High Fantasy Vs. Low Fantasy [Archive]

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Dregg

11-11-2003, 12:52 PM

I'm new to the list an the game and one question has been hitting my mind...

Combat for Burning wheel is pretty deadly, but that is a good thing... it makes for real heroes, not I'll sit and fight until my 100 hit points wear off sort of D&D heroes. I always like to run in the Cinematic, where sometimes the harshness of the system kinda throws a monkey wrench. Does anyone out there use Burning Wheel in the Cinematic sense, or are most of your campaigns gritty low fantasy?

Kublai

11-11-2003, 01:04 PM

Hi, Dregg! Welcome to the Forums!

Your question is one I worried about when I first started playing BW. However, now that I've been playing it for years, I have seen a satisfying trend in terms of gritty vs. cinematic combat. BW's "grit" evolves along with the character.

When you begin with a 3 or 4 LP character with skills of B3 or B4, every combat is life-threatening and uber-gritty. As your skill advances, though, so increases your ability to begin doing fantastical "cinematic" moves. Now, after years of playing, I have a monk with a G9 Tae Poong Do skill and all of the Special Manouvers listed. When this guy fights, it's as if Jet Li himself has stepped into the combat.

The growth is very satisfying. You feel as if you've earned the right to be "cinematic."

However, I must recognize that the actual cinematic feel of combat comes down to good roleplaying and narration. Even a lowly 3 LP Dwarf Footman can pull off moves worthy of Gimli - if descibed right! :D

luke

11-11-2003, 02:03 PM

Kublai's right about the growth in power and ability.

But let's get a discussion going: Define "cinematic", Dregg!

Give us some examples from games you've played.

Dregg

11-11-2003, 02:19 PM

Kublai's right about the growth in power and ability.

But let's get a discussion going: Define "cinematic", Dregg!

Give us some examples from games you've played.

Cinematic: The wonderful world of over the top action
Well some of the Cinematic games I have played as of recent have been
FengShui
Savage Worlds
BESM
Buffy TVS

I guess being a old schol "pulp" buff, I like face paced, very narritive action. Granted I love the BW comabt system because while gritty, allows for a very narritive flow, without loosing all the bone crunching goodness of hardcore combat. I mean if someone hits you with an arrow in a well placed shot, your going down! D&D misses the whole point with Hit points, your Archer is worthless with say a 10th level ranger as a target... even Aragorn has a weak spot in his armor.
What i'm thinking about is the more freeform stuff, doing the flips, Matrix style fights, Wuxia type "fly through the air" comabts in the trees. Granted your prolly saying, "well go back and play Feng Shui fanboy!"

I Don't Wanna!
If your Familiar with Buffy TVS you have Drama points, stuff that allow you to alter that story path, or put things in your favor, but of course once your out your undead chowder.

Now I'm not done reading every nook and cranny of BW, and I may read something tonight that will make me turn red and move to another country. Has this sort of "Fly by the seat of your pants" sort of style been ever attempted or tried with the game?

Kublai

11-11-2003, 02:44 PM

Yeah, that's what I figured. Your definition of "cinematic" coincides with my own definition. And I stand by my assessment that the potential of such action develops with your characters abilities.

Check out the special martial art styles in the back of the rulebook. Tae Poong Do allows a lot of high-flying combat. I use Leap in almost every volley recreating the wire-fu feeling. And with Hueh Oh Ri Baram, suddenly my character looks like an Agent dodging Neo's bullets! Traits also help to create this feeling - Aura of Fear, Fearless, Chow Yun Fat, Lightning Reflexes, etc...

I hope they might encourage you to create your own styles and share them!

luke

11-11-2003, 02:49 PM

Alright, Dregg, I think we have what you are looking for.

But, let me note at the outset, that you protested D&D-style damage systems -- and most people consider cinematic roleplay a situation where you can absorb tons of damage while dishing out mega-ton blasts with your fists.

Burning Wheel isn't like that. Mortals are just that -- killable. But there are more than mortals in the game.

Let me take a step back and elaborate.
For kung-fu style action, use the Specialist Martial Arts that we developed in the back of the book -- Tae Poong Do, Kim-do and Takashi-do. You've got enough kicks, locks and crazy maneuvers in there to suit you for a while. Also I posted Mantis style here on the website.

For high flying maneuvers, just name an obstacle! Want to do a standing backflip kick? Sure! Ob 4 in your Kung Fu skill test. Anything -- high or low or middle fantasy -- can be done using the Obstacle system. Just remember that in order to do such feats, characters are going to need to have high skills.

Lastly, if you really want to have a "gods among mortals" feel to your game, go Heroic! Give all your PCs Gray stats and all the NPCs Mundane/Black shade stats. This way they will cut swaths through the masses while only taking nicks and scrapes themselves!

When you really want a bad bad bad guy in there, make him Heroic/Gray like the PCs and watch the fur fly!

Just remember, like shade vs like shade can kill each other with one luck shot. Lighter shades can't be killed by darker shades, they must be whittled away.

-L

Dregg

11-12-2003, 06:55 AM

Alright, Dregg, I think we have what you are looking for.

For high flying maneuvers, just name an obstacle! Want to do a standing backflip kick? Sure! Ob 4 in your Kung Fu skill test. Anything -- high or low or middle fantasy -- can be done using the Obstacle system. Just remember that in order to do such feats, characters are going to need to have high skills.

Lastly, if you really want to have a "gods among mortals" feel to your game, go Heroic! Give all your PCs Gray stats and all the NPCs Mundane/Black shade stats. This way they will cut swaths through the masses while only taking nicks and scrapes themselves!

When you really want a bad bad bad guy in there, make him Heroic/Gray like the PCs and watch the fur fly!

-L

I think you hit what I was looking for with the last two...
Mooks are an important part of any heroes Breakfast, how can he look like a badass if he can't mow down low lifes while drinking his favorite beverage. I will try that, but first I must pull players in.... time to post at the old game store.
And I like the raise the bar on the obsticle number to do "Stunts", I honestly don't go for the "Wire Fu" feel when I do Western Fantasy, but I do like to see the Legolas style tactics in combat.

Now on to a new subject all together...
Races!
I have a Steam/Horror Fantasy setting that I have stoped running because I refuse to run it in D&D D20 anymore. So I have to get cozy with the Character Burner so I can add a couple of Races to the old charter.

YAY BW!

Drozdal

11-12-2003, 08:14 AM

Dregg

11-12-2003, 09:45 AM

I have a Steam/Horror Fantasy setting that I have stoped running because
Hey Dregg - as far as i rememebr rinnieB was doin' something in steampunk departament, but he's so quiet these days - check with him :)

Dro

Awsome, I will try and track him down...
But now to convert my D20 notes and races over to BW...
This will help me also get the rules pounded into my brain as well.

Kublai

11-12-2003, 10:50 AM

Hey, Dregg! In case you didn't know, here are the Lifepath Creation Guidelines: http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31

I am using them now to create a new race. I expect you to post yours once you've finished, as well! :)

eruditus

11-12-2003, 10:55 AM

Give us some examples from games you've played.

Cinematic: The wonderful world of over the top action

I guess being a old schol "pulp" buff...

What i'm thinking about is the more freeform stuff, doing the flips, Matrix style fights, Wuxia type "fly through the air" comabts in the trees.

Also Artha gives you the real punch that you need (BW pg 186ish). Heroic Shade high Artha games allow you to not comprimise with realistic obstacles while your PCs and named villains still fly about doing outrageous shit. Artha makes the game more survivable as well, not only in Shrugging off those deadly wound modifiers, but in assisting healing rolls as well.

Dregg

11-12-2003, 11:12 AM

Dregg

11-12-2003, 11:21 AM

Also Artha gives you the real punch that you need (BW pg 186ish). Heroic Shade high Artha games allow you to not comprimise with realistic obstacles while your PCs and named villains still fly about doing outrageous shit. Artha makes the game more survivable as well, not only in Shrugging off those deadly wound modifiers, but in assisting healing rolls as well.

Swweeeeeeeetttttt!
Ok, must go to Gaming store and Pull some people together...

It's all Lukes fault you know, Awsome salesman! and the Demo rawked on Toast!
::Sigh::
It's games like this that want me to do some "Cleansing of the Books" on my Shelf

Dregg

eruditus

11-12-2003, 11:33 AM

[quote=eruditus]
It's all Lukes fault you know, Awsome salesman! and the Demo rawked on Toast!
::Sigh::
It's games like this that want me to do some "Cleansing of the Books" on my Shelf

Dregg
Thats what we like to hear.

Welcome to the cult... I mean club :twisted:

Dregg

11-12-2003, 12:04 PM

Thats what we like to hear.

Welcome to the cult... I mean club :twisted:

Yeeessssssssssss...
Cults are a good thing, and Just the Name "Cult Of the Burning Wheel" sounds like a CNN story ready to happen (or a bad D&D module from the 80's).

Soooo in this Cult will there be pretty skyclad women bearing fruit filled weasels?
A man has to have his standards when selling his soul.

I guess I have been a fan of Indie games for ages (being a designer myself), but in the day and age of the D20 Monster all you find in a game store is all prepackaged shite.

I'm honestly not kissing Arse
If anything BW was a sign that the Industry is alive and well

luke

11-12-2003, 03:13 PM

so is Bad Muthas a High Fantasy or Low Fantasy game?

And do you want to dual stat it?

:)

Dregg

11-12-2003, 03:34 PM

so is Bad Muthas a High Fantasy or Low Fantasy game?

And do you want to dual stat it?

:)

Bad Muthas is a "Cinematic" 70's Action Movie/Blaxploitation game of Funky proportions 8)

Hmmmmmmmm Dual Stat, we should talk.... might be interesting (as long as we are not talking D20 devil dual stating)

luke

11-12-2003, 04:15 PM

I've got a B7 Fuck Shit Up, a B9 Kick Yo Ass, and a B10 Pimpin.

I'm talking BW (that's Bee-Dub), baby!

Beliefs:
Pimpin Ain't Easy.
Coffee is the Color of Her Skin
Rudy Ray is Dolemite.

Instincts:
Keep two stones on the right hand
Always check for Narcs
Always dress in silk and leather

Dregg

11-13-2003, 06:09 AM

Rudy Ray is Dolemite.

That's all that has to be said 8)

The Chapter 13 Press web site should be up soon, with some fiction and other "Bad Ass" goodies. So you can see what the madness is all about.
On another note, Bad Muthas also uses a life path system for character generation :D

There is also a flyer that went out at Gen con, it was a mini catalog for Fuzion, but there is a teaser for BM in it.
http://www.mecha.com/~conkle/fuzion/flyer4.PDF

eruditus

11-13-2003, 01:14 PM

Yeah, I looked at the flyer and Artesia is in there. :(

Maybe mark will let us do a stat block version for the Wheel.

Dregg

11-13-2003, 01:36 PM

Yeah, I looked at the flyer and Artesia is in there. :(

Maybe mark will let us do a stat block version for the Wheel.

I'm curious... you're saddened by the Artesia game. How come?
please forgive me for any Ignorance that might ensue on my part.

Is this your intelectual property?
Did you get beat to the punch on the license?

eruditus

11-13-2003, 01:42 PM

Dregg

11-13-2003, 01:57 PM

LOL. I adore Artesia (and its all Mark Smylie's - fantastic, fantastic material). Mark had already bought the Fuzion liscence to independantly produce the book before seeing Burning Wheel. Although Fuzion is a competant system I think that Burning Wheel would have emulated the gritty fantasy much better. Turns out that Mark even had lifepath's planned for Artesia.

Just a matter of timeing, I would think.

On the other hand I am UBER-excited to see Artesia in RPG form! I love Smylie's work in all regards. I only hope I have my own project done so I can devote some campaign time to running Artesia :)

Sorry to hear that it worked out that way. BW is an awsome system, and I have found it usable in my campaign needs.... wow and I have 90 dollars worh of 3.5 core books sitting there too. Oh well Wizards books make great door stops (how decadent)
Alot of people call Fuzion a Dead system, but it is not. I was a Huge Interlock fan with CP2020 and Fuzion is just like working with CP.
Not that I am lazy with systems, I was the Designer (well Co designer, that soup had alot of chefs) of the system being used in J Sorenson's OctaNe... Of course it was changed to fit the Genre and MMT did alot of work on it after it was released in "Pulp Era". I just wanted to get this project done, and Fuzion was the way for me to go.
I will get back onto the Mechanics end of things again, I still do plan to redo Pulp Era for Publication, but Now I just need to "get the Funk on!"