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modsr
07-15-2006, 10:36 AM
Here we go again. In my neverending quest to make the Fight! mechanics more playable to me and my group, I've devised yet another possible solution, and would like to hear your comments on it.

BTW, my last attempt, The Wheel Of Steel (BW meets TRoS combat) worked really great IMO, but my players had some serious issues with using two different sets of books. Like me they liked how the two games fit almost perfectly, but just found the heaps of books unbearable. I will continue to play certain types of games with Wheel Of Steel, but am looking to make BW my no 1 game.

I've said it many times before: I don't like the scripting-part of Fight!. I do, however like scripting in RaC and DoW. I was wondering why it is so. I realized it has a lot to do with multiple actions in a single volley (which is different from RaC and DoW). Trying to guess when an opponent takes his 4th and 5th action feels frustrating, makes combat more of a mishmash, and takes the fun out of it (for me). DoW and RaC feel more structured and less chaotic (I know, this is probably intentional but it's still making melee a PITA).

I got to thinking, what if everyone had 3 actions in Fight!, just like in DoW and RaC? Reflexes would be far less important, pure skill and brawn would become more important (I feel Power is way too unimportant for a fighter-type character in BW). Reflexes would still have its other uses:

- +1D for positioning tests (higher Ref)
- bidding for Initiative
- changing actions

Did I miss any? Anyhoo, high-reflex guys would then fight like I think they might in real life: by adapting to the situation and going first, not hitting a guy twice in the time it takes his opponent to make one block. If multiple strikes were available, it should be based on the character's skill, if anything IMO. But that's beside the point, I'm really OK with 3 actions in 3 volleys.

Taking damage would not drop your actions. The death spiral is leathal enough already IMO. On average though, I guess failing a Steel test would become more dangerous than in normal Fight!, as the average combatant has 3+ actions, so that would bring some "balance" to the equation. And it would make Steel more important, which is also cool since I'd imagine Steel (or something like it) would be very important in real-life combat.

Possible complications I just thought of include drawing a weapon or taking any other multiple-action-requiring action. They would seem to take a very long time. I haven't thought this through but maybe you could use your "additional" actions (those in excess of 3) for actions not directly related to combat (physical acts). I would imagine this is also something a high-reflex guy could do well in combat: close doors and fell bookshelves amidst exchanging blows. Another complication would be that Ref 1 and Ref 3 wouldn't be different anyhow (except for positioning tests), whereas in the original system 1 and 3 make a world of difference. Still, I don't think this is a big problem as I have yet to encounter even a Ref 2 creature. Ref is a derived attribute and it's not like players are going to Min/Max it as Speed, Agility and Perception are very important stats in combat and outside of it.

I bet I'm missing something here, and that's why I posted this for others to read. I think the above rules are pretty simple and make a big(ish) difference on how combat feels, what kind of characters excel in combat and how higher-reflexed characters fight. And I don't feel like I'm raping the system as such mechanics are already present in the game (DoW and RaC).

modsr
07-17-2006, 12:57 PM
Really guys, no thoughts on this?

stormsweeper
07-17-2006, 01:18 PM
Really guys, no thoughts on this?

I imagine for many, there isn't a problem in need of a solution.

skandall
07-17-2006, 01:35 PM
As far as I'm concerned the scripting part of Fight is what makes it so good. When I ran the game at the last convention I asked people what they thought of scripting and again everyone liked it. So for me there is nothing that needs to be changed, Fight is great as is.

modsr
07-17-2006, 01:42 PM
I imagine for many, there isn't a problem in need of a solution.

I figured as much for the reason this isn't a hot topic. Still, even on these forums, some people have been known to make (gulp) selfless efforts. Like in this instance point out why this particular modification to the rules would totally wreck the whole system. Or hopefully maybe give me a "looks fine, if you wanna play it that way" (like someone, maybe even Thor?, told me when I said I wanted to change the armor mechanics so that successes reduce the IMS result, not remove all damage). That is, if they see no gruesome errors or something I missed, or maybe someone might give an idea how to alter the system. That kind of stuff. I DO realize most ppl on the forums like Fight! the way it is and I understand why someone wouldn't be bothered to answer.

Edit: As I said, I like scripting in DoW and RaC, it's not that I don't like scripting PER SE, but somehow the huge amounts of actions in Fight! bother me. It kinda lacks structure because of it, if you get my meaning.

stormsweeper
07-17-2006, 02:04 PM
I think it makes high-statted characters less powerful, for no real benefit that I can discern, besides not wanting to adjucate more than one action per volley. It removes a big part of the tactics from scripting to boot.

luke
07-17-2006, 02:48 PM
Modsr, have you checked out BE's Firefight rules yet? There's no Reflexes involved. I've experimented with doing 3 actions/3 volleys for Fight! before, but I've found it lacks the strategy and intensity that I enjoy in that system.

-L

zabieru
07-17-2006, 05:46 PM
I think you're better off doing it like the DoW, R&C, and Firefight. You get three actions. You don't have a Reflexes stat.

This avoids all the bookkeeping of what's a noncombat action, having two pools of actions, who's the higher reflexes, all of which is essentially besides the point.

modsr
07-18-2006, 12:06 AM
Modsr, have you checked out BE's Firefight rules yet? There's no Reflexes involved. I've experimented with doing 3 actions/3 volleys for Fight! before, but I've found it lacks the strategy and intensity that I enjoy in that system.

drift/ I'm really looking forward to BE and especially Firefight, as from what I know, it seems to be awesome. In particular I like the fact that suppressive fire has a good mechanic. AFAIK suppression plays a major part in any firefight lasting more than two shots in real life. /drift

What I mean by this is 'QUIT STALLING AND OUT WITH BE ALREADY!' :twisted: (I dislike rpg books in pdf-format)


I think you're better off doing it like the DoW, R&C, and Firefight. You get three actions. You don't have a Reflexes stat.

This avoids all the bookkeeping of what's a noncombat action, having two pools of actions, who's the higher reflexes, all of which is essentially besides the point.

(btw what's the deal with quotes, I can't get them to work?)

The more I think about it the more I think you're right. The whole effort was kinda made to simplify combat, and by having two pools of actions I'm really going in the wrong direction.

STILL, I'd like that Reflexes are calculated and have some effect if for no other reason than they're listed on the character sheet and I hate to leave a box empty :D . Maybe I could keep them for the positioning test bonus only, I don't think it requires a lot of effort. IIRC higher Ref also gives a bonus dice to chasing tests, which I'd naturally want to keep. And besides, Ref might be used in a versus test to see who grabs the [insert desired loot]. I'd be inclined to keep Reflexes as a stat for these purposes only, not for non-combat actions or stealing Initiative. Can I? Can I please??

Oh yeah, do you see any problems with allowing Initiative stealing under this system (3 actions in 3 volleys)? You'd lose your 3rd volley altogether if you wanted to bid for initiative. It's a huge gamble, but I'd like for it to be an option nevertheless. Then again, not once in BW has anyone (player or NPC) stolen Initiative in our games... Still, I'd like the idea that someone _might_ (if they were really stupid :D )

Thanks for the answers, btw. This is exactly the kind of insight I was looking for.

luke
07-18-2006, 07:49 AM
There's no bidding for initiative in RnC, DoW or Firefight. It breaks the game.

-L

modsr
07-18-2006, 08:07 AM
There's no bidding for initiative in RnC, DoW or Firefight. It breaks the game.

Fair enough. It's not like we'd do it anyway.

To sum it up: I'll play the next few games with Reflexes being used only for the positioning test die in combat. Outside combat it has all its applications. Everyone gets 3 actions in 3 volleys, regardless of Reflexes or damage. I'll let you know how it goes. Although it seems many of you like the rules as presented, there may be a "sleeper" on the forums with similar thoughts to mine, and he may be interested.

Kublai
07-18-2006, 08:54 AM
"The Sleeper must awaken!!"

stormsweeper
07-18-2006, 09:03 AM
(btw what's the deal with quotes, I can't get them to work?)=

Make sure you have "Always enable BBCode" checked in your profile, and that the "Disable BBCode in this post" box when posting is not checked.

Bastoche
07-18-2006, 09:15 AM
"Always enable BBCode" .

Sounds like an instinct :lol:

kruug
07-18-2006, 11:11 AM
*yawn*
Dammit, who woke me up?