Locking clarity

[eruditus]

Is this summary of locking in error in any way?

1) so attacker rolls brawling/MA to hit
2) successful hit and there is an opposed power test
3) every success above the target's ND roll drops a die
4) if lock dice exheed a stat the target is incapacitated appropriately
5) lock dice return as soon as lock is released

[luke]

sounds fine to me, but you can use your Power to lock as well as Brawling/MA.

[eruditus]

sounds fine to me, but you can use your Power to lock as well as Brawling/MA.

Hmmmm, not the root of Brawling or MA? Agility?

Is it at a double Ob penalty?

Why Power? Strong people do not have any sort of advantage to applying a grab. That is the advantage quick and nimble folk have over the brutes - the slippery ones are in trouble once you get your paws on them but until that happens your using a lot of energy trying to get them.

[Durgil]

Strong people do not have any sort of advantage to applying a grab. That is the advantage quick and nible folk have over the brutes - the slippery ones are in trouble once you get your paws on them but until that happens your using a lot of energy trying to get them.
If this is true, then why does wrestling (high school, collegent, and olympic) have different weight classes? Sure, the 115 lb'er is more agile than the 185 lb guy, but unless the big guy has absolutely no experience at the sport and the smaller guy is a state champion, the little guy will loose. At best, it will simply be a draw.

[luke]

[quote=abzu]Why Power? Strong people do not have any sort of advantage to applying a grab. That is the advantage quick and nimble folk have over the brutes - the slippery ones are in trouble once you get your paws on them but until that happens your using a lot of energy trying to get them.

Hence the Get Inside action which use Speed, Martial Arts or (rarely) Agility.

[eruditus]

Strong people do not have any sort of advantage to applying a grab. That is the advantage quick and nible folk have over the brutes - the slippery ones are in trouble once you get your paws on them but until that happens your using a lot of energy trying to get them.
If this is true, then why does wrestling (high school, collegent, and olympic) have different weight classes? Sure, the 115 lb'er is more agile than the 185 lb guy, but unless the big guy has absolutely no experience at the sport and the smaller guy is a state champion, the little guy will loose. At best, it will simply be a draw.

Its because weight class often determines two things: its a ratio of available power/leverage vs weight/volume. Its for lifting purposes. Secondly (as in boxing) there is a "damage threshold." Larger bulk means hitting harder and a small framed person would be at a significant disadvantage if faced with a significantly larger opponent.

Also, in wrestling, the hit is not in question. Both competitors expect contact. There would be no "roll" for Get Inside in a wrestling match... its assumes. Wrestlers cannot ply their trade otherwise :)

So I guess then the idea is that Getting Inside is not only a range issue but is application of the hold as well? Does that use brawling/MA only with Agility as a root skill?

[Thomas Thomas]

eruditus, you apparently have never wrestled before, I'll be the first to admit that I am a terrible wrestler, and my roomate was almost state champion and was in far better shape then I ever was. However I had 40 pounds on him and was often a match for him just because of my weight. He was far faster than I was, and probably stronger, but my weight aka "power" made a huge difference. Raw strength is extremely important in both holding and breaking locks, second only to the skill with which the hold is obtained. And there is a "roll" for getting inside and hitting, if you watch different wrestlers they like different ranges and successfully getting inside your opponent can be extremely difficult, but also extremely dangerous for your opponent.

[rafial]

1) so attacker rolls brawling/MA to hit
2) successful hit and there is an opposed power test


Uh, I may be sticking my foot in here (and if so, please correct me), but there is no separate "to-hit" test. Attacker rolls brawling/MA/Power (attackers choice) vs. Power/Agility (defenders choice).

[Thomas Thomas]

Uh, I may be sticking my foot in here (and if so, please correct me), but there is no separate "to-hit" test. Attacker rolls brawling/MA/Power (attackers choice) vs. Power/Agility (defenders choice).[/quote]

Oops, yea you're right, I stand corrected.

[eruditus]

eruditus, you apparently have never wrestled before, I'll be the first to admit that I am a terrible wrestler, and my roomate was almost state champion and was in far better shape then I ever was. However I had 40 pounds on him and was often a match for him just because of my weight. He was far faster than I was, and probably stronger, but my weight aka "power" made a huge difference. Raw strength is extremely important in both holding and breaking locks, second only to the skill with which the hold is obtained. And there is a "roll" for getting inside and hitting, if you watch different wrestlers they like different ranges and successfully getting inside your opponent can be extremely difficult, but also extremely dangerous for your opponent.

Okay lets look at this piece by piece:

1. I have wrestled. Truth be known, there are nary a combat form I have not at least tried (save really obscure stuff and Sumo). <My apologies this is not meant to sound as haughty as it comes out :P >

2. Well, i'd say if he was stronger than you then he would have had a higher power than you. Even if power does mean some size, neither of you could have been much more than a point away from one another. Even if you had a 20 power and he had a 2 power, it wouldn't matter a bit since you both have exponents in Wrestling. if you were THAT terrible a Wrestler then it probably meant you were just not a good scripter :) except against your friend.

3. This was already established by my last post, that Getting Inside is the equivalent of a "hit roll." It is the Agility root I was looking for.

4. If you were to stat out a wrestling match in a ring in BW (and I am not counting professional Wrestling which is another animal all together) there would probably not be a get inside roll since a) you are assumed to "hit" one another and b) most ranges are already the "Get Inside" range - basically grabbing range. Its much more abstracted than what your thinking of, Thomas. In BW it would pretty much be just a series of Wrestling rolls to lock. There would be no such thing as Avoid (since it involves a dash, which in most wrestling matches would take you right out of the ring). Defense would be by scripting various levels of movement (circling), blocks and counterstrikes. If anyone got out of "Get inside" range then they could not, themselves, apply a lock. Getting inside in BW is mutual - not the advantage you are describing in traditional wrestling.

[Kaare Berg]

Ah the sweet discussion of brawn versus technique. Here let me put my two cents in.

I have fought both strong, quick and high people(both as in tall and per other definitions). And I have no martial arts training except for basic streetbrawling (with focus on pinning and and locking), nor am I very big (6 foot three and approx 160 lbs).

It is my experience that "size matters not", more the element of suprise and "proper scripting". He punches you, you avoid inside (though but doable) and you grab his face and trip him (lock throw). Then you sit on him and twist his arm until he relents (or passes out).

To summarize a long winded post (with too many of these: () ) :oops: :

I agree with eruditus in that strong people have no special advantage in applying the grab since it is all a matter of timing.

[eruditus]

I agree with eruditus in that strong people have no special advantage in applying the grab since it is all a matter of timing.

I suppose you could say its Agility OR Power. I can't say someone who knows how to leverage his power is ass out. I just think that a smaller person can affectively apply grabs. Now how much damage they do and how well they hold the person is another story entirely.