banging beliefs with new players

[gooderguy]

3 players in my game (so far)

our 2nd real session. (third if you include world and character burning)

one player i've played with for a year, the other two are new to me.

the one player i'll grab drinks with once in a while, the other two we haven't thus far

we did a group campaign creation session, but not all the players were there for the whole time. they did all want to the anti-establishment concept, though

first session and a half was a character burning session with new characters specifically made for BW

one character (the one gamer i know well) is a guard captain turned smuggler who believes
1. Valor is more precious than wealth
2. the strong must protect the weak or be held accountable
3. never trust a man who hasn't bled with me

one character is a criminal merchant gambling house owner who believes
1. my gang is my family
2. i will carry us across the bridge (to the 'safe, rich side of town')
3. i will get my brother (an estranged cult leader) back

the third character is an itennerant mandolin player who believes
1. my mentor died without respect and i will not see great men ignored
2. in my own small way, i will support efforts against the nobility
3. violence alone accomplishes nothing

the first bang i hit was a noble walking into the gambling house and demanding they hand over this young female singer who in turn begged for the pc's help. character 1 and 3 jumped to her aid against the nobility, character two was like, 'she's yours, just don't mess up my place' - that bang actually worked as i imagined. duel of wits, etc. intimidated the noble to leave.

second bang, the noble had his friend buy out the stables next to the gambling house. the merchant engaged in a hopeless duel of wits 1:1 with the noble and lost. the BANG was that the noble, in his dismiss, accused the merchant of harboring known cultists. i expected my player to jump on that, but it went right over his head.

my third bang was during the first meeting of rebellious citizens, the meeting was held by a cult-leader that was the rival to the merchants brother's cult. the meeting was broken up when a messenger came in to warn of an attack on one of the cults safe-houses. player 1 and 3 went off to help the rebels, but 2 tried to slink away.

was i too subtle, or should i just knock it up to new players to BW with new character's they're not so familiar with and keep trying?

also, i'm not exactly sure how to challenge player 3's beliefs. i feel like maybe he's not familiar enough with the game to understand how they work. should i just wait and encourage him to change them once he understand the system better? he's pretty much denied all my suggestions, but when it comes to play, he's pretty good at playing out the 'violence alone solves nothing' belief.

player 1, who i've played with a lot responds well to all my tests of his beliefs, but i hate the idea of the game becoming just me and him.

am i approaching things the wrong way? should i perhaps not worry until we're all more familiar with each other and the system, or is there any ideas about how to draw these players further into the BW fold?
i feel like there's a steep learning curve for players who are more used to the carrot and stick style of GMing. i want THEM to make the scenes happen, but it seems kind of hard with a group new to each other, new to the game and new to the style of play.

[Kublai]

The real error here is that they don't all have a common Belief tied into whatever the campaign goal is. Where is the beliefs about the cult or rebels that would have forced them to care one way or the other?

[luke]

Belief number 2 for player 3 is what we call a Roach Belief. When the light shines on that character he's going to use that Belief to scuttle for the shadows -- away from conflict, away from fun.

"In my own small way..." is a profoundly dangerous phrase in a Belief. To me, it screams "I'm going to back away slowly from every conflict and then maybe if I feel like possibly might maybe get involved."

Would you want the protagonist of your fantasy fiction to have that Belief? Maybe in the first act, but certainly not in the second.

My advice? DO NOT have him rewrite that Belief before play. Do not. Instead, challenge the living hell out of it. Use his other two Beliefs against him: Have his mentor's corpse dragged around the streets by drunken rakes mocking coitus with it and feeding bits to the dogs. If this player every wants to engage in a Duel of Wits, say no. Go right to Fight! Violence doesn't accomplish anything? Well, how is he going to protect his mentor's good name against the tyrannical nobility who won't listen to reason?

:evil: :twisted:

-Luke

[Thor]

Or you could discuss it with them.

Here's my current thinking on Beliefs:
A belief should contain an ideological stance of some sort.
A belief should contain a goal in the "I achieve this goal and earn a Persona point" sense.
A belief should express how the ideological stance drives the character to achieve the goal.

Most of the beliefs you've got are good proto-beliefs. In other words, almost all of them contain an ideological stance:
1. Valor is precious
2. The strong must protect the weak
3. Never trust someone I haven't fought with
4. My gang is my family
5. I will not see great men ignored
6. I will support efforts against the nobility
7. Violence alone accomplishes nothing.

All of these are strong ideological stances. With the addition of a goal and an action to achieve that goal, these will be very strong beliefs.

I should make an important point here: Beliefs are not meant to remain static. They are designed to grow and change. To be strengthened, weakened, resolved or broken. If a belief expresses something about your character that you never want to change, then it should be expressed as a trait instead.

A couple of the beliefs build on a goal:
1. I will carry us to the safe, rich side of town.
2. I will get my brother back.

Now we're getting somewhere. Merged with an ideological stance, these will be beliefs that can be resolved and point players in a strongly proactive direction.

So let's take 1 and merge it with the crime family proto-belief:
My gang is my family and I will carry us to the safe, rich side of town.

That's much stronger. Now we know what he wants to accomplish (carrying them to the safe, rich side of town). Doing so will earn him a Persona point. We also know why he wants to do it (my gang is my family).

The only thing that's missing now is the 'how,' the action that will accomplish the goal.

It could be:
My gang is my family and I will carry us to the safe, rich side of town by destroying the gang that controls it now.

or maybe:
My gang is my family and I will carry us to the safe, rich side of town by turning us into a legit, respectable business.

The action really colors the belief, doesn't it? The two beliefs above are totally different in complexion, even though they appear similar.

Either way, with these beliefs, a player could use every scene he's in to push toward his goal, earning Fate every time. And when he resolves the goal, he'll earn a Persona. Then he'll rewrite the belief.

Does this make sense to you?

[gooderguy]

thor, i really appreciate the breakdown. thats what i was missing. i guess i encourage them to create these ideological beleifs and the goals as seperate entities (based on the creating beleifs chapter in the revised ed.)

combining them and adding that action is exactly whats needed. thats a great breakdown (should be added with a big star next to it for the belief burning section of the character burner)

luke, i love the idea of dragging his mentor's corpse around the town. never thought of using it in that way but i'm not sure if the player is using that belief as a 'roach belief,' i really just think he's not sure what the hell a belief does yet. getting that point across is tough, but thor's breakdown i think works for me. (of course, now player 2 only has one belief)

we meet today, so i'll see how the discussion/corpse dragging goes.

[Thor]

thor, i really appreciate the breakdown. thats what i was missing. i guess i encourage them to create these ideological beleifs and the goals as seperate entities (based on the creating beleifs chapter in the revised ed.)

combining them and adding that action is exactly whats needed. thats a great breakdown (should be added with a big star next to it for the belief burning section of the character burner)

Yeah, I hear you. Even though Revised was a big step forward from Classic in how we dealt with Beliefs, it's definitely not perfect. This new way of expressing beliefs is something I've been formulating in the last few weeks. Glad it helped!

[Streamweaver]

Not sure if it'll help but this is what I sent my players about Beliefs when we were coming up with characters:


Burning Wheel puts quiet a bit of power to shape the story and the game in the hands of the players with the idea of getting everyone invested
in something fun....

...I need each of you to list up to 3 Beliefs for each of your
characters. Beliefs should be the bridge between your character
concept and the world they're going to inhabit, they should say
something about how they are going to interact with the world. You
should also use them as an opportunity to direct the action in the game
to things that would be interesting conflicts for you as a player. So a
Templar character with a belief like "I must protect the mechanisms of
the Kingdom of Jerusalem above all else, lest there be no kingdom at
all" implies they want to face off with stories about maintaining the
viability of the kingdom, it sends the action in a specific direction.
Something also to remember about beliefs is a big part of the conflicts
in the game are testing those beliefs to see if they will still believe
that when things get complicated. So it's all well and good if your
trusty Templar wants to protect the Kingdom above all else, but what
happens if it becomes a choice between protecting the kingdom treasury
and protecting some holy pilgrims? No so clear but infinitely interesting.

Later I added ...

My take on beliefs is this is the opportunity for each player to be a
GM. It should try to do two things, it should give your character a
direction and it should basically be a mini plot line at the same time.

Two other things to keep in mind with beliefs.

- Try not to build all your beliefs around a single concept, that leads
to two dimensional characters. It's likely each person in this world
would have a strong opinion about some of the other events and conflicts
going on at the time. An opinion about the crusades themselves, some
conflict back home, something about how the law should be handled,
something about the two popes at the time, something about the king or
queen of Jerusalem, there are lots of things going on.

- Keep in mind that we need up to 3 beliefs, you don't HAVE to have 3.
One or two good beliefs are better than 3 that go nowhere.

The beliefs were hard for them to come up with but they eventually did, and I'm keeping things like beliefs and traits very fluid for the first few sessions. They went back and modified a few once they got to see it in context of a session and after getting a better idea of how the Artha system works. I keep hammering home the idea of the "Artha Engine" in BW and I think they see that now.

[gooderguy]

so, i took all your suggestions and revisited the PC's beliefs last session. everyone seemed willing to look into it, focus on the ideology, goal, action breakdown thor suggested. it was defintely the most tangible approach for the players. they all feel like they understand a little bit more, so this is what they came up with.

Yohan Kirshner, the pacifist performer’s beliefs…
1. I will take it upon myself to create legends out of the great men who go unnoticed.
2. The nobility is no better than the rest of us and peaceful action is the only way to make them understand this.
3. My music can sooth any wound, solve any problem and bring everyone together.

(I'm going to try to create bangs for his beliefs by having the nobility hunt down/kill/torture etc. everyone he makes a legend out of, make sure the nobility is ruthlessly violent every step of the way and surround him with those who don't respond to his music)

Kirin Kharse, the bad accountant/ illegal merchant, yadda yadda scumbag …
1. My gang is my family and I will do whatever it takes to carry us across the bridge.
2. I need my brother's strength and will get him back from that twisted cult by restoring his faith in me.
3. Wealth is the driving force behind all decisions so if the profit of an action is greater than the cost, I am willing.

(I'm going to try and fuel him with really tasteless oppurtunities to advance his gangs position like selling drugs, prostitution, harboring evil cults, turning his back on his friends, etc., have his brother treat him really poorly and try to force him to join the cult, and then pit oppurtunities for wealth against oppurtunities for redeeming his brother)

Here are Ral the brave smuggler’s beliefs …
1. I treasure valor above all and will make a name for myself by living a life of courage.
2. The strong must protect the weak and innocent and I will take down the ruling dynasty and any others who trod on those who cannot protect themselves.
3. People only care for themselves so I must protect myself by never trusting those who have not bled with me.

(i'm going to make sure the only way he can get things done is by being sneaky, have the weak and innocent hate him for being stronger than them and having someone who has bled with him turn against him and backstab him)

i feel like we're more on track, but we spent so much time hashing out the new beliefs that i really haven't had a chance to test them yet. you think my ideas are sound for the beliefs given?

[mtiru]

i feel like we're more on track, but we spent so much time hashing out the new beliefs that i really haven't had a chance to test them yet. you think my ideas are sound for the beliefs given?

i think y'all are on the right track.

your ideas about how to challenge the beliefs are good. just make sure that you allow the player the choice about how he or she wishes to deal with it rather than having a solution in mind.

[Omar]

This should be on the Wiki. Anyone mind if I slap it up there?

[Thor]

This should be on the Wiki. Anyone mind if I slap it up there?

I think someone put the core ideas up here (http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Belief_workshop). Feel free to expand and clarify though!

[Omar]

Way ahead a me, as usual ;)

[Thor]

Way ahead a me, as usual ;)

Wasn't me. I'm not even sure who it was! But definitely feel free to expand upon it if you think more needs to be said. :D

[Drozdal]

This should be on the Wiki. Anyone mind if I slap it up there?Do It, Do it NOW!

[gooderguy]

okay, so we've sort of got the beliefs down, right, and i feel like i'm hitting them succesfully, but now i'm not sure about when/how/why to hand out artha. i feel like i'm hesitating, perhaps being stingy, or perhaps just not comfortable with rewarding artha.

it's almost as if now that we feel we have our beliefs down, players are begging for artha. in the shadow of yesterday, they encourage players to be the ones to say, "that earns me a reward, right?" is that the same in burning wheel? should i wait for the players to ask for it? i dunno, for some reason i feel like artha should be obvious, like 'that scene was awesome, get a fate point for standing up to that guy despite you instinct to turn away from conflict because of your belief' or 'sweet speech, get a point of artha for moving the storyline along cuz of your belief that words are more powerful than the sword' etc.

should artha be flying, or should i be stingy? should i wait for them to ask for it, or only throw it out when I feel it's too cool a scene not to reward?

[luke]

both of the conditions you cited are the correct time for artha. If you're "banging beliefs" then those conditions should be coming up fairly often. When they come up, make sure the player is rewarded.

Think of it this way, the GM doesn't give out Fate points. The player gets Fate points when he plays his Beliefs. The GM's job is to make sure he notes the point.

-L

[rafial]

My personal take: I reward artha on the spot when it's bloody obvious I should, I encourage people to say "I think I should get artha for that", or even better "I think Bob should get artha for that" (and I consider all such requests, but don't necessarily grant them) and at the end of the night I usuallly hold an open review of the list of artha earning situations to see if there is anything we missed.

I personally like to be fairly liberal with the Artha.

[Thor]

How much Artha to give is really going to be up to you (as a group). We like to hand out enough that it's available, but not so much that players have no problem spending it on every roll.

Generally, this is how I play it:

During the session, if a player is faced with a really tough decision that hinges on a Belief but is going to lead to trouble, I'll bribe them:

"If you do [X thing in line with your Beliefs that will open up a ton of trouble for you and the others] I'll give you a point of Fate."

I don't chastise them or even pressure them if they choose to go against it. They just get a reward if they go with it. I also note down if they went against a Belief in a really cool way, so I can nominate them for Moldbreaker later.

At the end of the session, we go around and ask who feels like they played a Belief (explain the reasoning)? Who feels they played against an Instinct? Who used a trait to send the story in an interesting or unexpected direction? Who resolved the goal of a Belief?

Players should be earning between 1 to 3 Fate points from this per session. And they should be earning at least a Persona point at least every few sessions.

Make sure to vote for Workhorse and MVP too.

If that's not a fast enough rate, try breaking each session into two segments. Play half, do Artha. Play the second half, do Artha.

Make sense?

[gooderguy]

yeah, that's how i tried to approach it, but i feel like the end of our session is always a 'oh no, we've got to go rush off to do x. bye.' and then it's all gone. i guess i have to work on wrapping up with a reveiw everytime.

thanks for the breakdown, though, guys. i'll keep it in mind.