Positioning tests. Determining relative distance

[Claudius]

I've got a new doubt, this time about Positioning Tests, concretely about longer vs. shorter and shorter vs longer weapons.

Burning Wheel p150, Determining Relative Distance.

It's clear that when both weapons have got the same length, both will be in the same distance.

Longer vs. Shorter: We can read what happens when the longer weapon is in optimal striking distance, but what happens when it's in lunging distance? I guess shorter weapons would be outside of striking distance, but I want to be sure. Of course, when the longer weapon is outside of striking distance, shorter weapons are too, aren't they? :P

Shorter vs. Longer: Again, we can read what happens when the shorter weapon is in optimal distance, but what happens when the shorter weapon is in lunging distance or outside of striking distance? Are longer weapons in the same distance as the longer one? Are they one distance nearer for every step in weapon length?

Yes, I know I always make "obvious" questions, but they're not so obvious to me, I assure you :( .

Thank you! :D

[luke]

Longer vs Shorter: Just move the range categories one step out. so shorter weapons are out of striking distance.

Shorter vs Longer: this is the hinky one. Shorter weapons can put themselves at outside striking distance, but they cannot put a longer weapon at lunging distance. The longer weapon is either inside, optimal or out of striking distance against a shorter weapon.

-L

[Claudius]

Longer vs Shorter: Just move the range categories one step out. so shorter weapons are out of striking distance.

What I thought, I just wanted to be sure. Thank you Luke.


Shorter weapons can put themselves at outside striking distance, but they cannot put a longer weapon at lunging distance.

This I don't understand. Why not?


The longer weapon is either inside, optimal or out of striking distance against a shorter weapon.

How do we know if the distance will be inside, optimal or out of striking for the longer weapon?

I admit I didn't expect this answer. I thought the answer would be:

1- Whatever the distance the shorter weapon is in, the longer weapon will be in the same distance, because the guy with the shorter weapon outmaneuvered the guy with the longer one, or

2- The guy with the longer weapon is one distance unit nearer for every step of difference between the weapons.

Could you explain it again? Sorry, but I didn't understand... :oops:

[Yagathai]

As I understand it, this is how you resolve Shorter vs. Longer (that is, when Shorter wins the positioning test):

If Shorter weapon goes Inside, Longer weapon is Inside.
If Shorter weapon goes Optimal, Longer weapon is Optimal
If Shorter weapon goes Lunging, Longer weapon is Optimal
If Shorter weapon goes Outside, Longer weapon is Outside

Yes?

[Kublai]

Sounds right. Quick! Make that a chart and print it out!

[Yagathai]

Is this correct?

http://members.dandy.net/~babyravn/pics/yags/bwchart.gif

[luke]

that's plain olde engrish

[Yagathai]

Trick is, that's what the book says, but I don't know if it works exactly right. Let's say I've got a dagger and you've got a spear. I win positioning, and I want to put myself into Optimal. If my dagger's at optimal, I can't be more than a foot or two away from you. How can your Spear be at optimal as well? I think that if Shorter is +2 steps shorter than Longer, Shorter should have the option of being at Optimal while Longer is at Inside.

[Claudius]

The chart is pretty cool, but I think it should say:


if longer wins and moves to... ...then shorter goes to...

inside inside

optimal lunging or outside

lunging outside

outside outside

If what I've written is right, please change the chart, I found it so helpful that it should be in the core book. :D


Trick is, that's what the book says, but I don't know if it works exactly right. Let's say I've got a dagger and you've got a spear. I win positioning, and I want to put myself into Optimal. If my dagger's at optimal, I can't be more than a foot or two away from you. How can your Spear be at optimal as well? I think that if Shorter is +2 steps shorter than Longer, Shorter should have the option of being at Optimal while Longer is at Inside.

I agree entirely with you, Yagathai. I felt the same as I read it.

[Durgil]

...Let's say I've got a dagger and you've got a spear. I win positioning, and I want to put myself into Optimal. If my dagger's at optimal, I can't be more than a foot or two away from you. How can your Spear be at optimal as well? I think that if Shorter is +2 steps shorter than Longer, Shorter should have the option of being at Optimal while Longer is at Inside.
I can't seem to find it in the rules, but I thought that Optimal range for weapon lengths of Shortest was Inside. This would give the dagger wielder a +1 D bonus for having the shortest weapon on the inside (page 149) and give the spear guy a +4 Ob penalty for having a pole weapon on the Inside (page 148).

That sounds pretty fair to me if the dagger guy can make it from Outside to Inside in one piece. :twisted:

[Yagathai]

Shorter weapon always gets +1D on the inside. But -- what about troll w/ spear vs. human w/ sword? I could see human w/sword on the inside and troll w/spear at Inside for his weapon.

[Yagathai]

Claudius, I believe that your chart is right if the Longer weapon is two categories or more longer than the shorter weapon, hence my asterisked comment at the bottom of the chart.

Of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. =)

[Durgil]

Shorter weapon always gets +1D on the inside. But -- what about troll w/ spear vs. human w/ sword? I could see human w/sword on the inside and troll w/spear at Inside for his weapon.
Are you saying that when an opponent with a weapon two weapon lengths shorter makes it to Optimal range, the opponent with the longer weapon should consider themselves on the Inside (in your example, +4 Ob for using a pole weapon on the Inside)?

[Yagathai]

Yes. But that's the way I think it should be, not the way it is in the rules. I think.

[Durgil]

Yes. But that's the way I think it should be, not the way it is in the rules. I think.
That sounds reasonable to me.

As GM, I think I'd have the troll, at that point, drop the spear, position to close, and try to beat the human to death with his bear hands. If the troll succeeds with his positioning test and is now on the Inside, he'll then get the +1D for having the shortest weapon (fists) and the human will be at a +3 Ob for using a sword on the Inside. :twisted:

I'm probably over-thinking now, but how could the troll's Massive stature, which increases its weapon length by one step, have an effect in this situation?

[Yagathai]

Massive Stature gives a character a +1 length category, IIRC. So a troll with a Long weapon is actually Longer, &c.

[Angaros]

Reach is an issue that can be complicated and detailed in absurdum. Weapons don't only have different lengths, but also different operative distances, and even stretches over various distances even if they're equally long. It's also a matter of technique, stance, agility/armor hindrance, terrain etc. As we all know, the line has to be drawn somewhere. For a while, I was tinkering with a system of absolute measures instead of relative but that gave me some other issues instead. Here's what I was thinking:

- - -
The system relies on five distances: close, medium, long, far, away. The last is an open measure, meaning that it could be a few yards but it could also be 26 miles. Or more. It serves as a measure of when the combatants are out of reach of each other (no matter the melee weapon) and RnC should be used instead.

Weapons belong to any one of the four first categories: close, medium, long, far. Combatants are also always at one distance category. Compare weapon category to current distance category and you'll see your penalty. +1 Ob per step regardless of direction. The only limitation is that once you're fighting at 'away' you're no longer engaged in melee.
- - -

Seems simple right? Problem is: how do you handle multiple opponents without getting bogged down. BW is pretty fast and furious as is and I'd never want to lose that. Also, what happens when you have opponents whose reach transcends the categories listed? Do you add categories making the penalties huge/unusable at some distances? Don't wanna do that. Some optimal reaches should maybe span more than one category as well.

The suggestion about making longer on the inside when on shorter's optimal is interesting but it would also mean that longest weapons would suffer enormously when fighting at the optimal distance for longer weapons. The difference isn't enought there to warrant such a penalty. Another modification to slap on top of yours would be to say that the inside penalty is equal to the difference in steps only. That would make it more reasonable. Longest on longer optimal = +1Ob. Longest on shorter optimal = +4 Ob. Might work for me. :)

[Claudius]

Claudius, I believe that your chart is right if the Longer weapon is two categories or more longer than the shorter weapon, hence my asterisked comment at the bottom of the chart.

Of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. =)


Sorry, Yagathai, I had forgotten about this :oops:

With all due respect, I think your chart doesn't match exactly the text in Burning Wheel. In your chart, we read:

- If longer wins and goes to optimal, then shorter goes to optimal or lunging*

- If longer wins and goes to lunging, then shorter goes to lunging or outside*

*increase distances by one step if longer weapon is two+ categories longer than shorter weapon.

Whereas in Burning Wheel, p.150 we read:

Longer vs shorter

If a longer weapon is in optimal sriking distance, the next shorter weapon in in lunging distance; a weapon two lengths shorter is outside of striking distance.

I'd prefer the original version if, instead of rolling Speed for the Positioning Test, the Weapon skill were used. If Speed is used for the Positioning Test, I prefer your chart. Positioning Tests, in my opinion, are very important, even more than actual strikes, to determine the actual winner of a combat. And the way they are done they are very unforgiving to the one who loses the Test, so it means Speed is a VERY important stat in combat. Don't you feel the Weapon skill should be used instead?

Thanks

[stormsweeper]

The test is about outmanuevering your opponents, though.

[luke]

Speed is no more important than Power or Agility or even Forte. They've all got their place.

-L