testing, pros and cons

[gooderguy]

okay, so now that i feel we, as a group new to the game, have a pretty solid grasp on game mechanics, etc. i've begun to address certain aspects of penalties for failed tests.

basically, the first few games, to get the feel of the mechanics, i let the players test when applicable. i enforced the let it ride rules, but didn't necessarily punish them when they fail. so now, i'm trying to put the 'if you fail' consequences down. for instance, two players with 1 resource between the two of them needed to find a doctor to treat a midi wound. they found a doctor, but he wasn't the best (4 surgery skill).

then i was like, you have to make a ob2 resources test. (obviously they would fail and he wouldn't provide the service or something)

one of the players came up with the idea to use his disguise skill Ex5 to dress up as a wealthy man, then use his persuade skill Ex4 to convince the doctor he'd come around with the money the next day. i said, that's awesome, it'll be a linked test, so if you fail, the doctor is gonna be pissed and botch the treatment on purpose. (resulting in -1D to one of the player's stats)

they decided not to do it, even though it would be fun, cool, interesting, etc. (and only be a routine test) this has happened more than once, although this was the most disapointing instance.

i feel like imposing 'consequences' on failed tests are backfiring on me. perhaps my consequences are too steep, or maybe this is a common part of the game.

[mtiru]

hmm. i had this happen last night in a serpent sun game.

sometimes, the GMs stakes cause the player to back down. they say, "yeah, i didn't think you were going to make it that hard."

what you want to do is ask them to raise their stakes as well, so that what they're going to get is worth the risk.

this is part of setting good stakes for every conflict.

[ChrisG]

M, cool idea. I've often run into this situation--the player wants to do something cool, I set the Ob... and he says, "oh okay, nevermind".

Wah wah.

So what do you mean by "ask him to raise his stakes"... feel free to use the above example to illustrate. I have some ideas, but want to hear what you're saying first.

[luke]

That's funny. I'm a tyrant. I often say, "What do you mean, 'never mind'?! You wanted this conflict; those are the consequences. Roll the damn dice!"

-L

[gooderguy]

abzu, that might work in cuba where you guys game, but i'm still hanging out with che and friends in the leper colony. most of us just met, and still haven't quite broken the ice all the way. it took me 2 months to put a group together. i want them to like your game, not be ready to play assasinate the dicatator .... yet

i like the sounds of mtiru's raising the stakes, but i'm not sure how. in my example, what do you suggest?

[johnstone]

three things:

a. sweeten the pot. tell them if they succeed, they get just a little bit more than they asked for, especially if it's a little more that makes their ears perk up.

b. make the consequences less immediate and even abstracted from the current situation. in your above example, why would the doctor botch his healing on purpose? if he's fooled by the disguise, he performs the operation, if he's not, he summons the police. if he's not payed later (very probable), he will sue them in court. the players think, lawsuit? who cares! and you have a whole subplot to ressurect later on and dog them with for years.

c. only pull that out when the players really, really want something. if you want something bad, and the GM pulls out "the consequences" it's not about whether or not you roll - it's about whether you have enough Artha or not.

[quixoteles]

Color me guilty! I should of made that impossible circles ob 6 test! I got the pussycat cap that evening after that game in my other group and I ended up playing a coward in starship troopers. For shame, for shame...

How could any player in their right mind not take up the chance to have an extra enemy! I regret not having the colberts to make that roll. Please, please, let me take that roll again man I'm sorry!

[luke]

Color me guilty! I should of made that impossible circles ob 6 test! I got the pussycat cap that evening after that game in my other group and I ended up playing a coward in starship troopers. For shame, for shame...

How could any player in their right mind not take up the chance to have an extra enemy! I regret not having the colberts to make that roll. Please, please, let me take that roll again man I'm sorry!

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Having an enemy in an rpg is bad why? Especially an enemy that you created?

-L

[quixoteles]

Exactly L. Now I really want that villian, and I am not sure I can make the roll again.

I got sudden nesscarry workI have to do so I can't make it to this group this week. But is it still bothering me?

Hell yes it is.

I should of taken that into account and made up a killer NPC priestess of the Star people on the spot. I am again given the coward hat.

[cawshis]

In the few games I've tried to run with less-than-experienced players, I go with the carrot approach, especially if a cool conflict can come out of it. Then I beat him with a stick…alla abzu.

I've only run BW Pirate games, so my example will be from there.

So we've got ship of near-mutiny pirates under the sway of the PC jesuit hostage spouting damanation and a PC captain who's belief is "My ship isn't a democracy. The captain's word is law."

The captain needs to get his crew under control as the murmurs are getting too loud. He says to me, "I want to intimidate the crew! Use my skill to make them see that there is worse things on this ship than a future in hell!" He then describes to me how he's going to discipline one of the louder pirates by holding him down and cutting out his tongue. Yikes!

I say okay. If you succeed at this roll, the jesuit will have lost his power over them as they're now more terrified of you than of Hell. Thing is….you fail, there is going to be a mutiny right then and there…and you'll be alone when the stabbing starts. I did this cause he was intentionally avoiding DoW the Jesuit who had worked his beliefs and skills hard to gain control of the ship. Oh and it's also going to be Obs 6.

No way is the captain going to succeed at that without burning all his artha and hoping for a wink from Lady Luck. So he looks like he's going to back down. I offer him a persona point if he goes for it. Still nothing. I say a persona and a fate point. Still nothing. I then say, what's it going to take?

He says lower the obstacle. I say, no way. He says pleeeeesseeee. I say, nope. Here's the stick: You're asking for control of a ship that you're going to lose and you want an easy roll? Come on! This is it! This is not only your belief, but your ship! This jesuit is taking your ship, questioning your authority and you've let it get this bad, ignoring him and his words! Worse than that, these pirates have seen you dodge the jesuit on every occasion! It's going to take more than some simple torturing to scare these guys…you got to terrify them! What are you playing for if you don't want this badly? What kind of captain are you?

The jesuit player (God bless him) offers something awesome (it was getting towards the end of the session and he's the best player I got)….he says "how about if you succeed the roll, there is a mutiny anyway? But the fight is lopsided in your favor? Maybe the degree by which you fail determines how lopsided the fight is? Like if you fail by one, you might still have a chance to fight your way to gaining back the ship?"

This got the captain (and the jesuit a point of fate for such a great suggestion) on board…so to speak. He failed the roll miserably and the mutiny commenced. In the ensuing fight, he was killed by another PC, but managed to shoot the Jesuit first. It was bloody, but the captain player got to play his belief hardcore. And he got to go down fighting instead of being killed by a mob of pirates after a failed roll.

I really need to set up a new session with those guys….or just play more. I love BW.

Yeah so enough AP. It's all about working out stakes that everyone can sign on to…where even failure has some sort of reward. I'll admit this is the tough and you sort of get the hang of it after a while of playing…I haven't really mastered it, but luckily I'm not afraid to take a suggestion from another player at the table. Remember the mantra:

Failure = Successful Story
Success = Successful Story

In your example, I'd have said, if you fail the resources roll, the doctor still does the surgery as he's a compassionate guy (success), but when he finds out you can't pay (failure)…you find out that he's got friends in high places. What that involves, I'll let you know.

Mwahahaha!

[khelek]

What little I have had a chance to play often had the player and GM negociate the Stake. Sometimes I have seen the GM ask the player what are the concequences of the failed roll, then modifiy it a little up or down.

They want to full the Doc? then ask them what happens if they fail?

The players will abide by it (they made it up) and are sometimes more crule than the GM would be anyways. but who can complain when you dig your
own grave