Burning D&D

[thrall]

I played BW for the first time this last Origins, and it was awesome! This is the kind of game that is going in the direction I want to take my roleplaying.

Unfortunately, my players are dead-set on D&D. I've been working on starting a new game in the Eberron setting, and I wouldn't be averse to translating it over to BW. But at least one of my players has absolutely no interest in the game if it isn't D&D, and I've only got 3 people so I don't want to lose him (plus he's my best friend).

So, I'm stuck with D&D, but I'd like to incorporate some of the best ideas from BW if I can and I'd like some advice.

I've been trying to get my players to tell me about what they want the game to be about, what situations, conflicts, and aspects of the setting they're interested in. What do they want out of the game? I keep trying different ways of asking them and suggesting how they build their characters is a direct indicator of the stuff they want in the game. They listen, but I don't think they're completely on board. I think they might be turtling (as someone else here put it) -- most of the suggestions I get are pretty generic, and the basic setup they've given me is they want to be mercenaries. Which I guess is where they want the plot to come from.

Now, not all is lost. Even though they're steeped in D&D, I know they're interested in actual roleplaying and we all just need enough impetus to get going. My main goal with this game is to be that impetus (though I'm a bit worried I'll backslide, let alone them).

Anyway, that was a bit more ranty than I planned. And I hope it isn't really a problem; they'll see the light when we get started, as long as I uphold my end of the game. Crossing my fingers. And I'm focusing on populating the game with people and places that will bring the PCs into relevant conflicts, which should be cool.

The other primary thing I'm trying to bring over from BW is beliefs. Artha sort of comes across as a corollary. Eberron already has "action points" which players can use to get bonuses to their rolls. I plan to make them more like Drama Points from Buffy or artha. Instead of getting them when they level, I'm handing out action points for involving their beliefs (and I am making them come up with beliefs for their D&D characters) and letting them spend them for bonuse and plot effects.

I don't have formal beliefs for the PCs yet, but I thought I'd give you my take on what the players have told me when I asked about their characters' beliefs:

Calli: The Silver Flame (one of Eberron's churches) must be punished for slaughtering my village. I must get more in touch with my feral side (she's a Shifter -- a sort of werewolf halfbreed). One of my family members escaped the slaughter and is hiding in Q'barra (where the game is starting).

Sienna: The Dragonmarked (powerful mercantile) Houses will kill me if they discover I have a Dragonmark. I must get by as a mercenary until I can make a new home.

Changeling: (doesn't have a name yet, he's naturally able to alter his appearance to look like practically anyone) Druidic power is the only way to put my family to rest (they were transformed into abominations). Gender is irrelevant. I must fulfil my master's dying wish to find a certain Druid in Q'barra and learn from him.

I'm pretty much interpreting what I've got into the Belief format I've seen here and in BW. I don't really have a third belief for Sienna at the moment, and when I summarize like this, the other two are looking rather too much the same. I only put in the Changeling's second Belief because the player's mentioned how he doesn't want a gendered character, but I have no idea what effect he wants that to have on the game other than "I can look like anyone I want."

Since I'm just starting out, and I'm having to forge D&D and BW into some sort of unholy alloy ;), I have many questions (as you can see). I'm pretty excited, though, and determined to make this game good. Or at least better than other game's I've run or played in.

[luke]

Let's see, you're on the right track on at least one point.

As you observed, you need to decouple the rewards mechanic from advancement. Experience is separate from artha. But artha must also allow a player to push his character into a place where experience can't go -- gray shades, for example.

2/3s of the artha rewards must be fairly emperical -- play the Belief in such a way and get rewarded. The other third can be subjectively distributed by the GM.

But it's still going to be a hack. And it's going to feel bolted on. But try it and see what happens.

-L

[Kublai]

Two thoughts:

1) Make sure that the characters all have a common belief directly related to your campaign goal. And if you don't have a agreed upon campaign goal, stop what you're doing and discuss it with your players immediately. I also recommend you ask your players to have a belief as to why they are mercenaries. This way, when they play being mercenaries and choose mercenary behaviors over loyalty or other virtues, you can reward them.

2) Instead of graying out skills or stats, epiphanies can add a fat bonus, like +5 or something. Epiphanies can be achieved in the same fashion as a BW epiphany, through use of Artha generated by appropriate use of BITs.

Three thoughts, actually:

3) Besides Beliefs, make sure they have Traits and Instincts, if possible. Traits you will just have to discuss using ideas from the BW rulebook and hand out maybe 5-7 pts worth. Instincts will be harder since they will have to conform to D+D mechanics and not BW ones.

[thrall]

Two thoughts:

1) Make sure that the characters all have a common belief directly related to your campaign goal. And if you don't have a agreed upon campaign goal, stop what you're doing and discuss it with your players immediately. I also recommend you ask your players to have a belief as to why they are mercenaries. This way, when they play being mercenaries and choose mercenary behaviors over loyalty or other virtues, you can reward them.

This is the kind of thing I was afraid I was missing. We haven't had a campaign goal since we've been thinking of this as an ongoing campaign and I wanted plots to be more player-motivated than standard D&D. It seems like a campaign goal should be about a story arc ("Restore peace," or "Found a new village" or "Eliminate corruption"), which would imply an "ending." Have I got that right, or am I still thinking in D&D terms too much? Of course, after the ending, we could all sit around and come up with a new goal for the same characters, or one could just fall out of the events leading up to the ending...

Their reasoning about being mercenaries is very meta: they want a reason to adventure together and it is a convenient way to bring in new PCs if necessary. I'll have to ask them why their characters are interested in being mercenaries, and I'm thinking "It's a way to get by" won't be an acceptable reason.

They already think I'm being overly demanding when it comes to character creation, asking for beliefs and group character creation (though they've already got concrete character ideas, I'd like to get some cross-polination going), but all I'm trying to do is shift us to an alternate paradigm, darn it!


3) Besides Beliefs, make sure they have Traits and Instincts, if possible. Traits you will just have to discuss using ideas from the BW rulebook and hand out maybe 5-7 pts worth. Instincts will be harder since they will have to conform to D+D mechanics and not BW ones.

The only reason I'm leery of doing this is I don't want my players to think I'm forcing BW on them when they want to play D&D. In the context of fleshing out their character's background (which they've already got in a general way, at least) and personality, I could probably fit this in informally.

And it is going to be a hack. But if they like it, I can bolt on more, and maybe they'll decide they'd rather be playing the game I'm getting this stuff from than playing D&D :D

[Kublai]

Of course, after the ending, we could all sit around and come up with a new goal for the same characters, or one could just fall out of the events leading up to the ending...

This is exactly what should happen. I played for years with a single character that participated in many, many campaigns. All of the campaigns organically spawned from previous ones.


Their reasoning about being mercenaries is very meta: they want a reason to adventure together and it is a convenient way to bring in new PCs if necessary.

The old "you meet in a tavern" approach is about the worst way to keep characters motivated to stay and work together. Being mercenaries together is about one step up from this. Without a common goal, things break down and sometimes there seems to be no story-related reason that the characters are together. Don't be afraid to make this a priority with your players. It's not even a matter of system, really.

[donbaloo]

This is going to be tough for you thrall, I've fought the same battle from the same direction: D&D-->BW. I've recently posted in this forum concerning the Rejection of Player Authorship (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1756). I think ultimately this is the wrestling match that you're dealing with. I've considered doing a hodgepodge like the one you're talking about, porting over Beliefs and Instincts and tying them to mechanical d20 bonuses, overhauling the D&D skill system advancement with BW's (tying HP advancement to a relative combat skill), and using the Linked Tests and Let it Ride rules. D&D already provides helping rules.

This would provide a babystep towards Burning Wheel but I still think the system is going to break when I try to impress upon them the notion of a player driven approach. Not all of them, but one or two. If you try to objectively judge your players' ultimate gaming priorities you'll be able to better decide whether Burning Wheel is going to work for them. If they're there to run a tactical game with miniatures, crunching numbers and dealing out damage to baddies then I think the spirit of Burning Wheel will be lost upon them regardless of whether they're actually playing Burning Wheel or [D&D]Burning Wheel. If they really want to sit down to create a good story together then either may work. But there's the problem I was aiming at in my post, if they continue to show aversion to Burning Wheel's style is it because their priorities are truly different or because they're just not comfortable yet with that style?

I know I've said nothing in the way of helping you, but I don't know exactly how adamantly they're against those aspects of Burning Wheel you want to introduce. I mean, are they outspoken about not wanting to create Beliefs and Instincts? Have you even broached the topic of the game potentially being more player driven than GM driven? Maybe we can work through this... :wink:

[thrall]

I think I'm getting mixed messages from my players. On the one hand, I know they'd enjoy more interesting NPCs and cool plots. On the other hand, the thing that gets Callie's player excited is mechanics: he sees a new Feat or Prestige Class and wants to make a character to fit that. But he comes up with involved backstory, and his homebrew D&D setting has many detailed aspects and histories.

Sienna's player likes quirky NPCs and seeing what happens to them. And in her spare time, she rolls up 12th level characters. She's got a whole notebook of them.

The Changeling's player is reserved; I don't really know what gets him excited about roleplaying, and I don't get to talk to him as often as the other two, unfortunately. In our current game, he plays a mongol-style halfling but the game environment isn't very conducive to roleplaying, so not much of that actually comes out (though he does a nice Russian accent...).

I suspect my main obstacle is turtling. I pressed Sienna's player about coming up with reasons for being a mercenary that will get her invested in the character and game. She responded, "But I don't know how to do that!"

And I'm at a loss of how to teach her, because I'm trying to expand myself in that direction, too. I've asked lots of questions about what would be cool, tried to make suggestions without seeming to make them GM Suggestions (tm), asked what their favorite RPing experiences were, what they like about the setting, what fictional character they'd most like to see as an NPC, etc. etc.

Mostly, I get "I don't know" or "I'll have to think about that." It is a hard thing, trying to open up players to something new like this. I am pretty sure they'd enjoy it if we did, though.

Maybe I should present them with an example? Something different enough that they won't think they should copy it straight up...?

[donbaloo]

You and I are in pretty similar boats amigo.
:points at his boat:
See, very similar. :)

It looks like your players are very much into the mechanical aspects of roleplaying, that's their style. And D&D does an awesome job of filling that role with lots of colorful PrCs, feats, skills, and a bevy of tactical combat options. If that's truly what provides them they're gaming enjoyment then I'm not sure any amount of explaining or examples will convince them that Burning Wheel's style is more fun. I mean, you could run Burning Wheel as a purely mechanical system but you'd lose that spark that makes it "Burning". You could just use D&D instead. But since you've got at least one other player that enjoys creating his own stuff and fluffing up backstories, you may have hope.

Try this with them, as an exercise, have them create (or recreate their current characters) purely by narrative. Using numbers is illegal for this exercise and in the creation narrative have them unquestionably tie the character to the campaign world around them. Provide them an example. You can make one or rogue one of the characters posted up on the Wheel of Life. Take away everything but the Beliefs and Instincts. Present that to them as a Burning Wheel character (or a D&D v.thrall character). When they gawk and say that its unplayable because there's no numbers, you present the second sheet that you printed out which has all the stats on it. Explain that numbers are merely here so the character can do the things that are on the first sheet. That without the first sheet, the character is lifeless. Ask them if they could create a character in the manner of the first sheet.

I definately think an example of some kind is a good start. As you know, the path you're trying to lead them down is a path that they've never even noticed before so it can be hard to get them started. Illuminating their way with a good example will help.

You're asking all the right questions in your nudging of them. I used the same ones, especially, "What particular moments in past games are the most memorable to you? What made those moments really cool? What do you most want to see your character do?" And that started the process in the right direction. It is very slow though. Here's a tip, when you've got folks that are really fighting this process with "I don't know how to do that", make sure you accept anything they put forth. If they finally manage to put a Belief idea across, however weak or unfitting you think it may be, accept it. Take their idea and make it work. They've done the hard part for them by spitting it out, so you take it and quickly make it work. You follow with, "Does that sound good?" The next couple of Beliefs, though perhaps shaky, will come relatively quickly.

A lot of this I really think is just them believing that they can't do these things because they never have. If you're quick to applaud their first idea that comes wobbling out, and polish it for them, the level of confidence is almost visible when they move on to the next Belief. That worked for one of mine. I'm not saying that they're neccessarily going to enjoy the style of game more, but they'll get the hang of putting forth their own ideas to get things moving.

If you come up with things as you go that seem to help, I'd love for you to share them.

[thrall]

I agree, donbaloo, we seem to be in very similar boats. In fact, the discussion in your thread is partly why I'm so confident that if I can just get them to play the game this way, they'll latch on and never let go :D

That's an awesome suggestion about how to demonstrate beliefs; we're doing character creation on Sunday, and I think I'll try that then. Maybe with a fictional character they're all familiar with...

I've tried to encourage all their suggestions, but I'm afraid that all my polishings are coming across as "Your idea isn't good enough." I hope I'm just being paranoid about that, though.

[thrall]

Well, we had character creation on Sunday, and it's fair to say it was a disaster. We didn't even get to the D&D part (which is probably part of the problem...).

It started off well enough, when I began by asking them to think of ideas for a campaign goal. After some nudging, we had four goals on the board: Form a mercenary company, Forge peace with the Lizardfolk (who are taking a sort of Native American in the Wild West role in my game), Expedition to the Obsidian City (long journey, cool ancient city at the end), Take over the town.

They chose the mercenary company, and I tried to say "Okay, that wouldn't have been my first choice, but I can work with that" and it came out more "I don't think this idea is good enough." Darn it.

So, we move on to Beliefs, and Xo's player (the Changeling has a name -- I just forgot it previously) put down a couple. Unfortunately, I don't have them with me, but I said the first one was great, and the second wasn't quite there. And I tried to give out the examples -- both the Beliefs I made for my current D&D character (see http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1799 ) and a bunch I got from Paka's one-shots (the Orcish scouting party and the thieves' "one last heist" ones).

Unfortunately, at this point, Xo's player declared "This is no longer fun, it's work," packed up and left. Which sort of came out of nowhere, but I talked with my other two players later and they said they were beginning to feel the same way.

I'm trying to keep my hopes up, but I no longer think these people want the same things I want from roleplaying. My enthusiasm took a major blow, there.

The only think I can think of to do is back off the Beliefs & player-motivation -- in which case, I'm pretty sure the game will backslide into standard D&D tropes. And I really don't want to play in that kind of game.

I think I need new players. What do you think?

[Kublai]

New players is always a good thing, even though you might still game with the old ones on the side. If they aren't ready for something new, that's not your problem. Don't let them hold you back from new experiences.

The fact that they didn't even try is hella lame. They sound like whiney bitches to me! Especially that jerk-faced cock who up and left the table! He was probably really sore he wasn't killing things and taking their stuff! :twisted:

(Haha! I love being able to tell off people I don't know! God bless the internet)

[thrall]

Maybe I'll run them through a one-shot some time; there is a chance that could show them what they are missing ;)

[ChrisG]

Re: the guy who up and left. If you think it's worth playing with him (maybe he was having a bad night, etc), you could try explaining to him that when the DM is the only one coming up with the campaign goals, then it's work for you, not fun. So what you want to do is get their help, so that you don't feel like packing up and walking away from the table. Basically make that selfish bugger realize that you're feeling the same way every single time you game. But you don't walk off, you stick it out.

The other thing is that I really believe that you can't sneak up on people with a new style of play like Beliefs. It'd be like usually playing non-contact hockey with a group of guys, and then showing up one day with a bunch of pads and helmets and telling them to wear 'em... with the implication being that you're going to start throwing cross-checks.

It sounds to me like they were struggling to come up with Beliefs, and when you shot them down, they were sorta out of gas. Next time, you might try telling them how these Beliefs are going to benefit them, particularly the guy who is really into mechanics. If you can show him how to make a Belief that can get invoked all the time, he might see it not as work, but as a new way to pump up his character. Also, you might just start with one Belief, since from reading these forums, sounds like writing good Beliefs is challenging for everyone outside of BWHQ.

Uh, I haven't played BW though, so take this with a slab of salt.

[donbaloo]

Bummer thrall, but hey, no surprise right? We knew this was going to be a challenge all along. Different folks will give you different opinions on your players and their reactions. I don't necessarily think their reaction was over the top. People game for various reasons and there are certain aspects of gaming that they may not dig. My gut reaction to your post was exactly the same as Chris Geisel's, that its always work to be the DM and that you should point that out to him. And it is work, but you know what, not everyone likes to DM. You DM because you enjoy it or because the hassle is worth the reward of playing, which you may otherwise not have the opportunity to do if no one else is willing to run the game. Some people will never do it and if their only option for playing was to DM, they wouldn't play. Because it crosses the threshhold of enjoyment for them. Same goes for your player. If having to put that much effort into their character is unenjoyable for them, then they're not going to do it. And who are we to fault that? You said that the others sort of gave you the same feeling, though not as explicit as the one that left. Looks like everyone is not digging it.

All is not lost yet though. I'm going to throw in with the previous suggestion of running a game for them with pregenerated characters. That way, they have to do no work and use no creative power for character gen. Maybe once they're playing they'll start to enjoy it more and see where all that character generating effort can lead them. Although I have the feeling that if they're having trouble putting forth the creative effort in character generation they're not going to enjoy the player driven gaming approach that BW offers either. Just a hunch.

All that said, maybe you could find some other gamers like these folks suggest. But if you're like me, you game with these folks because they're close friends and hanging out with them is more important than "finding that perfect roleplaying experience" for yourself. If my group ultimately balks at every BW attempt I try, I'll go to something else. No biggy.

Definately try the pregen route before you give up.

[ChrisG]

Very sound advice.

[thrall]

Thanks for the advice, Chris and donbaloo. I think the hockey analogy hits it right on the head -- I can definitely see where I didn't make clear that Beliefs weren't just fluff but have a very real reward mechanic that comes with them. I think I'll try to explain that to them, and if I get any sort of excitement, I'll keep trying to get this game going.

It has to be excitement, though; I'm too burned out on trying to explain all this to run a game with players who are just playing along because the "GM says so" (which is contrary to the very concept of player-motivation I'm trying to push, here).

And yeah, I game with these folks for the social interaction. In fact, it takes at least an hour just to get our current game (which is run by Callie's player) started every week because we're all talking and joking and messing around. As someone said on RPG.net, its 20 minutes of fun in 4 hours, and lately, my 20 minutes have been 90% social rather than roleplaying :( .

Ah, but this thread isn't about my problems with my current game, it's about my new game. I'll let you all know how the second round of chargen goes, and the one-shot when it happens.

Thanks again for your help!