Magic System Flaws?

[Fifth]

I'm going to be starting a campaign soon, and one of my players is a Sorceror. He has 3 life paths (born noble, sorceror's apprentice, sorceror), and skills of sorcery 6 and summoning 4.

Are there any balance issues with the magic or summoning systems a new DM should know about?

Is sorcery 6 too high for a 3 lifepath character?

How likely is he to mess up his spells or summonings?

[Kublai]

Is 6 too high? Probably, but at what cost did it get that high? Does he have any other skills? If not, then that's where the real pain will be. And what are the Stats like? If the Will or Forte is low, then that high Sorcery won't matter much because he wouldn't be able to use it so often without losing dice... or worse.

I'd like to hear more about the character's history. If the character has devoted his entire young life to becoming a mage, maybe he's a prodigy or something.

Make sure the players's understanding of the Exponents reflects his image of the character. A 6 means an highly-skilled master. Raising that skill is very difficult! A 3 or 4 would be apprentice level, with more chances of raising the skill. If he equates fun with growth, than trim the skill back to a 4 or so. If he equates fun with crushing power, than let the 6 stand.

[Kublai]

I don't know what the resources pts are for those 3 LPs either, but if he wants to summon safely and have an arsenal of spells, I can't imagine it will be easy - unless he doesn't take any gear and contacts.

Make sure he understands Abstractions, too. They are a fantastic addition to the game. But, you need several to be useful and that eats up resources.

I suspect his character will be balanced, but I sure would love to see him posted!

[Fifth]

Stu's character:

Name = ???

??? is the bastard son of [some king]'s court mage. His father has not acknowledged him to the court, but payed for his education once he saw his son's powerfull magic potential. ??? was born with eidetic memory. ???'s appearence has not yet been described.

??? grew up in the royal court of [some king]. He spent most of his time wandering the castle he grew up in - because he was not noble, he received no court education. At 8 years old, his father apprenticed him to a sorceror in [some other city]. ???'s eidetic memory made it unnesessarry to study more than a few minutes each day, so he generally slacked off without paying enough attention to his studies to actually fully understand what he learned. His master saw his behavior as lazy, and spent much of his teaching time beating ???.

After a few years of training, ??? left his master for [some small coastal city], where he spent his time in seclusion studying the art of summoning.


???

Perception B3
Will B6
Agility B5
Speed B4
Power B3
Forte B4

Skills

Read 3 (3)
Sorcery 6 (4)
Scribe 1 (1)
Symbology 1 (1)
Research 2 (2)
Enchanting 4 (4)
Summoning 4 (4)
Demonology 1 (1)
Staff 3 (2)

Traits

Skulking
Eidetic Memory
Lost

Other Stuff

Health 5
Reflexes 5
Mortal Wound 9
Steel 4

Possessions

Plated Leather Armor
Traveling Clothes
Sturdy Staff
Clothes
Fancy Clothes

Contacts

Dad (Important Court Mage)
Teacher (Minor Contact)

Spells

The Fear
Fire Breath
White Fire
Turn Aside the Blade
Shards

Possessions and spells will probably change once he sees the summoning chapter, he should have an extra die of physical which he's not using 'cuz it doesn't really fit his character.

[luke]

Hey Dave, thanks for posting the sorcerer character!

This character is flawed in a couple of ways, not to mention it's just a plain old munchkin character. White Fire, Fear, TAB, and Fire Breath? This guy is designed to do one thing and one thing only, kill people. He's so otherwise incompetent in the rest of his life, that he literally has to be fed with a spoon and lead on a leash to the battle.

Sorry for being harsh. But Stu is trying to pull a fast one you, good sir game master. He's going to obliterate any foe you put in front of him in about a second, and then be incredibly bored for the other 4 hours of the session because his character can't do anything else. This ain't fair to you as a gm or the other players, and I don't take kindly to players treating my gms like they're chew toys.


Anyway, the first real problem with this character is that he can't actually cast spells within the purview of the BW rules. To do so he requires the Gifted trait. This eats up all 5 of his trait points. Which is a shame because his traits are cool, but a small sacrifice for the power granted by being able to cast spells and summon spirits.

So you trade your traits around and now he can cast spells. No problem.

His Reflexes should be 4, not 5. (3+5+4)/3.

And a Sorcerer with a Perception of B3 is quite suspect. His teachers must have been
very patient--since it took him 7 years just to learn the basics of sorcery (Aptitude of 7 for Perception-based skills like Sorcery. Sorcery is a year long practice cycle.) And his other skills...::sigh:: Again, patient and forgiving teachers, since he can barely write his name, doesn't know a demon from a black fly, and knows just enough symbology to be absolutely certain he's right all the time.

And he should take that physical point. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth in BW.

Now let's look at his spells/resources. In addition to his munchkin spell list, he's got a Staff and Plated Leather Armor in there. Why? Give me one conceivable reason why a man who can conjure power unfathomable, call upon the aid of lightning, and is immune to mortal weapons--WHY would HE EVEN BOTHER? There is no good reason. None. Stu's trying to pull a fast one on you again.

But Stu's shooting himself in the foot. He wants to be a summoner and sorcerer. He needs summoning spells, otherwise he may only draw circles for protection. But even the Circination tools/materials cost RPs. After he reads Summoning, i suspect he's going to have to retool his RPs to suit his new tastes.

Stu, if you're out there, you have my apologies for being harsh. But you should know better!

So come on, think about this guy. Really think. What was his education truly like? Was it abusive? Perhaps it was actually too hard for him! (Hence his B3 Perception). If he "slacked off at his studies," likely he wouldn't be a master sorcerer--an art that requires intense study and years of research. And what exactly did his masters teach him? What spells did they know? What spells did they pass on? This isn't the same as what Stu wants.

What was his relationship with his father? Does he resent him for sending him away? Does he want to prove himself to his father? Does he want to reveal his father to the court? Does he want revenge? To challenge his father to a sorcery duel? Or perhaps intrigue against him, turning the ear of the king against his obviously negligent and cowardly father.

All of these scenarios would shape the character. Social skills, spells of influence, and different contacts. Or perhaps he devoted all of his real energy to summoning, and now his is preparing to conjure and demon and strike a pact--so that he may prove himself to his father and the whole court. What a great way to open the game!

Anyway, these are just some intial thoughts based on what you presented. Stu's character is fine first draft. Now revise him. No, better yet, toss him out and start again. Build a life and all its attendant quirks and idiosyncracies.

I hope that helped.
Be strong fellow GM! Say no the WF/FB combo!
-luke

[Fifth]

Hmmm... This is embarassing. I made a few mistakes when helping Stu create his character and posting it. I assumed the sorcery skill was based off of will, which would mean each magic skill starts two levels higher than if it was based on perception. I also forgot the gifted trait, just assumed sorcery was taught. And, when I typed his stats from the sheet we put together, I accidentaly gave him a reflex of 5 instead of 4.

But yeah, I can definitely see the munchkin taint in his character. I have a feeling that once he sees the summoning rules he's going to make his character primarily a summoner.

And, once I beat him a few times with a sack full of quarters, he might decide to chose some skills besides what he needs to blow stuff up.

Some new questions:

Why does the gifted trait cost so much? It kind of keeps sorcerors from getting any interesting traits.

There's only a few spells in the CB which are purely non combat related, like calling rain and Patterner. How difficult is it to make spells that do stuff like fertilize fields, build houses, and cut timber using the abstraction rules?

Has anyone played a summoner? How effective were you overall? I can see a lot of spiffy non-combat uses for summoning, but a summoner seems too slow to work well in combat.

And another thing -> I'm Ben, not Dave

:)

[Fifth]

I forgot to mention this, but the patterner spell is the coolest thing I've ever seen. Next time I actually get to play, I'm gonna make me a few hundred square feet of silk.

[luke]

Hmmm... This is embarassing.

not as embarassing as getting someone's name wrong. terribly sorry about that, sincerest apologies.

Why does the gifted trait cost so much? It kind of keeps sorcerors from getting any interesting traits.

Your average, educated sorcerer (the 4 LPs that Stu took) gets his personality beaten out of him, to be replaced by this strange mix of "Yes, master" and the full knowledge of being completely better than everyone else.

Aside from that, Gifted is expensive because sorcerery is very powerful. It's meant to be, and you've got to realize that before you start out or you'll be in trouble.

If you want more trait points for your sorcerer, try different LPs. I am certain you can squeeze more than 5 TPs from 4 LPs. But those lifepaths will change the character! You might get more traits, but have less resources or different skills. But that's the name of the LP game.

There's only a few spells in the CB which are purely non-combat related, like calling rain and Patterner. How difficult is it to make spells that do stuff like fertilize fields, build houses, and cut timber using the abstraction rules?

Personally, i think it's dead easy. Lots of Earth/Control and Earth/Influence spells.

Has anyone played a summoner? How effective were you overall? I can see a lot of spiffy non-combat uses for summoning, but a summoner seems too slow to work well in combat.

You're right, a summoner does all his work BEFORE combat. Because in combat, there's little faster than a wind spirit or a demon...

And, once I beat him a few times with a sack full of quarters, he might decide to chose some skills besides what he needs to blow stuff up.


Give'em one for me! And for all the gms who've a had a game ruined by a powergamer! But seriously, the responsibility to control this type of play is soley in the hands of the GM. We've got to learn the art of the gentle, but firm, "No." And it should never be a flat out refusal. Always a: "No, this doesn't quite fit into the campaign I had planned. How about... this...?"

Work with your players, and make sure the characters are suitable to your conception of game-play. Stu's character might be fine in a game where the story is CONSTANTLY about killing people. But I suspect there might be more to it than that.

-L

[luke]

I forgot to mention this, but the patterner spell is the coolest thing I've ever seen. Next time I actually get to play, I'm gonna make me a few hundred square feet of silk.

Rock!

Finally, someone who gets it! FINALLY!

[Kublai]

As for spells available to start with, DEFINITELY use the Abstraction Chapter to make any spell you'd like before you begin playing. There is a sample I created just recently in the Magic Forum. It's so easy to create spells! However, once the game started, it takes a LONG time to create them, so be warned.

And I HIGHLY suggest the sorcerer takes some facets. These are really integral to BW magic. Every spell in BW comes from abstracting. Abstraction=Sorcery. The two are one and the same. I wouldn't think about playing a Sorcerer without one.

[Kublai]

BTW, Abzu, this was a 3 LP character! :shock:

I have some problems with his story, however. His Lifepath was Born Noble, yet in the 1st sentence of the 2nd paragraph, it says he wasn't a noble. If this is the case, he shouldn't take the Born Noble Lifepath. He should probably have taken the Born City lifepath. And then his father sends him to a sorcerer in some city - this only enforces my notion he should've been Born City and taken the City Sorcerer's Apprentice and Sorcerer LPs.

And just as I suspected, beyond Sorcery skills, he is completely helpless. I would play this guy a complete naive shut-in, seeing as how he has no social or physical skills. Yet, that itself is good for some great roleplaying. What would be really cool is if he chose spells that offset his social retardness. Spells like Arcane Kindness and Persuasion are definitely what this guy needs!

Alas, but he looks like a combat monster. There should be some good reason why he chose to take those deadly spells. Why would such a shut-in take them in the first place? Perhaps he should take a Murderous Trait if at all possible! :twisted:

And I think you caught this, but Sorcery is based off of Perception. This will strip his skills down by a notch or two.

I give this character a 9 out of 10 on the Munchkin Chart. Whenever I see Born Noble, that is the first sign of a problem. When I read that the character isn't a noble despite his Born LP, that jacks it up quite a few notches! :shock:

[Kublai]

I forgot to ask why he took the Summoning skill but didn't take any Summoning Spells? Summoning is fairly useless without them and would take months of game time to learn them.

Other than that, Summoning rocks hard! :twisted: Our Summoner was fantastic with his skill... that is, until he was incinerated by a Rain of Fire!

[Fifth]

I think Stu took born noble because he lived in the court as a child - his father made sure he was given a place to stay and stuff to do, but because his father never officially acknowledged him, he will not inherit anything from his father or have a title.

[Fifth]

Stu's Character 2.0

Born City
Sorcerer's Apprentice
Sorcerer

Perception 4
Will 5
Agility 5
Speed 4
Power 3
Forte 4

Sorcery 6
Research 3
Calligraphy 4
Read 3
Scribe 3
Symbology 2
Summoning 4
Astrology 3
Surgery 3

Contacts:

Father (Important, 4)
Teacher (Minor, 2)

Traits:

Skulking
Gifted
Lost

Spells

Call Air
Call Fire
Bind Nameless
The Fear
Turn Aside the Blade
Shards

Equipment

Writing Supplies
Traveler's Gear
Clothes
Fancy Robe
Shoes

Beliefs:

1) Respect the spirit within all things
2) What goes around comes around
3) Most people are ignorant

Instincts:

1) Always read before bed
2) Keep chalk and summoning supplies handy
3) Thank my lucky stars when good things happen

Background:

???'s mother was a wondering gypsy and his father was a travelling mage. ???'s father stayed in a city for a few years until he was born, then sent him off to a mage to be apprenticed. ??? spent a decade learning with the sorceror, cut off from most human contact. His master was harsh and intimidating for the first few years of his training, but when ??? displayed real magical talent his master warmed to him. His master lived secluded and didn't really care for contact with other people. After 12 years of living with his master, ??? was told to seek his own experiences because his master had no more to teach him. ???'s master arranged for a veteran soldier who had just left the army to travel him. [insert campaign here]

[Kublai]

nice. :)

[luke]

wow! very nice!
Now this is a good solid character.

if only we could get him and Durgil's Knight together, they'd be quite a team.

good job, Ben! and thanks Stu for the rock solid summoner.

-L

[eruditus]

Every spell in BW comes from abstracting. Abstraction=Sorcery. The two are one and the same. I wouldn't think about playing a Sorcerer without one.

Unless your world doesn't use the Abstraction rules. In my world Abstarction is for characters with grey Sorcery only. Even then, we have a lot of playtesting to go before accepting these wholesale :) No, offense to our esteemed developers :) There were some questions about the viability of development in game but that is a question for the Magic Burner forum.