Burning an established setting

[Marune]

Hi,

A player of my current RPG group talked to me about this game, and after reading a bit about it, I've become interested in ordering it. My goal is to adapt the setting I use for my game for BW.

This setting is a very popular one from a mainstream game, but please answer with only in head the description I’ll do in this thread.

The people of this setting (including man, dwarf, elf, gnome, and the like) are similar in mindset and advancement to the men of the 13/14th century. City-states are common and nations on the increase as more of the wild lands are pushed back and gathered under a single king or government. Skills such as metalworking, farming, and craft industry are common in the civilized lands, so that swords and heavy metal armor are all-too available to the warrior. Literacy and the quest for knowledge in on the rise, with the recent introduction of printed hand-bills. The merchants-class is increasing in both wealth and power as more markets and resources open up. Faith, while not as dominant as in Europe of this period, is a major force in the lives of the people.

Against the young human lands and the ancient refuges of the older races stand ranged a great numbers of enemies. Foremost among these are the savage peoples (orcs, ogres, trolls and goblins) but these lands are home to creature far more malevolent, cruel and calculating. From the de deeps of the earth, terrible creatures dream of enslaving the surface lands and feasting on human cattle. Finally, the most dangerous threat to human cities and realms must be reserved for the most terrible and awesome creatures of these lands, the dragons.

The land is steeped in magic. It permeates the entire world. Fallen empires thousands of years old left magical gates and wrecked towers scattered across the landscape that are still filled with potent enchantments. Haughty wizards whose spells can lay low entire armies plot against each other as they pursue their studies into ever more powerful and more dangerous fields of arcane lone. Deities channel divine energy through their mortal agents to advance the causes that interest them. Even if most people never learn to cast a spell, magic touches their lives in way they do not always see.

The history of these lands is dominated by the cyclic rise and cataclysmic destruction of empire founded on knowledge of the intricacies of magic. Magic both old and strong still slumbers in the wreckage of these ancient realms. Every year some new marvel or magical abomination that should never see the light of the day is discovered.

Finally, the setting is a vast, very detailed world with a long and still-vigorously-unfolding history, and many, many characters. The setting IS those characters, and if a “game master” doesn't present it as a vast, ever-changing webwork of intrigues and clashing interests, where caravans move from A to B for good reasons, and rulers (unless mad) don't operate in a vacuum of whims but grapple with issues (the competing interests of their subjects, not just attacks from rival realms) small and large every day, the “game master” isn't really showing players the setting.

After reading this, even if you don't like it (because of magic, etc.) tell me if it could be made (with some home tweaks) with BW.

If you want more details about an aspect of the setting, ask for it.

[Thor]

Hi Marune,

I think everything you described could be run out of the box, though you'll probably want the Monster Burner for the Dragons and the Trolls.

The only thing you might have to tweak on a little bit is Magic. You'll need to burn up some more powerful spells for your Archmages. But that isn't too hard. You'll just need to download the Abstractions PDF from the Burning Wiki (http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=purge)

[zabieru]

Oh, also? You'll find that in BW as in history, swords are a poor counter to articulated plate. Remind your players to look at axes. It's no big deal, but you mentioned swords up above, so I figured I'd say something.

[Thor]

Oh, also? You'll find that in BW as in history, swords are a poor counter to articulated plate. Remind your players to look at axes. It's no big deal, but you mentioned swords up above, so I figured I'd say something.

Axes are nice. But Great Maces are where it's at! The pinnacle of anti-armor technology (at least back in the day).

Lances are also TEH RAWK in BW. :D

[Marune]

Well, currently I'm not into so such small details.

I'm more concerned with the magic level of the setting, handling magical items in particular.

Also, I'm looking to understand how to run complex monsters (like flying dragons) in combat. (Maybe Monster burner would answer it).

I got a look at BW Classic, and one thing I disliked was two completely different mechanics for sorcery and faith.

[zabieru]

There's some magical item stuff in the Elven LPs, basically you want to either give the item a Trait or imbue it with a spell.

Complex monsters, yeah, you want the MonBu. Actually you want the MonBu, period. It's everything you need for any kind of conversion.

Sorcery and Faith are different things in BW. Faith is emotional magic, sorcery is academic. You could go two ways with that in your conversion: Either leave it as-is, make Faith idioms specific to the given god, and possibly look at adjusting the Obstacles to fit what you're going for, or you could make clerical magic an alternate kind of Sorcery, remove Faith from the game, and just give clerics a different set of spells.

The second approach is more true to the rules, but I think the first has a lot of potential in terms of suggesting that this is power that really flows from the god and enforces his or her will, which is true to the setting.

The other thing you'll need to look at is Elven spell-songs. It's the same issue again, Elves don't use human Sorcery in BW, they have their own kind of thing. I think once you see how it works, you'll really like it, but you might still opt to take it away and just let them use Sorcery.

Oh, big problem: In BW, humans are not balanced against Elves and Dwarves. A mixed party could be a problem. Anyone have advice for dealing with that?

[Yagathai]

Balance? Balance is for the soft and weak!

That being said, let the humans have an extra LP or two, and put a cap on the Elf and Dwarf resources. It won't fix things entirely, but it will go some way towards evening things out.

[stormsweeper]

Differences between BW and an unnamed fantasy game regarding magic:

- In BW, only Humans have Sorcery (maybe Roden do?), Dwarves, Orcs, and Elves have idiom-specific abilities.

- Only Elves and Dwarves can make magic items, and they mostly fall in idiom for the race. There is an Enchanting skill, but no Enchanting rules for Humans

- Every kind of magic is different.


Converting an existing campaign could be bumpy for any of those reasons.

[Marune]

Differences between BW and an unnamed fantasy game regarding magic:

- In BW, only Humans have Sorcery (maybe Roden do?), Dwarves, Orcs, and Elves have idiom-specific abilities.

- Only Elves and Dwarves can make magic items, and they mostly fall in idiom for the race. There is an Enchanting skill, but no Enchanting rules for Humans

And it would be a big problem to change those ? For which reasons ?

I don't say I don't want to give access to race-specific subset of Magic, but I want to all give them access to the "basic one" a.k.a. sorcery.

[zabieru]

Changing Enchanting would be pretty easy, though probably unnecessary (how often do your players or NPCs create items in play? You only need rules if it is the center of a conflict). As for replacing Elven and Dwarven natural magic with Sorcery? Try it out. Take a look at what Elves and Dwarves have now, burn some characters, and see how you like it. I've found it to be much more satisfying than having them be mages just like humans, but you might feel differently.

[stormsweeper]

Differences between BW and an unnamed fantasy game regarding magic:

- In BW, only Humans have Sorcery (maybe Roden do?), Dwarves, Orcs, and Elves have idiom-specific abilities.

- Only Elves and Dwarves can make magic items, and they mostly fall in idiom for the race. There is an Enchanting skill, but no Enchanting rules for Humans

And it would be a big problem to change those ? For which reasons ?

I don't say I don't want to give access to race-specific subset of Magic, but I want to all give them access to the "basic one" a.k.a. sorcery.

This is stuff that won't make too much sense until you've got the books:
Technically you could give them Sorcery, but they'd need to buy a trait and the skill, and they're unlikely to have enough spare trait points for the latter.

You could make versions of the Sorcerous lifepaths for Elves and Dwarves, though. The exact rules for LP creation are in the Monster Burner supplement, but you could probably reverse-engineer how it's done from the existing lifepaths.

[Marune]

You could make versions of the Sorcerous lifepaths for Elves and Dwarves, though. The exact rules for LP creation are in the Monster Burner supplement, but you could probably reverse-engineer how it's done from the existing lifepaths.

I already plan to create LP to match the setting races.

Before ordering, I wanted to see if there was some big problems easy to spot in my description of the setting. (Of course some may have guessed which one it is and if they want to talk directly about it's conversion, they can PM me).

[luke]

Have you checked out Jihad?
http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Jihad.pdf

This is, at minimum, what you would have to do in order to create a viable, replayable setting in BW. It's actually not hard, but NO ONE has managed to do it yet.

I strongly urge you to buy and play this game because you want to play this game. If you're interested in designing your own setting from scratch, and you haven't yet invested in a game, design your own. It'll be more about your setting than any other game out there.

-L

[Marune]

Have you checked out Jihad?
http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Jihad.pdf

This is, at minimum, what you would have to do in order to create a viable, replayable setting in BW. It's actually not hard, but NO ONE has managed to do it yet.

Ok I'll use it as "template" to organize my conversion notes.



I strongly urge you to buy and play this game because you want to play this game. If you're interested in designing your own setting from scratch, and you haven't yet invested in a game, design your own. It'll be more about your setting than any other game out there.

Well, first, except for that sorcery vs faith thing, I like pretty much what I have seen (BW classic) second, at 45$ (with M.B.) I don't risk much!

How much the final result will be different from BW "core", I don't know yet, but I would be surprised it will be much different. I would post my setting conversion online, but I fear it would be illegual (copyright issues).

Edit : My order is done.

[Marune]

The Limits of this System
There are a few popular spell effects that do not or cannot exist in the
scope of these rules: Teleportation, Time Control and Life Creation.
These phenomena are beyond the scope of power of abstractions.


Does that mean that BW sorcery shouldn't include these kinds of spells, or only not via the Abstraction system ?

[DaGreatJL]

I don't say I don't want to give access to race-specific subset of Magic, but I want to all give them access to the "basic one" a.k.a. sorcery.

Why?
In Burning Wheel, all of the races have different qualities that set them apart. Some of these are access to abilities that the other races do not get. Elves have Spell Songs, which are learned as skills, produce powerful magical effects, and fascinate all who watch. This magic is very common among them, such that it permeates much of their lives. They are also ageless and immortal, and very, very potent; only their Grief can fell them.

Dwarves do not have what would be called "magic" in the traditional sense; however, they can create wonders of art and craftsmanship that are superior to any other race's ability, to a point that IS magical. Also, their Greed can empower them to great feats.

Orcs live to make war, pillage, rape, and burn. And they are good at it. A horde of experienced Orcs, working in concert, drawing on the power of their Hatred, are a force of destruction. And those who give in to their Hatred and learn to call upon the magic of Blood and Darkness, literally blotting out the sun and calling upon beasts that serve the Dark.

With all of these incredible abilities at their disposal, humans can seem pretty tame. The magic they can call on is rare, and appears in only a select few of their number. But it is AWESOME. And I don't mean that in a "dude, awesome" way. I mean it in a warp-mens-minds, rain-down-fire-on-your-enemies, universe-is-mine-to-command kind of way. Sorcery is more versitile than the magics of the other races. And this is truly the "magic" of humans, because they are not ruled by their emotions in the same way that the other races are. And to give that to the other races would, well, be a disservice to man. Sorcery is not "basic magic". It is Human's racial magic. If this doesn't fit within what you want in a role-playing game, then Burning Wheel probably isn't for you.

[Thor]

Hey guys. Hold up. I think at this point, we've got to wait until the books arrive and Marune has a chance to read them. I think there's a lot that can be done to fit the setting into the game, but it's no use discussing/arguing about possibilities.

Marune, let's revisit this thread when you've had a chance to look the game over and are ready to get down to the specifics of actually making the setting ready.

cheers!

[Marune]

I tought that BW was a generic rpg, but if I don't have "LOTR" elves, dwarves and orcs I cannot use the game ? Well..

[Iskander]

I tought that BW was a generic rpg, but if I don't have "LOTR" elves, dwarves and orcs I cannot use the game ? Well..
:shock: I seriously hope nobody has been daft enough to say that here; it's not true. You can drift what you like!

[stormsweeper]

I would say it's less generic than Rolemaster or D&D, though. The implied setting has a definite Tolkien influence. Many settings for D&D just have Elves as humans that live a long time and have ears and kewl elf powerz, since that's how the game sets them up. For a D&D conversion there's a few different ways to adapt BW, but you will have to adapt it. It won't do it right out of the box, as they were built with different presumptions about the "generic" world.

Now, if you're converting existing characters, a lot of this is academic, since you probably want to burn them as "monsters" instead of trying to recreate them with lifepaths.

I'm presuming you're talking about Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms here? (Note: WotC can't sue you for talking about the setting, or even working out a conversion, as long as you limit the use of their material.)

[Marune]

I would say it's less generic than Rolemaster or D&D, though. The implied setting has a definite Tolkien influence. Many settings for D&D just have Elves as humans that live a long time and have ears and kewl elf powerz, since that's how the game sets them up. For a D&D conversion there's a few different ways to adapt BW, but you will have to adapt it. It won't do it right out of the box, as they were built with different presumptions about the "generic" world.

Can you be more specific, what are those presumptions, etc.



Now, if you're converting existing characters, a lot of this is academic, since you probably want to burn them as "monsters" instead of trying to recreate them with lifepaths.

I'll not do the conversion of a running campaign. I talk about converting the setting crunch to BW crunch.



I'm presuming you're talking about Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms here? (Note: WotC can't sue you for talking about the setting, or even working out a conversion, as long as you limit the use of their material.)

Hehe, ok it's Forgotten Realms, at first I didn't want to say it, because so many people have false believes about this setting... the description in the first post was made with stuff from 1e. 3e and Greenwood (creator) quotes.

[stormsweeper]

Can you be more specific, what are those presumptions, etc.

Well, it will help if you've read Tolkien's creation story is usually printed along with The Silmarillion. Synopsis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainulindal%C3%AB

In BW, Elves and Dwarves are mostly alien to mankind, and have different abilities and mores, while D&D has had them be more or less the same as humans, with little differences on the edges.

[Marune]

Well, I have read LOTR/Silmarillion a couple of time each, that's not the problem.

To be clear, I don't plan to use elf/dwarf/orc as they are in core BW, nor exactly as they are in the current D&D edition. My goal is to be true the the setting.

[Thor]

Well, I have read LOTR/Silmarillion a couple of time each, that's not the problem.

To be clear, I don't plan to use elf/dwarf/orc as they are in core BW, nor exactly as they are in the current D&D edition. My goal is to be true the the setting.

Perfectly doable with the Monster Burner, though it might require a bit of work.

[stormsweeper]

Well, I have read LOTR/Silmarillion a couple of time each, that's not the problem.

To be clear, I don't plan to use elf/dwarf/orc as they are in core BW, nor exactly as they are in the current D&D edition. My goal is to be true the the setting.

Fair enough, that just means you'll be making up everything that isn't human! :D Although my suggestion would probably be just to make them "humans" with special trait packages and some specific settings. (again, stuff that will make more sense once you see the books).

[Marune]

Fair enough, that just means you'll be making up everything that isn't human! :D Although my suggestion would probably be just to make them "humans" with special trait packages and some specific settings. (again, stuff that will make more sense once you see the books).

Well, I hope that the Monster Burner will help me to create monster/races (with guidelines and exemples).

[stormsweeper]

The Monster Burner should be called The Burning Wheel Construction Kit! Besides three new races and a slew of beasties, it has the rules and guidelines for making new beasts, races ("stocks"), lifepaths, traits, skills, etc.

[Thor]

Besides three new races and a slew of beasties, it has the rules and guidelines for making new beasts, races ("stocks"), lifepaths, traits, skills, etc.

Four! Four new races! ha ha ha ha ha!

(Roden, Trolls, Great Spiders, Great Wolves)

[Durgil]

Don't forget the Monstrous Magic Burner! :wink:

page 98 of the Monster Burner :roll:

[Marune]

After reading many old threads, many on how lethal is the Fight mechanics, I wonder why there is no healing "magic" in BW core ?

Of course I want to include healing magic in my setting conversion, and I'm looking how to handle it to make it less effective than in D&D.

Does the "wounds can re-open" stayed in BW revised ?

[luke]

After reading many old threads, many on how lethal is the Fight mechanics, I wonder why there is no healing "magic" in BW core ?


Because that undermines what the fights are about in BW. Fights are about risking your life and health for what you believe in. If you're just going to be CLW'd or rezzered after the fight, there's no risk and the fight becomes a pointless exercise.

-L

[Marune]

Because that undermines what the fights are about in BW. Fights are about risking your life and health for what you believe in. If you're just going to be CLW'd or rezzered after the fight, there's no risk and the fight becomes a pointless exercise.
-L

Yeah, I don't know why I asked it :wink: `

Well, I'll try to come up with something less effective than D&D, and with the wound categories of BW, I think it will be easy. (No way to cure a traumatic(?) wound with a magical potion).

Also, in some FR novels we see that healing magic works like in BW, if damage is done again, the old wound (cured by magic) can be opened again.

[Bastoche]

I'm the corruptor from that RPG group :twisted:

I only wanted to comment about healing magic. The idea would be to make these spells somewhat taxing in such a way that casting them "are about risking your life and health for what you believe in." It's a win-win situation :D

Opinions?

futhremore, one has to figure out if "healing magic" got fudged in the setting because of D&D rules or if it was "there" in the first place...

[Marune]

The idea would be to make these spells somewhat taxing in such a way that casting them "are about risking your life and health for what you believe in."

For Raise Dead/Regeneration and other critical thing.

Healing superficial wounds isn't a big request for a God afterall.


futhremore, one has to figure out if "healing magic" got fudged in the setting because of D&D rules or if it was "there" in the first place...

I would say that magic can cure in the setting, regardless of D&D. Clerics are the only healer is a D&D thing.

[Thor]

After reading many old threads, many on how lethal is the Fight mechanics, I wonder why there is no healing "magic" in BW core ?

Of course I want to include healing magic in my setting conversion, and I'm looking how to handle it to make it less effective than in D&D.

Does the "wounds can re-open" stayed in BW revised ?

There's actually healing magic in BWR. Faith is the big one. It can actually provide Treatment. And after a wound has been successfully treated, Elven Mirrorwine, Elven Bread, and the sorcerous Blessed Hands spell can all dramatically increase recovery time.

[rafial]

And now that I think of it, don't the Roden have an healing herb?

[luke]

can all dramatically increase recovery time.

If by "increase" you mean "decrease." :wink:

[Thor]

If by "increase" you mean "decrease." :wink:

Yasu. :cry:

[stormsweeper]

futhremore, one has to figure out if "healing magic" got fudged in the setting because of D&D rules or if it was "there" in the first place...

FR got it's start as the author's D&D campaign, who then developed into a setting for TSR. yes, that means Elminster was someone's cheating munhkin character. :twisted:

[Marune]

FR got it's start as the author's D&D campaign, who then developed into a setting for TSR. yes, that means Elminster was someone's cheating munhkin character. :twisted:

LOL, that's why I didn't want to say what is was.

First, FR started as a short story written by a 9 years old boy and many ideas/characters were defined before it becomes a homebrew d&d setting. TSR than modified it quite a bit to make it a published setting.

Second, Elminster was never a PC and his role was (before TSR decided otherwise) to be the narrator of the realms (look at the 1e Old grey box).

That being said, I don't want this thread to become a pro/anti-FR one.

[stormsweeper]

Well, that kid (Ed Greenwood) is also the one who developed the setting for TSR, starting in the mid 70s. :P I'm not familiar enough with the breadth of the canon before 1975 to really be of much help, then. I'm not sure many people will be.

[Marune]

Well, that kid (Ed Greenwood) is also the one who developed the setting for TSR, starting in the mid 70s. :P I'm not familiar enough with the breadth of the canon before 1975 to really be of much help, then. I'm not sure many people will be.

Of course he helped and he still helps, but he was never a TSR/WOTC employee, even less someone in charge of taking editorial decision.

Also, my goal is not to remove every little bit of D&Dism in FR, but those that 1) bother me 2) that are known to don't fit the "original realms".

[stormsweeper]

Of course he helped and he still helps, but he was never a TSR/WOTC employee, even less someone in charge of taking editorial decision.

He co-wrote the boxed set, and tons of material for TSR and later WotC. Not sure what else you want me to say here. :lol:


Also, my goal is not to remove every little bit of D&Dism in FR, but those that 1) bother me 2) that are known to don't fit the "original realms".

1) We don't know what these are unless you tell us! :P
2) Refer to my prior post. I have no practical knowledge of the "OR" and I doubt many do! Now if you wanted to get into old works by PKD... :lol:

[Marune]

He co-wrote the boxed set, and tons of material for TSR and later WotC. Not sure what else you want me to say here. :lol:

I just mean that many things were added by other author/designer/editor and he wasn't the guy saying yes/no to these addition. I (and many others) know some of them because of his answers on the FR mailing list and on Candlekeep forum. I don't say that I want to remove all of them !



1) We don't know what these are unless you tell us! :P


Ok, some "D&Dims" I don't like (from 3.x) :
-XP mainly based on critters killed.
-Clerics (everything about them)
-Level adjustments to play "more powerful" races
-Some side effect of abstract HP (No called shots, etc.)
-All characters must be balanced in combat (including bards)
-Bad effects too easy to remove (level drain, stats drain, etc.)
-High level spells effect perfectly deterministic (even Teleport is no more dangerous)
-The balance works only if you follow the magical items guidelines (at level 10, a PC should have xyz worth of gp)
-The balance works only if the party has 4 "tough" encounters or 2 "very tough" encounters / day.



2) Refer to my prior post. I have no practical knowledge of the "OR" and I doubt many do! Now if you wanted to get into old works by PKD... :lol:

See my previous comment, it applies too.