I am back from our four month playtest! (Our impressions)

[Digital Apex]

I wanted to come to the boards and write to everyone that I am not dead nor did I drop off the face of the earth. I stopped coming to the boards because I wanted to do a complete run through and shake down before I posted again. I received my books back in August and have been running a BW game since then. We completed a series of adventures (one 8 hour session every Wednesday for 14 weeks) last night.

First the good part: The Burning Wheel is wonderful! The Character Burner is the BEST book in roleplaying today and nothing compares to it! The skill system is the best thing we have played with, ever. My four players LOVE most everything about BW. Advancement is so fluid and easy we almost cried. Traits everyone loves. Round in the Belly we never figured out but it saved the life of one of the players when he had a sword in his Round Belly. If you read this and do not own the Burning Wheel you need to get you will never regret it. The new Artha rules are great BTW we started using them instead of the ones from the book 2 sessions into the game and they work wonderfully. I could not have hoped for more except.......

Now the Bad: AND ITS ONLY ONE THING! Is there another way of doing the scripting system to make it a little more simple and fluid? Its really cumbersome at times, we have tried it for awhile now but combat is still awkward and "not smooth". My group is not tactically inclined so have avoided combat for the last 9 sessions. The Orc Warrior in the group started using his Axe skill as a form of intimidation to AVOID combat! Don't get me wrong, for some people it might work well but for us its... difficult to say the least. It would be nice to have such a descriptive combat system that did not rely on smart decisions by the players and could focus on letting the dice be the players decision making in combat. That way a person could be a great swordsman without knowing HOW to be one (or how to script one). I lost 5 characters in my game in the first 3 sessions and everyone was getting depressed about it. We worked around it as best we could but I would ask is there an alternative system you could suggest? Combat skills, armor, ranged weapons, IMS, Martial Actions, Injury all are fine. Scripting the way it is, movement (the paces measurement is fine), regular speech (NOT incantations we love that), and volleys are a pain though. Its the only thing that makes BW less than perfect.

Otherwise we LOVE the BW and will be supporting it and ordering another copy of it here shortly. The way scripting is handled is our only complaint. We will never use another system but we need help with the scripting to make BW perfect.

Glad to be back,
Jesse

[Kublai]

Wow! :shock: :D

Welcome to the fold, once again, DigitalApex! Your words are so appreciated!

As for scripting, have you tried combat without scripting? Occassionally we do this, but only because we are very familiar with the system.

Also, it's great that you are enjoying the new artha system. I have developed a fine appreciation for its "Epiphany" progression, although I admit this liking took a LONG time to take root. I don't like changes!

Are you using the new Wound rules, as well?

[Digital Apex]

Wow! :shock: :D

Welcome to the fold, once again, DigitalApex! Your words are so appreciated!

As for scripting, have you tried combat without scripting? Occassionally we do this, but only because we are very familiar with the system.

Also, it's great that you are enjoying the new artha system. I have developed a fine appreciation for its "Epiphany" progression, although I admit this liking took a LONG time to take root. I don't like changes!

Are you using the new Wound rules, as well?

Combat without scripting... I might give it a shot. I like the dynamics of what scripts can do, I just wish it was not so blind and preplanned.

New wound rules?!?!?!? Where?

Oh one more thing, how goes the plan for sci-fi BW?

[Kublai]

New Wound rules:
http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=226


Also, I think that perhaps using the new script sheet might make the decision making process easier. It's just like learning a new language really, albeit a very small language. I am sure your players will get used to it and appreciate it eventually. Perhaps just allow them the basic martial actions until they are comfortable?

New Script Sheet
http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/BW_scriptsheeet_r3.pdf

[luke]

Wow, what a great post! Thanks, Jesse.

I think it's great you guys haven't nailed down scripting. I know I'm strange. Personally, I do think you'll come to appreciate it. But before I go into any reasons why or a diatribe of defense, why don't you tell us what problems you've been having?

You called it, "slow, choppy, blind and preplanned". Some folks would definitely agree with you. However, many of us script veterans, a quite few newbies, find quite the opposite in the script system.

So let's hash it out. Tell us about your games and some of the actual difficulties you've encountered. Please feel free to be specific and detailed.

Also, did you say you have a mixed orc/non-orc group? That's cool! Tell us about it in the Games forum.

rock on!
-L

[Digital Apex]

Abzu, I hate you (Editor: Far from it), I hate you more then I will ever know (Ed. again: Not really). To quell this burning rage will you please make a EMAIL LIST so when you UPDATE and ADD things to the BW we can be INFORMED! :evil: :P (Another Ed.: This is a joke so dont be mad at him/me)

If we would have had the new script sheets, things would have been MUCH easier then what they have been... I am going to try a few more sessions with this new sheet (that we SHOULD have been notified of) (Ed. #4: You could have checked) and see if things improve.

(I am really not mad at you, its supposed to be funny and humorus). Although, an update list would make things easier...

Ok..... MAYBE I could have visited the site during my hiatus. But when trying the Against the Giants series from old AD&D with BW. (Side note: Elves Giants, and Orcs do not mix well I found out.) It gets VERY involved and consumes alot of time converting the material, half of which I had to make up. (other side note: You need more Badguys, Beasts, and Monsters)

Most of our problem with scripting was trying to figure out what we could do and then take time from the game to write them down... So this new sheet should help. I will give it a go on Saturday.


One last thing Abzu, is there a revised Burning Wheel with all of the additions and updates?

If not can you make one? If not can I order another copy of the BW and have you stick "loose pages" of updates and errata in it?

If not can I pay you the full cost for a single completely updated copy plus 20 dollars for a Unique edition?

If not can I at least get an another autographed copy with more of the same cool stuff that was in the last one?

If not I am going to cry.... :cry:

Thanks

P.S. I am going to put up a review of BW on a few RPG sites. It will be a few weeks before I can finish it (need to use the new script sheet first) but I wanted to give you a heads up on it. It was already finished but the new Summary of Actions sheet threw a monkey wrench into EVERYTHING....

[luke]

Ok..... MAYBE I could have visited the site during my hiatus. But when trying the Against the Giants series from old AD&D with BW. (Side note: Elves Giants, and Orcs do not mix well I found out.)

OMG!! YOU DIDN'T! DON"T TELL ME YOU DID THIS? PLEASE, SAY NO! AGH!

THE CURSE, DO YOU HEAR?! THE CURSE! Tell them Kublai! Tell them! LISTEN TO ME ALL: DO NOT EVER RUN AGAINST THE GIANTS IN BURNING WHEEL such an endeavor is doomed from the start.

:cry:

::cue sad gypsy music::
One of the earliest adventures I ever ran in BW was a conversion of Against the Giants. It was, perhaps, one of the WORST nights of my life. In fact, it nearly broke me. I couldn't run a game for months after that.

So, if you really and truly have been running ATG (G1-3?) with BW I recommend you count your scars, lick your wounds, swallow your tears and try another, more sane adventure.

Now I understand why you lost so many characters so quickly.

:cry:

I highly recommend Against the Cult of the Reptile God (N1?) for converting over to BW. It really works well. Honestly, I am surprised you didn't send the books back to me shredded in a ziplock after running that. It is BW bane! BW Giants are not at all like DnD Giants! One punch and you are DEAD.

:cry:


(other side note: You need more Badguys, Beasts, and Monsters)

And I hear your pain, I hear your cries! You are the voice of the people! And I heed that voice! Testify!

I am in the process of cooking up the Monster Burner for all of your monstrous/bad guy needs. (editors note: don't even ask when it is going to be done. it's harder than it looks. it'll be done as soon as possible.)

And I am planning on assembling a BW annual before GenCon that will include all the alternates, variants, additions and errata. Probably the demo adventures as well!

So sit tight, you've come this far (through so much!), I think you will be well pleased with where we are going.

-L

ps: are you sure you don't want to talk about the issues you had with scripting? or is that new script sheet really the answer to your dreams?

pps: i am sorry you missed out on the updates, but that's my sneaky trick. I keep adding stuff and updating the website so you will come back and visit us. Four months is too long. I thought you hated us!

[Digital Apex]

OMG!! YOU DIDN'T! DON"T TELL ME YOU DID THIS? PLEASE, SAY NO! AGH!

We got through G1 & G2, and we only had 1 combat in G2... :shock: It was crazy. It IS one of the best series from AD&D, but just really hard for BW.


And I hear your pain, I hear your cries! You are the voice of the people! And I heed that voice! Testify!

You like WWE?


I am in the process of cooking up the Monster Burner for all of your monstrous/bad guy needs. (editors note: don't even ask when it is going to be done. it's harder than it looks. it'll be done as soon as possible.)

I will offer my help after the holidays


And I am planning on assembling a BW annual before GenCon that will include all the alternates, variants, additions and errata. Probably the demo adventures as well!

That is good to hear, although I would like to have a full list of errata in one place on a PDF. That way we could print it out on a sticker sheet, cut the corrected text out and add it to the book. It would be really great if you could format the errata like the BW book so it would be easier to add it to the books.

BTW where IS all the errata?


ps: are you sure you don't want to talk about the issues you had with scripting? or is that new script sheet really the answer to your dreams?

Its not the answer but its a BIG improvement and makes things TONS more clear. I wanted to try every avenue before coming to the boards and mentioning this to you. I will try a home brewed adventure and see how scripting goes from there.

[luke]

That is good to hear, although I would like to have a full list of errata in one place on a PDF. That way we could print it out on a sticker sheet, cut the corrected text out and add it to the book. It would be really great if you could format the errata like the BW book so it would be easier to add it to the books. BTW where IS all the errata?

the "annual" will be in the same lay out and font as the books.

The errata is right here, in the forums. you can also find little bits here: http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=10&topic=&allstories=1


Its not the answer but its a BIG improvement and makes things TONS more clear. I wanted to try every avenue before coming to the boards and mentioning this to you. I will try a home brewed adventure and see how scripting goes from there.

One issue that some folks have with the alternate script sheets is ordering your actions in that list. I recommend, for volleys with multiple actions, numbering the actions (1, 2, or 3!) instead of just checking them off.

let me know how it goes.
-L