Help me make Advancement the Lifeblood of my game...

[kaomera]

Recently on RPG.net, I posted asking:

Is a steady, constant increase in the skills, abilities, and overall power-level of PCs an unavoidable aspect of role-playing?

and, eventually, I mentioned that:

even though the players are diligently recording all of the Tests they do get, they aren't seeking out more challenging ones.
...
But, like I said, I feel like I have to ramp things up if the players won't do it themselves, because they have brought up Advancement.
...
But I get a definite feeling that they still seem to kind of expect that reward at the end of each session....

To which stormsweeper asked:

What are their BITs? :P

Admittedly this is based on your comments, but it sounds like they want advancement for advancement's sake, and not so much play for play's sake. You can try challenging them through their BITs, but if they just want cool new abilities, it won't help.

My situation, with regards specifically to the BW game I am running, is this: my players don't seem to be buying into the concept that “Advancement is Lifeblood”. My understanding is that the players should be crafting Intents that warrant higher Obs, and that they should be accepting the risk of failure in order to get Difficult and Challenging Tests recorded. My players are not doing this. They are giving me few Intents that I can realistically rate as “Difficult” or harder, and they pile every Helping and FoRK die the can onto every Test. The result is that they rarely roll less than two dice per Ob.

I do not personally mind this all that much. I really think that one of the big strengths of BW is that it allows the players to succeed when they feel the need to. I would like to see more elaborate Intents (and I've tried suggesting this to them), and I think these players should know me enough to know that I'm not out to screw them. But as far as Advancement goes, I could care less...

However, Advancement (and Artha) seems to get brought up at the end of each session. The players seem to want Advances, and I'm not sure they're entirely satisfied with what they're getting. But I can't even say that for sure, because we've gone over the Advancement rules at the end (and beginnings) of the last three sessions, and they all seem to be aboard. It could very well just be “teething problems” getting used to a new system, but I'm worried it's coming up this much. And everyone says they're having a great time. I am certainly digging the game so far, as the players have really taken off, driving the game all over the place and leaving any pre-planned story in the dust. Which I think is cool...

We are definitely having teething problems, a bit. We've gone back over Beliefs and Instincts once so far, and I'm still not 100% satisfied with what we've come up with. But we have limited time each session, and the players are always really chomping at the bit to get going, so I haven't wanted to call a “time-out” to deal with it. Likewise, I'm not doing the best at challenging their Beliefs, simply because they have stuff they want to do. If things slowed down for a second I could probably throw something at them, but so far we've been all frenetic action (which is cool, don't get me wrong). And actually, that may be the solution to the whole problem, as they may have just gotten themselves in a big bundle of trouble.

To make a long story short, last session the Company massacred a bunch of thieves without stopping to try and figure out who they where or who they might be working for... This was mostly to impress a bunch of merchants who had been stolen from by the thieves. Now they are poised to, in the process of lifting a siege from a nearby city, “Snatch anything that isn't nailed down”, as Ogre put it. I feel the need to sit down with the players at this point and see if they understand exactly what they're getting themselves into. If I play things the way I had been thinking, they should now be on the bad side of the very nasty NPC Sorcerer who was pulling the thieves' strings... And they're about to really piss off the same merchants they just got themselves in hot water to impress (as well as the local government) by looting when they aren't supposed to... Now, I never actually sat down and told them exactly what bad stuff could happen if things went this way, but that's largely because I really didn't foresee it. I'm thinking I should probably just take one of the players (whomever shows up who it seems like their character might know how things work around here) and give them a heads up, and let it play out from there.

So, I'll list off their Beliefs, and see what, if anything, anyone can offer in the way of advice.

* The Old Wolf: The Company must grow; We are better together than apart; Sneaky is better than forthcoming.
* Bliss: The Goddess is happy when I use her gifts to make money; Death is a blessing and a sacrament; Leave no enemy behind.
* Brick Dog: Become wealthy and safe; Fools deserve to be abused.
* Wraith: I will fight for and protect the Company and it will for me; I will improve my magic and someday live forever.
* Ponce: I am better and more cultured than others; Soldering will prove my strength.
* Lynx: To seek unity with magic is the one true good; Only by questing through the world can sufficient knowledge be found for goal #1; Living and dying are merely changes in state, not true steps to enlightenment.

[luke]

Likewise, I'm not doing the best at challenging their Beliefs, simply because they have stuff they want to do.

This is the key. They have stuff they want to do -- of course! -- but that stuff isn't tied into any of their Beliefs.

They have NO temporal Beliefs? Nothing of the moment. No enemies to best, to dead lovers to avenge, no quests to undertake -- Nothing to do right now.

Leaving you to set up these high level conflicts -- challenging the sanctity of the company, challenging the beliefs of wealth vs poverty, death vs life...

Blah.

You've got a game in play though. DO NOT call a time out. And DO NOT warn anyone with what you are about to do. Play it out. Let the raid and pillage. Make it easy. Dangle all the juicy bits in front of them. Hell, throw in a Sorcerer's tower, too -- for a little foreshadowing. Make everything Ob 1 tests. Smile and nod, a lot.

Then, once they are fat on their ill-gotten gains, have those merchants show up. Have them screaming bloody murder. The stakes of the conflict? "You turn yourselves in as outlaws right now or pay back what you've stolen ten fold." Have the merchant be unreasonable. Don't let him be convinced of anything -- the whole thing should be an IMMEDIATE Duel of Wits. The merchant was chosen for this mission because of his diplomatic skills, of course. Those stakes will make them sit up and take notice.

They'll probably try to off the merchant right there. Let them. Just digging the grave. Doesn't matter -- YET -- anyway. Because the next conflict? Curve ball. Get that sorcerer in there. Get him in good. Make him an enemy. Make him an enemy they can't defeat. When I introduced my sorcerer villain to my players, I didn't even let them near him. They were part of a besieging army. The sorcerer rode out from the gates and single-handedly destroyed the besieging army. The players were lucky to escape with their lives.

Have that bad ass mofo using his Arcane Kindness-fueled Circles to find out all sorts of information about the PCs -- namely, who and where they are, and who and where their loved ones are. Then come his sorcerously augmented agents and assassins...

Make them hate him. And just as they start to froth, kick them in the guts with the Merchant League -- their company is frozen out of the supply chain or something.

Then -- THEN -- stop the game ask if anyone would like to earn some artha from all this. Ask them if they'd like to change any Beliefs to focus on the conflict at hand. Said Beliefs would be an artha factory...

hope that helps,
-Luke

[kaomera]

hope that helps,
-Luke

I think it does. When I first read that, I was a bit confused. It seemed like you where saying "If you can't get the PCs to take responsibility for initiating higher Ob Tests, drop rocks on them", but eventually I got it through my head that these guys are not my D&D group, that they aren't going to walk out on me because I'm being unfair if I make them face up to the consequences of their actions...

Actually, if they do end up getting themselves in trouble by looting in Carnelian, the encounter with the merchants' representative could blossom into something right off the bat. If he just shows up, I think the PCs simply aren't going to meet with him. They can have him dragged out of camp pretty much an infinite number of times, and roughed up a bit if he gets particularly annoying. However, if he shows up with enough men to actually try to bring them in by force, then there's going to be a fight. And at that point, the Company is probably going to feel obligated to hunt him down (if he gets away) and go after his bosses...

Alternately, if this guy shows up with representatives from the government and/or military, then we might actually get to do a real DoW. Not only could they put the obvious pressures on the Company, but a lot of their new recruits may well start having second thoughts about signing up. And that would strike straight at the Beliefs I have to work with. Plus if the compromise ends up with them having to take employment with someone (government / military / merchant interests) in order to get out of the mess, then I've actually given them what they want, just not how they wanted it, and it should drive the game along... That's cool.

As for the Sorcerer behind the thieves they offed, I think they already have an inkling that something is up there... All of the stuff they recovered for the merchants was odd personal stuff, not particularly valuable in and of itself. This guy is running a racket selling information gathered through a bunch of Imps that he has summoned up and then "loaned" off to wizard wannabes. The PCs offed one of them along with the thieves; ok, no big deal. However, Wraith also (barely) managed to gain control of the Imp this guy was "running", which the Sorcerer is going to see as a very big deal. So, now Wraith has this powerful (in some ways), dangerous, and somewhat unreliable servant. (I'm not actually using the MoBu Imp, this is based off of the Imp that One-Eye ends up with in the books...)

And this Sorcerer (I should really think of a name for him) will be working against them, in the background. I wasn't really sure how to work his being revealed to the PCs, but I now think I simply won't worry about that. He can provide all sorts of interesting tidbits of information to the Company's enemies (at a discount), and when they eventually do uncover him they can blame every setback they've had since hitting the Jewel Cities on him and really get themselves worked up... That should be cool to see.

So, basically, you're saying to wait until the PCs are up to their necks in trouble, and only then ask about refining Beliefs? How about Mark (Brick Dog's player), who's actually admitted that he thinks his Beliefs aren't very good and seems to be more held back by a lack of knowledge of the system? Should I leave him hanging for now, or should I get together with him and try and come up with something more suitable?

And for that matter, I'm not sure I'm completely clear as to what is / is not a good Belief. I had, at first, wanted just the kind of immediate “this is what we will be doing the very first session” kind of Beliefs, but based on how I had interpreted my readings here and re-readings of the books, I had come around to the idea that Beliefs should be more long-term, and more of something I could “challenge” as in “is that really true?”. Am I misreading the concept of challenging Beliefs? Should I be more worried in “how are you going to accomplish that” and less in “can you still say that if this happens”?

[luke]

Hey man,

Right-o! You can see that what I was saying was, "let the players choose a direction and run with it, challenge them with complications and then ask them how they'd like to be rewarded for dealing with those complications."

The Beliefs are ok, but you are definitely lacking in some of the RIGHT NOW Beliefs. You want high concept Beliefs in there, thematic stuff and long term stuff, but you also want immediate goals. Don't forget, Beliefs are color that the player outlines for his character, but they are also the core of the rewards system. Playing with and against Beliefs grants the most reward in play. And players can tell the GM and everyone else how they want to be paid for playing. Mechanically, that's all they are -- the scope of the rewards system.

Very powerful tools at their disposal, you know? Fortunately, they require player involvement and investment to work.

moved this to the Fevered Circle cause it seemd more appropriate.

hope that helps,
-Luke

[LiverMike]

Ithought I was a cut-throat GM!!!!! Wow, I like it. the main prob you are having is with the players, they have grown complacent in their abilities.

BTW- what are their skill levels that they are making ob1 tests all the time?

Im at a 5 or six in my combat skills and I still get ob2+ all the time.

I may be doing the system wrong so if I am, ignoe the second half of this post...

[Kublai]

Skill exponents should have nothing to do with the Obstacle of a test.

If you are in combat, most likely you're Ob is going to be 2 or more - positioning most likely will be +1Ob, lunging, plus Supie wounds. Also blocks and avoids technically add to your obstacle.

[kaomera]

I can't quite put my finger on exactly what the problem is, so perhaps LiverMike is correct, but I don't think it's really complacency in the characters' abilities. If it was, I would expect them to reach more (which is what I want) and to spend less time compiling every possible FoRK and/or Helping die. We're averaging a 3 or 4 skill, 1 or 2 FoRKs (sometimes 3 or 4), between 1 and 5 Helping dice, and occasionally a die for Advantage (although I am trying to be stingy there). So, in total, we're averaging 5 to 10 dice. That's not in combat, tho. We've only had the one scripted Fight!, which went to the very bottom of the third Volley, when Wraith blew the holy hell out of the unsuspecting Forvalaka with Fire Breath. Mostly everyone was rolling 2 to 4 dice in the Fight! and there was a lot of suitably frantic chaos and bloodshed right up until Aron got to whip out his B12 open-ended beatstick for 10 successes...

As far as Luke's [1] suggestions, I don't think they're cut-throat at all. It's the old oAD&D joke where it's the DM's job to see to it that every PC is carrying at least 20' of rope... Because, y'know, that's just enough to hang yourself with...

But, getting back to my original question, if the PCs are getting (let's say) 6 dice, then they need to be attempting things that fall into the “Master-Level” to “Ludicrously Difficult” range if they want Difficult or Challenging Tests. And they seem to want to, there's just some kind of roadblock or misunderstanding going on, at least there appears to be, from where I sit. Perhaps I shouldn't be bothered by it.

I do have one specific question: How do I go about setting up the DoW? I can handle setting the scene and all, but I'm not sure exactly what to do at that point. Do I just jump up and yell “Duel of Wits!” and toss the scripting sheets at them? That seems a bit, off... Maybe I want to say “arbitrary”, I'm not sure. It just kind of trips up my GMing sense somewhere...

The only other thing I think I need is to actually get my head around scripting...

[1]: If I'm going to call you Luke, then I'm Chris. Pleased to meet you.

[luke]

Hi Chris,

Nice to meet you, too.

BW is very flexible in the realm of difficulty and advancement. Players often can make it as easy on themselves as they want. When they have time and friends, that is. However, accepting all that help -- not operating under pressure -- means the characters don't advance.

So the players have a choice -- use all the bonus dice and succeed but stay the same or risk failure and gain for it, even if unsuccessful.

That's a player choice. It's one they can make about nearly every roll. If you're stuck in a place where they aren't making that choice, it's the GM's job to lay it out for them. Tell them what their choices are: You can take the helping dice, sure, or you can just use your skill and get a test for advancement. Dangle that bonus die in front them. Let them choose it.

As for the Duel of Wits, if you have a social conflict in which two players are not in agreement and neither are budging, stop the game -- "Hold it!"

"Chris, you disagree with him? You think the group should confront the Chamberlain with charges of corruption?"

"Yes! and I want Mike to help me! I need his Rhetoric skill against the Chamberlain."

"Mike, you don't want to help?"

"No way, the Chamberlain's innocent!"

"Okay, Chris do you want to let him off the hook?"

"No!"

"Mike, are you going to give in to Chris right now?"

"Hell no!"

"Duel of Wits, gentlemen."

does that help?
-L

[kaomera]

That's a player choice. It's one they can make about nearly every roll. If you're stuck in a place where they aren't making that choice, it's the GM's job to lay it out for them. Tell them what their choices are: You can take the helping dice, sure, or you can just use your skill and get a test for advancement. Dangle that bonus die in front them. Let them choose it.

OK, that's cool, I've already been suggesting they try throwing slightly fewer dice at normal / easy stuff. It seems to come down to that they want to get Ds and Cs off of “less important stuff”, but the less important stuff doesn't usually rate a Test (or at least has a very low Ob). Does that make sense? Is it also kosher to try giving them examples of expanding their Intents? It'll slow things down some, and I'm kind of worried about the meta-gameyness of it, but I'm sort of leaning in that direction.

As for the Duel of Wits, if you have a social conflict in which two players are not in agreement and neither are budging, stop the game -- "Hold it!"

OK, I get the idea (I think), but what about PC vs NPC?

[luke]

OK, that's cool, I've already been suggesting they try throwing slightly fewer dice at normal / easy stuff. It seems to come down to that they want to get Ds and Cs off of “less important stuff”, but the less important stuff doesn't usually rate a Test (or at least has a very low Ob). Does that make sense? Is it also kosher to try giving them examples of expanding their Intents? It'll slow things down some, and I'm kind of worried about the meta-gameyness of it, but I'm sort of leaning in that direction.

YES! You're a player, too. Talk to them as a fellow player. Talk to them about what would make the game cool. Help them see different perspectives.

And as for the "less important stuff," it is your job to make sure that "less important stuff" NEVER results in benefit. If they think they are going to win without risk and then go home and kill a chicken for a test, tell them NO WAY. It is your job as GM to confront them with meaningful challenges. Everything else is just color and background. (hell, if they try to game you into a corner by getting tests in non-crucial areas, just use the Say Yes or Roll the Dice mechanic. Say "yes." And when they ask for a test, tell them that they have to roll the dice to get a test.



OK, I get the idea (I think), but what about PC vs NPC?

That's just you-player vs him-player. No different than the above except you're playing two roles there:

"Hey, the Chamberlain is not budging on this at all. He's not turning himself in to Edo. Period. Either confront him with a Duel of Wits or move on."

-L

[kaomera]

YES! You're a player, too. Talk to them as a fellow player. Talk to them about what would make the game cool. Help them see different perspectives.

Awesome. Consider it done.

And as for the "less important stuff," it is your job to make sure that "less important stuff" NEVER results in benefit. If they think they are going to win without risk and then go home and kill a chicken for a test, tell them NO WAY. It is your job as GM to confront them with meaningful challenges. Everything else is just color and background. (hell, if they try to game you into a corner by getting tests in non-crucial areas, just use the Say Yes or Roll the Dice mechanic. Say "yes." And when they ask for a test, tell them that they have to roll the dice to get a test.

I don't want to sell them short... They haven't actually asked for a Test in these situations... A few of them have even noted of what they are doing, “This won't be worth a Test, right?” So, they know the score here, at least on some level. I think they just feel there should be some “less-important stuff “ that is still important enough to warrant a Test. I suppose it will probably smooth out as we become more familiar with the system, I may be worrying needlessly.

That's just you-player vs him-player. No different than the above except you're playing two roles there:

"Hey, the Chamberlain is not budging on this at all. He's not turning himself in to Edo. Period. Either confront him with a Duel of Wits or move on."

OK. But that would be “or kill him”, right? Not that attacking the Chamberlain would be anything like a good idea, I'm just wondering, do they have the option to escalate things here, or do they have to play through the DoW? As I'm understanding things right now, I want to make sure they understand, up front, that there are going to be dire consequences if they try to fight their way out... I think they may be a bit nervous about getting into (and thereby bound by the results of) a DoW...

Anyway, I'll leave that for now. I'm going to re-read the DoW section and wait and see what they actually end up doing next session...

[luke]

Ok, the threat of violence is never far off in an rpg, but do not let it be so black and white. The players want something from the Chamberlain, they go to his offices. The Chamberlain refuses -- via roleplay. Let's say the players decide against the DoW here, because they don't want to get forced into a compromise. Perfectly acceptable.

But you know what that means? That means they give. The Chamberlain wins the conflict of the scene. He doesn't want to go to Edo. The players don't challenge him or risk anything? He doesn't got to Edo. Scene's over. Cut.

If violence is inappropriate to the scene, then just move on. Or, more clearly, you won a conflict because the players wouldn't fight. If you -- as a player -- don't want a brawl in the municipal offices, move on. Cut. Next scene. You're back in your hideout, what do you do now?

-L

[LiverMike]

ok, so I'm a real novice to the rules....I didn't understand about 1/3 of the rules talk following my post.

but now I have a question since my GM doesn't want me to buy the Monster book yet.... did you say FORVALKA ?!?!?!!??!!?!?!?

The only one of those was from the books I read abd It chewed through the protagonists... and your players zorched it with ease?!?!?!!?!

I used to play a system which was redone and in the process specifically defined certain demons, and this made them killable, because once you give them specific numbers anything is mortal.

I wasn't complaining there but illustrating a point that what the payers don't know is the GM's playpen. Keep that in mind for your overpowering players....

[kaomera]

but now I have a question since my GM doesn't want me to buy the Monster book yet.... did you say FORVALKA ?!?!?!!??!!?!?!?

The only one of those was from the books I read abd It chewed through the protagonists... and your players zorched it with ease?!?!?!!?!

I used to play a system which was redone and in the process specifically defined certain demons, and this made them killable, because once you give them specific numbers anything is mortal.

I wasn't complaining there but illustrating a point that what the payers don't know is the GM's playpen. Keep that in mind for your overpowering players....

Yes, we're playing in the world of the Black Company, only 100 years after they all left the North. And they most certainly did not “zortch it with ease”. No, instead, one of them “zortched it with ease”. The Forvalaka was simply tearing through everyone in the tavern common room to shreds. It's overconfident; it thinks it's Death Incarnate, next to the one who is pulling it's strings, at least. That's it's BITs. It's simply outmaneuvering the Company of Wolves at every turn, getting in tooth and claw range with whatever soft and juicy bits it wants to, and up until the third Volley (when a certain NPC stuck a nasty, poisoned knife through a certain other NPC's gut, with the target's Name etched into the blade) they couldn't even see it. And even though the only PC who got in it's way was (barely) saved by his armor, the PCs where not liking it much. The Company belongs to The Old Wolf, and Ogre plays him that way. It's cool, because Ogre was enjoying it, but clearly his character was not.

I was just about to start my spiel about Helping with the Positioning Test, I figured I'd bring that out in the second Exchange, once they'd had a chance to see how it went without that kind of organization. Just about all of the PCs scripted an Assess, but it wasn't helping much because they don't have Observation Training (they are all training for it, now), and just couldn't beat the Chameleon spell on the Forvalaka. But, of course, the were-leopard never bothered with an Assess. He was having too much fun spilling guts, and besides, these losers certainly weren't a threat! He missed his chance to realize it when the spell shielding him from sight lapsed, oh well... And, he hadn't really noticed that one of the figures “cowering” (his perception) on the balcony over the bar was chanting and waving his hands... So, yeah, Aron hauls off, rolls well (as usual) and blasts the thing for B12 damage. The Forvalaka's MW is B11... The rest of the Company fall upon it with their daggers and such, eventually making a bonfire of what's left of the corpse. I loved that bit... They've just one-shotted the poor thing, and they're still practically panicking just being near the corpse...

Of course, then they decided to grab everything they could lay hands to and run South. Which was funny, but kind of sad as well, as they had just opened up all sorts of interesting possibilities in Deal. Oh, well, they will certainly end up back there some day, and it will be fun to see how their legend has grown, what / who has filled the power void they left behind, etc. I just kind of hope that doesn't end up being their big solution every time things get sticky...