the time we save by reducing the test to a standard rather than vs is lost in trying to factor the obstacle of the test -- dividing, adding traits, complaining, bargaining, etc.

go for it if you want to use it, though. i'm always interested to see how the mutations pan out.

[eruditus]

Yeah, I think I will play with this for a while. The NDs were bothering me. I like the give and take of the system - you block, I strike, etc. but only when its a choice.

Some "natural defenses" are understandable bot not "I strike and I still get my full die pool."

Maybe that's the answer - multiple action penalties to the Natural Defense roll.

[Trayer]

IMO If it ain't broke don't fix it. Wait to do tweaking until people actually complain about it. No offense meant, but I tihnk you're being a little self conscious and nagging yourself too much about tweaking the system. It really works smoothly just the way it is.

[Kublai]

IMO If it ain't broke don't fix it. Wait to do tweaking until people actually complain about it. No offense meant, but I tihnk you're being a little self conscious and nagging yourself too much about tweaking the system. It really works smoothly just the way it is.

"Here! Here!" shouts the dwarf in me. :)

[Durgil]

Though I happen to agree with some aspects of Kublai's earlier posts, I also think that abzu's initial post has some real merit. My knowledge of BW is a little lacking, but in TRoS, when faced with multiple opponents, the character rolls what is called a terrain roll. This just means that the character is attempting to maneuver in such a way as to only have to face a single opponent. It happens the same way in football. A ball carrier is faced by two tackles, and he picks to head towards the one he thinks he's got the best chance of handling or overpowering. Obviously, it harder to do the more opponents you are up against. If the roll fails, TRoS DOES have you split your dice pool. It ain't pretty, but it does simulate the reality of the situation very well. Also, the dice rolled for the terrain roll come from the character's combat pool, which I would argue also makes sense because the more time and energy a person puts into juking his opponents and repositioning himself, the less energy and time he has to make an full attack or active defense.

[eruditus]

Although its annoying that everytime Durgil pipes up he seems to mention TRoS ( ;) just kidding) he has a good point.

Manuevering is SO important in combat, especially when dealing with multiple opponents. I will open up a multiple opponent topic after this...

As for NDs. Here is my issue (and although abzu opened the discussion its been nagging at me as well) -

Four people attack Alpha
Alpha scripts a Block
Opp1 scripts a Strike
Opp2 scripts a Charge
Opp3 scripts a Primal Bark (obviously a Great Wolf)
Opp4 scripts a webbing manuever (obviously a Great Spider)

As the rules state now Alpha gets his full NDs in every situation - he rolls his Block against Opp1, His Speed against Opp2, His Steel against Opp3, and his Power against Opp4

That just doesn't seem right. Helping rules really aren't the answer because then you have to dictate "who gets dice and whose action goes off?" What if everyone wants their action to go off? I think that maybe a bumrush rule or something should be in effect, no? I like the multiple action obstacles rule for this.

[Durgil]

Although its annoying that everytime Durgil pipes up he seems to mention TRoS...You are absolutely right, eruditus, and I appologize. I referenced TRoS again in another post while you wrote your last one, and again just now. I've just been very involved with the rules since early summer of last year, and I really think its combat system kicks ass. Sorry :wink: !

[eruditus]

No apologies necessary, Durgil :)

I was just poking fun (and yes, I laughed when I read the other post :lol:)

I had seen TRoS two origins ago and thought it was slick. In fact, one might guess that if I had picked it up (it lost to a new copy of Lace & Steel which I adore and could run right there and then) then Luke would be less one new flunky ;) Ah, fate is a fickle bitch.

[Kublai]

Four people attack Alpha
Alpha scripts a Block
Opp1 scripts a Strike
Opp2 scripts a Charge
Opp3 scripts a Primal Bark (obviously a Great Wolf)
Opp4 scripts a webbing manuever (obviously a Great Spider)


I see your point, I really do. But if you were to split the ND dice up, there would be no possible chance for Alpha to resist any of those. Is that what you want? That is where I personally draw the line when it comes to "realism" in combat. I want the defender to have at least a chance of succeeding. Full ND against all these attacks at once doesn't give the defender advantage, it just makes the odds fair.

BTW, as a GM, I would be hesitant to allow all those attacks on one target without some major Obstacle modifiers on the attackers' side. I mean, I giant wolf, a giant spider, and two other nasties trying to get dibs on a single guy? Unless, of course, the target was immense or something.

[Durgil]

I would only allow a max of three opponents on one defender for a typical melee, but just for tackling somebody, I'd say six to ten people could attempt that. most would end up on the ground as well, but I'd allow that. I also think that peeling off a couple of dice to try to maneuver so only one opponent can get at you is fair and realistic, but if it's not possible to do that, then it sucks to be them. I'm all for carrying the story a bit, but I'm only going to go so far to save a character from their players’ bad decisions. Maybe getting tackled, restrained, and hauled off to jail is part of the story.

[eruditus]

Full ND against all these attacks at once doesn't give the defender advantage, it just makes the odds fair.


In a game like BW I do not understand the idea of making the odds "fair."

Fair would be one on one. Making the odds fair would mean getting your buddies to help you out against the mob.

By giving them their full ND you make one man armies. Doing this creates two problems:

1) It relieves the necessity of working together. By doing so you remove the impetus for parties, units and even armies. "So, I stand in the doorway of the gate house and volley by volley I kill the entire army." Working together to take an oppenent down is a tried and true mechanism within Burning Wheel that I think is weakened by full ND.

2) Remove the fear of the crowd. One of the things I love about BW, which I say again and again, is people are again afraid of crossbows. Its predicated on the players reacting to situations in a realistic fashion based upon the rules. Crowds should do the same. One guy, even a troll, should fear the mob. Even heroes can be lynched. That's why heroes run and that's why the mob must be talked down. Its a horrifying force that full ND diminish.

Again, all I suggest is Multiple Action obstacle penalties.

The more I think about it the more I like passive and active ND - where ND (half the stat rounded down) is the Obstacle to accomplish something and you can always use an action to roll and add to that obstacle.

[Durgil]

I realize that this thread is about dead, but I've been trying to get a better feel for what the book says about Natural Defenses, and I can't find what Stats or Attributes are supposed to be used to come up with the dice pool. I was thinking that it should be Reflexes, but the beginning of this thread makes it sound like Speed is the correct answer.

If this characteristic is used very often, shouldn't it appear in one of the character sheets?

[eruditus]

its actually whatever makes sense at the time. For breaking locks its Power. For getting someone away from you whose trying to Get Inside its Speed. It is rarely, if ever, Reflexes. I think each action tells what the ND for that action is, no?

[luke]

I realize that this thread is about dead, but I've been trying to get a better feel for what the book says about Natural Defenses, and I can't find what Stats or Attributes are supposed to be used to come up with the dice pool. I was thinking that it should be Reflexes, but the beginning of this thread makes it sound like Speed is the correct answer.

If this characteristic is used very often, shouldn't it appear in one of the character sheets?

As eruditus said, Natural Defenses are relative to the maneuver being defended against. ND are described in detail in the Melee Mechanics section of the BW.

[luke]

Four people attack Alpha
Alpha scripts a Block
Opp1 scripts a Strike
Opp2 scripts a Charge
Opp3 scripts a Primal Bark (obviously a Great Wolf)
Opp4 scripts a webbing manuever (obviously a Great Spider)

As the rules state now Alpha gets his full NDs in every situation - he rolls his Block against Opp1, His Speed against Opp2, His Steel against Opp3, and his Power against Opp4

That just doesn't seem right. Helping rules really aren't the answer because then you have to dictate "who gets dice and whose action goes off?" What if everyone wants their action to go off? I think that maybe a bumrush rule or something should be in effect, no? I like the multiple action obstacles rule for this.

Ok, i have some problems with this example.
first off, each attacking character is doing something completely different to the target Alpha. Each defense is largely its own problem to be solved in its unique way. Only two of the actions are actually acting on Natural Defenses. Assuming that all of the attacks are striking at precisely the same time in a well-planned effort is assuming way too much of the attackers. Assume that they are getting in the way of each other as much as helping and suddenly you have a reason for the defender getting full ND against both. Experienced fighters on this forum will attest to being able to sidestep an overbearing attack while raising a block. As far as having a spider on the inside attempting a "web-lock" maneuver... alpha --unless he is a troll-- is probably dead in the next action or two and the discussion of Ob penalties is probably moot.

If the attacking group wants to really take him off his feet (and they should, especially if he is a troll) then they should script:
opp 1: help 3 with push
opp 2: help 3 with push
opp 3: charge
opp 4: help 3 with push

Suddenly they are all tripping, shoulder-checking, tackling, pushing, and entangling to bring that big Alpha down. Opp 3 will test his Power plus (at least) 3 dice against Alpha's Speed. It is very likely that he'll fall under such pressure. But it is up to the attackers to THINK AHEAD to do this. If he doesn't fall? More power to him! he deserves to stand.

ND are meant to represent the body's natural inclination to stay on its feet and unencumbered. A natural and favorable state. The suggestion of ND pools was to perhaps better handle the phenomenon that eruditus describes.

However, the ND pools seem to bring up a host of questions and problems that seriously diverge from the BW system.
For example:
Having many ND pools, would be confusing and hard to manage. I think this would soon develop into a single ND pool determined by averaging stats and skills (or something). This would make it a lot harder to exploit a character's weaknesses, and would allow one-on-one fighters to just toss their pools into resisting every move attempt...making maneuvers useless.

And the further evolution of this pool system would lead us to the door of The Riddle of Steel (http://www.theriddleofsteel.net). It's a great game. I recommend it. It uses die pools like I suggested, Durgil mentioned and eruditus postulated upon. But it's definitely not BW.

Having ND obstacles would be interesting and might work. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that it would become too easy to Lock, Charge or Get Inside your opponent. The obstacles would be too low.

The main of it comes down to: if you feel your player's character has become overwhelmed by the onslaught of their enemies, give them +1 or +2 Obstacle penalty for the next volley or until they extricate themselves. It's nasty, and they will accuse you of being a cutthroat GM. But it's probably more representative of true combat.

-abzu

[eruditus]

Assume that they are getting in the way of each other as much as helping and suddenly you have a reason for the defender getting full ND against both.


hmmm, apparently I was a fool. I was a fool to make the attackers different races and trying different things distracting from the point.

Focus people. I will repeat : YES, the attackers may get penalties because there are a lot of folk around Alpha. THAT IS NOT THE POINT. And it really isn't relavant to the discussion. Having lots of people attacking you does not make your life easier. All it does is give you opportunity to act accordingly. Opportunity to use that fact which your ONLY DOING if you are really trained! Otherwise the confusion and inability for most people to multitask makes this prospect very difficult.


Experienced fighters on this forum will attest to being able to sidestep an overbearing attack while raising a block.


Considering myself one of them I can attest that this statement could not be more false. Experienced fighters will tell you that unless your trained to do this sort of thing, fighting multiple attackers is a tricky business - ESPECIALLY if they are doing different things. (YES, I know this takes a great deal of planning and organization... now we can move on). This is the whole crux of my argument. Especially since there is no real facing in BW, there has to be some mechanic that makes this process that much more difficult.


If the attacking group wants to really take him off his feet (and they should, especially if he is a troll) then they should script:

Okay, so this is a pet pieve of mine, especially in this conversation, but this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Yeah, and if they wanted to bake bread they would have all brought different ingrediants. So what!? That's not what they wanted to do. My suggestion is start a cool "how to help one another in combat" discussion somewhere else on this forum, not in the ND discussion.



ND are meant to represent the body's natural inclination to stay on its feet and unencumbered. A natural and favorable state. The suggestion of ND pools was to perhaps better handle the phenomenon that eruditus describes.


Ah, finally down to business. I agree on the concept (and I am certain your kicking yourself for starting this thread) but the application does not jive.

So I can getter a better handle on how this would be applied I am going to break this down into simple questions. Please answer as clear and concise as possible:

Give me a simple example of using three different ND: Power, Speed and Agility.