Unwieldy Weapons

[Durgil]

At the HârnForum (http://www.harnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3142) there is discussion about the importance of minimum strength with regards to which weapons can be used. BW doesn't address this at all, but I question if maybe a character height to weapon length ratio should some how determine what weapons a character can use with a single hand, can use one-handed but could use more effectively with two hands, and which weapons a character must use with both hands. In BW, this could also be used to adjust the speed of the weapon used?

This is just some ideas that have popped into my head tonight, so I thought I would just seek some opinions here on our forum.

[eruditus]

I am glad you did. This follows nicely with the question about man-sized weapons and my Servitor race I recently posted. I don't think this is a matter of racial traits ar anything like that, rather a ruleset for using weapons that go beyond those appropriate ratios (men usinf troll weapons, hobbit using greatswords, etc.)

[Kublai]

I once considered having a minimum Power per weapon rule. That way, a wussy with a Power 2 couldn't be swinging around a Troll's mattock.

Since saying "no" is discouraged in BW, this seems too rigid. Maybe still have a Power minimum, but incur a weapon speed penalty as well as an obstacle modifier per point of power below the minimum.

That way, as wussy with a Power 2 could wield a Greatsword (min power 4) at a +2 Obstacle as well as it becoming a very unwieldy weapon.

[eruditus]

Yeah, thinking about it I think a Power minimum for weapons is what it would take.

Otherwise I was thinking a more complicated Weapon size:wielder size ruling with Ob penalties.

[luke]

Assume minimum Power for use of all mannish/orcish/elvish/dwarvish weapons listed in BW is B3.

Assume minimum Stature is Midling. Increase obstacles for stepping down, decrease minimum strength penalty stepping up. Dwarves have there own makes of the various weapons. Mannish sized weapons are too big for them.

Of course, this gets into all sorts of dangerous territory about high Power reducing obstacles. Not to mention weapon speed nightmares with giants using Power 3 swords as daggers. This NOT the case in BW. A giant's knife does the same damage in BW relative to his strength as a man's knife. A giant knife and a man's knife both have a Power 1. However, a giant's knife is always going to do more damage, due to the creature's inherent strength.

Ok, that's the end of my postulating on this. Now I ask, have any of you actually encountered this problem in game? Have any GMs actually been pushed beyond this point:
player: "I want to use the giant's spear!"
GM: "That's a pretty big weapon, it's going to cause an obstacle penalty."
player: "ah well, ferget it."

or
GM: "Your veteran captain has Pow B2, a Speed B6 and an Agility B6."
player: ::laughing nervously:: "Yeah, he's fast."
GM: "He's also as strong as an old woman; why don't you knock a point off Speed and Agility and raise your Power to B4."
player: "Come on! You're screwing me!"
GM: "You're only screwing yourself with those stats. And you're cheating and powergaming."
player: ::grumbles and changes stats::
(Later in game, player's character takes a Midi wound in combat and brags how he can suck it up.)

That's as far as it ever got in my game. And I sincerely doubt it's got any farther anywhere else. But please, enlighten me!

-L

[eruditus]

I wish I could say I have not run into this problem, but alas, I have.

Usually the player keeps the Power 2 and complains when he can't suck up a B8.

Additionally, in designing the Servitors which are significantly smaller than any of the sentient races, I do see a need for such things. Power 2 Servitors should be relatively common.

I am with you on every level other than troll weapons doing same damage as other man-sized weapons of the type. Recently one of my PCs was using a Troll Short sword as a broadsword (gernerally power 3). Bigger and designed to battle trolls (or other creatures that are larger) they would inherently do more damage. But this does not seem to mean a whole lot since I give most weapons their own stats anyway. Craftsmanship/quality, size and physics can make each sword type relatively unique. because its only a few numbers I don't really have an issue assigning weapon stats on the fly.

And good luck weilding the Troll greatsword or tower shield.

FYI - the group has only really ever come upon trolls during the day (troll skyspeakers have been keeping the north lands bound in overcast skies, thus avoiding the deadly rays of the sun. Anyway, these day trolls are largely chattel and laborers and a few bellowers that are pretty low on the totem pole. It is only a matter of time before they meet the trolls that come from their caves at night :D

[eruditus]

This sort of thing shouldn't be too challenging.

Servitor Long Swords are mannish short swords, short swords used as dagger for men.

Troll dagger are short swords to men, etc.

[luke]

Usually the player keeps the Power 2 and complains when he can't suck up a B8.


This is not a response to you directly, eruditus, but to all BW GMs who've encountered this problem:

It is my view, and the view of Burning Wheel, that the player actually has no choice in this matter. He was (kind of) politely asked by the GM to modify his stats to better suit the game. If he disregards this information he is breaking a rule as plain as if he started changing his actions mid-volley.

Page 15 of the CB: Discuss your concept with the GM. I highly doubt the player consulted the GM about his extraordinarily weak but fast warrior who wields a battle axe. There are very few GMs who willingly let such concepts fly. The GM clears concepts, period.


As to your other points:
Troll weapons would be designed for troll hands. Smaller troll weapons would have completely different weight and balance than a mannish weapon of the same size. You can't take a small sword and just magically enlarge it and call it a long sword. Long swords and broad swords have different shape, temper and balance than smaller blades. Not to mention different tangs and hilts.

A non-massive statured creature just isn't going to be able get anything out of a massive statured weapon. And vice versa, a troll isn't going to be able to maximize the damage of a dwarvish battle axe, to him it's going to act like a rock or something.

Good, that's one example of actual play. I think simply assigning reasonable obstacle penalties on the fly does the trick.

-L

ps: good to have you back, eru! been no one to wrangle with the past few weeks!

[eruditus]

Wrangle away :)

One of the perks of working... constant access to the web. When I am not working I am too busy doing other stuff :lol:

[Durgil]

Coming to BW with a background in TRoS (wouldn'y that be a cool college :wink: ), I don't think that Strength or in the case of BW Power has as much to do with utilizing a weapon as does stature. I also don't think that the warrior wanting to use a Troll sword comes up very often. I plan on running a Middle-earth like campaign, and I can invision a Hobbit or Dwarf coming across a long sword (as they are written up in TRoS) and wanting to use it. Do I force him to use it as a man would use a greatsword with both hands or are two hands optional? I guess since a sword is a sword in BW, you really don't have to deal with this problem. If I just answered my own question, I guess that will be good enough. I just thought I'd try to explain a little about where I'm coming from with all of this.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone,

[eruditus]

I think such conversations are important for a campaign such as mine. high Fantasy campaigns, its not a big deal. This is why they have magic items autosizing to their wearer in D&D. The details are not important to the genre. However, I run a detail oriented game, and I like the mechanics to match the in game experiences.

Do I do this as a GM on the fly? Yes. But its probably a good idea to set it to paper as well.

To continue my discussion about Troll Weapon damage:

I feel that in the hands of even the weakest troll in the army (yes, my trolls form army's - its scary) is going to do more damage with his great sword than a man will do with his own greatsword. Probably by one power. Thus I will probably claim that larger weapons Power are increased by one. A longsword in a troll's hands is just a longsword to a Troll, however, its size indicates that its a greatsword to the man.

As such, when trolls fight, they do so more like men fighting, killing each other relatively quickly, not just due to power, but due to using weapons that are meant to cut through their massive scaly bodies yet when we fight them it seems to take forever.

However, I understand what Luke is saying in this and I would have to agree that using a Troll sword would not benefit the user so significantly due to the width of the haft, the breadth of the hilt and the thickness of the blade. So a new skill would then be in order - Troll Weapon Training :) As such, orc weapon training, elf weapon training, dwarf weapon training and man weapon training would be welcome skills for swinging about that which was not originally designed for your hands.