Questions about damage, magic, and orc PCs

[Thomas Thomas]

Hi all, I bought this game at ubercon yesterday and have spent some time reading through it to get a feel for the rules, I'm checking to see if my understanding of some of the rules is accurate, please correct me if I'm mistaken.

1) Finding out if you hit... Role the appropriate skill exponent trying to get above 4. This number of successes minus the successes of any defensive actions is compared to the add table for the weapon. Now we know if it missed, incidental hit, mark hit, or superb hit.

2) Damage, assuming no successes are rolled by armor, each weapon, with any particular power, has only three possible numbers of damage Depending on the type of hit, one of the three types is done. Armor piercing weapons raise the difficulty number for the armor saves. The damage made by the attacker is marked in that character's PTGS to find what type of wound it is. Always round down.

Regardless of how right or wrong I am above, what are the effects of say a B4 wound to someone who has grey 10 health? What if they have grey 2 health? Etc. Also on page 115 it says, "For every +3 DN it is cancelled and a die is subtracted from everything. I was thinking about this and, assuming an attacking skill of B4 you become more likely to hit when this happens. 4 dice with a difficulty of 6 will succeed 2/3rds of the time, while 3 dice with a difficulty of 4 will succeed 3/2 times. Why is this?

Another question is on the skill advancement chart on page 51. It consistently has a challenging test as one that requires one or more successes than the player has dice to throw? Is this even possible? Or is it the idea to have the player fail at some impossible task and learn from it?

Lastly I have some questions about magic. Is there an equivalent to the dispel magic in AD&D? For instance if two mages are fighting and one starts to cast a spell, is there a way for the other mage to defend himself other than interrupting him or getting lucky; guessing what spell he is going to cast, casting its opposite, to end on the same round. I don't mean eldritch shield either, an instantaneous maybe 2 or 4 syllable spell.

Reading back over my post it makes me look like a complete power gamer, I have to beg in my defense and hope you believe me. I will be GMing this system so I have to know, I have the book in front of me, and I have a near photographic memory.

Something I just realized that doesn't really fit anywhere else in my post. What is the difference between average and superior quality armor? Dwarven armor states that it is superior quality but I can't find out anything about what that means? On a similar note is there any information about magical items, weapons, armor, and otherwise. I always like things like continual light gems, decanters of endless water, and my favorite bags of holding, is there information on how to make these or examples of them? Thanks again.

One last technical question though about GMing this system, how does one go about getting orcs to work with anybody in a group? That must be extremely difficult to role-play an orc who voluntarily joins the group of adventures, or is the orc character creation meant solely for the use of creating NPCs? Some advice would be most appreciated. And lastly, how does one tell if a die roll is open ended or not.
Thanks,
Thomas Thomas

[Catalyst]

Welcome to Burning Wheel!

Just a quick response, I'm not going to touch a lot of your questions, leaving them for others to assist with.

Some of the answers can be found in the Character Burner book, such as the difference between normal and superior armor (look in the "Resources" section).

Also, very important: The success number for a Black rated skill/attribute/whatever is a 4 or higher roll on each D6, not above 4. Grey is 3 or higher, White is 2 or higher. "DN" means "This number or higher on each die rolled".

Finally, for this post, combat penalties work like this: Each +1 DN adds one point to your regular DN. So if you try a Black skill when you have a Superficial (+1 DN) wound, your DN is 5 for each die rather than the usual 4, so if you roll a 5 or 6 on a die, you get a success with that die. When you get a -<dice>D penalty, you take that many dice away from the exponent for the skill/stat in question. If you get enough DN modifiers to push you up to or past +3 DN, for each +3 DN, you drop to the regular DN and add a single die penalty. Remember that the penalties are supposed to reduce the wounded creature's probability of getting a regular number successes when acting, it's a probability reduction that's happening, and it's not even. Just don't worry about it is my opinion.

Why? It doesn't require much math during the game to work out.

[Drozdal]

Hey Thomas Thomas - nice to have you here

1) You got that corect

2) Correct. But whare did you gaet that round down? If you inflict would you do not have to round down or something just compare scales, you're rounding down results on ptgs scale (if i remember correctly) when you create character.

About Supernatural Health/PTGS no matter how high is ones ptgs (even white) but remember you have to streach it on all scales (from Black tyo white) - that means that dragons also have superficial wounds on black scale (though that could be for example B7 or higher), your example with B4 hit could probably do superficial, or might do no damage at all, but still if you would pull out mark or superb result it's veery likely that person with G health would be wounded.

I haven't played mage - got you can design that spell yourself using abstraction rules (in download section on website).

Armour - i think (do not have book with me) that difference between those two armours lies in failed rolls (there is something like ignoring first rolled 1 or something).

About magic items - we are assuming that elven weapons are megical (because thay have VA of 2 LOL) but seriously - i think that Abzo had more low fantasy world in mind when he desinged those rules - wait for magic burner and enchanting chapter :) (Right now you just have to rely on your common sense and expirience).

Open Ending: Perception rolls and Stell rolls are open ended, you can also iopend end roll by: spending artha, magic, prayer or having special trait. Those are in the rules just look a little closer ;)

Dro

Thanx for your ineterst in the game.

Expirience - You got that one corecct too - failed tests counts towards advancement also :) (Just try not fail too badly :P)

Dro

More on quastion later - have to get books to figure out scales for G health :)

[Kublai]

Hi, Thomas x 2! Welcome to BW!


Regardless of how right or wrong I am above, what are the effects of say a B4 wound to someone who has grey 10 health?

I am going to assume you meant a Grey 10 Mortal Wound since Health has no part in the greyscale or determining wounds. In order to have a G10 MW, one needs a G6 Power and G6 Forte. With a G6 Forte, this means you have a B6 Superficial (This is the way I play it, I am not sure about the rules :? ). So the B4 would have no effect at all on such a character.


I was thinking about this and, assuming an attacking skill of B4 you become more likely to hit when this happens. Why is this?

BW likes to think of this switch over as an awareness of a new level of pain. Supies and Lights can hurt and are bad, but nothing compared to a Midi or above! And so the character forgets about such petty scratches and really concentrates on saving his butt. Sorry, no math in this answer, but math really doesn't matter in some cases.


It consistently has a challenging test as one that requires one or more successes than the player has dice to throw? Is this even possible?

It is possible with Artha. Artha dice won't count towards the total number of dice thrown in such cases.


Is there an equivalent to the dispel magic in AD&D?

There is no such equivalent in the book, no, but with the new and perfectly legal Abstraction Chapter, there is no reason why you couldn't Abstract one yourself! In fact, I'd love to see your attempt at it!


What is the difference between average and superior quality armor?

Superior Quality armor allows the wearer to reroll that failed 1 once. Very handy!



On a similar note is there any information about magical items, weapons, armor, and otherwise. I always like things like continual light gems, decanters of endless water, and my favorite bags of holding, is there information on how to make these or examples of them?

At this point, magic items are at your discretion. Making BW-style D+D items is fairly simple, take as example the Elven Cloak. It is nothing more than a Cloak of Invisibility with the BW twist. Continual light stones are easy, too. Simply choose the level of Mage Light you want that stone to have and make it permanent. Otherwise, keep bothering Abzu about creating the Enchantment Chapter. He is under the assumption that no one wants one, so it is way down on his list of things to do. :cry:


One last technical question though about GMing this system, how does one go about getting orcs to work with anybody in a group?

Ha! This ain't no technical question, Bucko! :P Having an Orc within a non-Orc party requires great GMing, excellent Players, and a really good story! Perhaps the Orc has been cursed with some sort of Trait that makes him act very un-Orcish? Perhaps the Orc is a slave to another PC?


And lastly, how does one tell if a die roll is open ended or not.

Typically, the die roll is open-ended if it is testing Magic, Faith, and Perception. Magic includes Sorcery, Summoning, Dwarf Skills, and Elf Songs. Artha will also allow you to open-end. Otherwise, no other skill is open-ended.

[luke]

Hi TT,

I hope Kublai, Dro and Catalyst were helpful. In the future, if you could title your posts more descriptively, I would much appreciate it. This board is intended to be something of a FAQ, descriptive titles help new members/players quickly find what they are looking for.

Also, your comment about the +1 DN vs -1D mechanic reminded me of something I meant to post this week. Check out this posts for a bit on alternate wound tolerance mechanics.

http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1548#1548

enjoy!

[Thomas Thomas]

I don't think the new system works as well as the old. For instance if your character is rolling 4 dice to hit. With +2 DN your odds go from 2/1 success/roll to 1/3 success/roll. However when you increase the obstacle it becomes impossible by 2 it becomes impossible to get anything other than an incidental hit (with four dice). With more dice this effect becomes less pronounced and eventually will reverse to make the DN a worse effect. I don't know if anything can or should be done about this, but I do like modifying obstacles rather than DN. That way the DN is basically set at 4. I don't know which system is better at the moment for me...

On a different but similar note, D10s might be better for the purposes of this game, as modifying the DN with them is less devastating. (*Braces for impact of flame*) Ok, never mind this has been addressed, I just saw that. Unfortunetaly I just bought a pile of D6, will try that before making the game less deadly.

Also you mentioned in the alternate wounding system that the pain from incidental wounds fades quickly. This would be especially true with the effects of adrenaline. An idea could be to have those effects drop by one every exchange. This would be for superficial wounds only I think as others do physical damage to muscle and connective tissues.

Another question, dealing with the DOF, why do ranged attacks use it? Would it not make the game simpler if ranged attacks also used add?
I understand that with spell casters there is no to hit roll so they might still use the DOF but otherwise I see little purpose for it. Lastly how does armor affect spells? For instance does metal armor protect from lighting attacks, or can shards be slowed/deflected by armor?

Ok, sorry, my next post will be more specific in the title, but I do think I got the combat system down, except maybe when characters are moving but I'll figure it out I think, if not I'll ask again. Thanks everyone
Thomas Thomas (yes that really is my name.) :shock:

[luke]

I don't think the new system works as well as the old. For instance if your character is rolling 4 dice to hit.

+1 Ob is less of a penalty (in the long run) than +1 DN.
-1D is less of a penalty than +2 DN.
+2 Ob is a worse penalty than both of the above.
So it balances a little. However, it does penalize characters with very few dice (like 2 or 3). Can't be helped, really. This system is slightly more harsh than the original, but it still probably isn't harsh enough. See Greg Porter's post on surviving gunshot wounds in the Sea of Abzu/GenCon post.

Lastly, I understand that the outside probability of getting four 6s (hence four successes) is dissipated by this new setup. Such desperate hope had to be sacrificed for internal consistency.



On a different but similar note, D10s might be better for the purposes of this game, as modifying the DN with them is less devastating.

This thread addresses this point: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6879


Also you mentioned in the alternate wounding system that the pain from incidental wounds fades quickly. This would be especially true with the effects of adrenaline. An idea could be to have those effects drop by one every exchange. This would be for superficial wounds only I think as others do physical damage to muscle and connective tissues.

Use Artha to Shrug Off Superficial wounds during a fight. Superficials pretty much automatically dissipate after a fight anyway.



Another question, dealing with the DOF, why do ranged attacks use it? Would it not make the game simpler if ranged attacks also used add?

In the philosophy of the game, ballistic missiles are more unpredictable than muscle and skill driven blades and bludgeons. Were I to pick up a crossbow and release it into your gut, there is a good chance that I would cause you serious physical harm --possibly even kill you-- despite the fact that I have no skill in the use of such a device.

Whereas, were I to pick up a sword and strike you with it due to my low physical strength and complete inexperience in using such a device I would likely cause you some harm, but it would be HIGHLY unlikely that I kill you.



Lastly how does armor affect spells? For instance does metal armor protect from lighting attacks, or can shards be slowed/deflected by armor?

Personally, I don't allow armor to protect against spells at all. But some GMs do.


I do think I got the combat system down, except maybe when characters are moving but I'll figure it out I think,

Remember that characters act as they move. And that characters are assumed to close to fighting distance unless they state/act otherwise.

-L

[nebulousmenace]

In the long term it's usually better to be -1D than to be +2 DN. However, when you GO to -1D, you take a Steel Test.

Which is a very, very bad thing. It involves a fair bit of standing around getting stabbed, or running away at top speed. Your choice. Also, the -1 die to everything also means -1 action per exchange. Which means MORE getting stabbed.

Don't get stabbed. Better yet, don't get shot in the chest with a crossbow.

[Catalyst]

OOh, I'd forgotten about the Steel tests, good catch, NM!

I remembered when I was reading the manuals that it did balance out, but couldn't remember how when I was replying. That was it!