Inside the Dungeon Crawler's Mind

[Kublai]

So, BW wasn't made for dungeon crawling in the typical D+D fashion. BW ain't about finding traps every five feet nor is it about going room to room searching for every bit of treasure. BW tries to take us out of that mentality and for the most part succeeds.

However, check out what happened when a few of us old-timers took part in a official D+D dungeon crawl using BW.

My character is a freelance soldier with a Loot-wise skill. One of his beliefs is about becoming wealthy so he can marry his true love. He discovers a secret door and takes the lead in exploring the passage beyond, leaving the rest of the party there to everyone's agreement.

He finds a small room and spies a secret compartment containing a locked box. Not bothering to look for the key, he begins bashing the lock with the pommel of his sword. The others call in and he tells them stay outside and that everything is fine.

Well, at this, the others pour into the room despite having to wade through deep water. They bumrush my character and tell him to stop bashing the box. They insist that he allow the non-skilled "rogue" of the party to attempt a lock-pick, though the Ob would be 16. They harangue my guy so much that he gives in. Of course, he fails and so I take back the box and continue to smash it!

It should be noted that also in this room were maps, scrolls, fantastical equipment, other pieces of furniture including dressers, shelves, and beds. The only thing the other characters noticed, however, was my box.

At this point, the party tries to convince me to stop trying to open the box. I have no clue where they are coming from, so I refuse. They try to engage me in a DoW and I refuse! So one characters tries to escalate and declares "I tackle him!"

All this over a stupid box!

I don't know where this infatuation with the box came from, but I firmly believe it's tied to the D+D mindset. Clearly, I had claims on the box. Clearly, there were many other items of interest in the room besides my box. And yet, all anyone could think of was taking my box away from me.

Eventually, the lock was smashed off and inside was a device that was beyond comprehension. Being too large to carry comfortably, my character gave it up! But another insisted on taking it with him despite the bulky nature.

After I lost interest in the box, I searched the bed and found the key! Had the other characters not been obsessed with my box, they could've searched the room and found it and the other things of wonder.

But no. They had to have a role in opening my box.

It was a very weird moment that I still can't understand and seemed completely non-BW in nature.

[stormsweeper]

For whatever reason, some of them thought we should keep from making too much noise as it was possible the orcs were looking for us. I'm not sure the box itself was so much the issue.

[stormsweeper]

What I did find odd was how obsessed all the fighter types were over the Hozrem cleric's armor.

[Ozark Tim]

I think the D&D mentality comes in because you were hoarding the box and the other players feared it might not make it onto the 'treasure and xp tally' before you note it down on your character sheet.

I can remember in my high school AD&D games that loot we found wasn't even carried by any particular character until the divvying up time at the end of the evening. The loot just existed on the tally sheet, not on any character sheet.

And everyone being fascinated with the box you had to the exclusion of other loot is just human nature. I have a great secret story about this, but I'm not going to tell it.

[Kublai]

For whatever reason, some of them thought we should keep from making too much noise as it was possible the orcs were looking for us. I'm not sure the box itself was so much the issue.

Yeah, I thought of this and I even think someone might've mentioned it during play, but this was a ridiculous point at that time. Previous to this, we camped out for a few hours, during which there was a huge fight with a giant snake featuring many shouts and screams. If the orcs were bothering to look for us, they would've found us a loooong time before I banged that box. (teehee)

[Kublai]

What I did find odd was how obsessed all the fighter types were over the Hozrem cleric's armor.

Ha! There's nothing strange about a dirt poor mercenary jealously eyeing up a fantastic suit of armor! But even here, we didn't do anything about it. We just talked about it. We didn't act upon our desire at all.

So that made the box encounter even more bizarre. Why wasn't the same behavior exhibited over the armor as it was over the box? I think it's because a PC wasn't in possession of it!

[Kublai]

I think the D&D mentality comes in because you were hoarding the box and the other players feared it might not make it onto the 'treasure and xp tally' before you note it down on your character sheet.

I think this is mostly what was responsible. There seemed a complete lack of trust that my character would let the others in on what he found inside it. That would be odd, though, considering I had never exhibited any such duplicity beforehand.

[stormsweeper]

What I did find odd was how obsessed all the fighter types were over the Hozrem cleric's armor.

Ha! There's nothing strange about a dirt poor mercenary jealously eyeing up a fantastic suit of armor! But even here, we didn't do anything about it. We just talked about it. We didn't act upon our desire at all.

We had a clunky attempt at a 3-way DoW over whether or not to kill them, if I recall. This was a case where I think we rushed to DoW too soon - if we had hashed it out for another few secnds, we would have gtten to the same point we ended up at, but without you being mechanically screwed by being double-teamed.

As to the noise issue, it's what the paranoid ones were saying. I agree with you that it was largely moot at that point. Hell, I'm not so sure there really were that many more of the Orcs in the tower to begin with.

[ChrisG]

The others call in and he tells them stay outside and that everything is fine.

What was your motive for keeping everyone outside while you pried open the treasure box? Pretty suspicious.

[Kublai]

My motivation was to have a little moment to myself, to be the one who makes the big discovery and calls in the rest to see what he found! In short, a bit of vanity! Is that so wrong?

Oh, also, the passage to the room was truly flooded and very deep at one point. I didn't tell them to stay behind as much as I said I would go check it out.

[luke]

Hey Pete,

did you ask them OOC to stop it? Or ask them what they were doing?

-Luke

[Kublai]

OOC, I think I openly expressed my confusion and frustration at their behavior. I didn't question their motivation, though. In character, I told them to stop bugging me over some stupid box.

[luke]

And did they respond to your pleas OOC?

-L

[Kublai]

No, not at all.

[Fourth Horseman]

My motivation was to have a little moment to myself, to be the one who makes the big discovery and calls in the rest to see what he found! In short, a bit of vanity! Is that so wrong?

Oh, also, the passage to the room was truly flooded and very deep at one point. I didn't tell them to stay behind as much as I said I would go check it out.

Wait a second. Here's what I think was happening. I think all of our characters have at least one belief tied to amassing a lot of wealth. I know Carfindel's chief belief is he needs a hoard of cash in order to be worthy to court some princess back home. In game we've seen Pete's guard already hoard some cash. We also saw him squander the entire team's fortune and give it away to an ogre through a failed resources test. So when we entered the mine complex we were (a) all greedy and (b) dirt poor. Which sets up Pete's guard running off alone with the box beautifully, we all wanted to see what was in the box to make sure Pete's guard didn't steal something valuable. This was classic PC greed at work nothing more. Actually, for some of us it was backed up by the BITs and worthy of artha.

[Kublai]

I take offense! To claim I ran off with the box is entirely false! Also, my character has never hoarded anything. Just because I found some rubies and some coin and have them in my pocket does in no way mean I won't be generous to share them when we get back home.

Until we get some sort of Tenser's Floating Disc to neutrally carry the gold, you're just going to have to show some trust!

Maybe we've found the criminal... a complete lack of trust among some of the characters.

[ThisIsVictor]

You seemed to me to be very much playing a BW style game. The characters where following their Beliefs! Rather single minded and very simply, but that's what they were doing.

If everyone had Beliefs about getting treasure and/or money and everyone thought the locked box had that in it, it makes perfect BW sense. I mean, everyone knows that locked chests underground contain items of value!

--Victor

[Kublai]

To be honest, only Fourth Horseman's character has a belief related to earning wealth. The other two have no such reasoning.

Also, and this is the real point of my post, why didn't they search for their own hidden treasures in that room? Why did they have to "claim jump" mine, for lack of a better term?

[Fourth Horseman]

I take offense! To claim I ran off with the box is entirely false! Also, my character has never hoarded anything. Just because I found some rubies and some coin and have them in my pocket does in no way mean I won't be generous to share them when we get back home.

Until we get some sort of Tenser's Floating Disc to neutrally carry the gold, you're just going to have to show some trust!

Maybe we've found the criminal... a complete lack of trust among some of the characters.

Sorry. He walked off with the box . . . quickly, and with a glazed look in his eyes drooling like Homer Simpson. And yeah, I should trust your judgment more, epecially after you tried convincing my paragon of virtue of the need to exterminate the last survivors of an entire race so we could steal, excuse me, appropriate some shiny armor.

The best thing about the box, is after Pete failed to smash it open he grudgingly allowed the elf to help him pry the thing open. The two of us made like a 7 ob power test to pull the lid off, in what must have been the biggest homoerotic display in our game yet. And the elf's power went up to 6.

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh and Thor promised to assasinate me. But that was like the third time he's done that this campaign so he's starting to lose credibility.

[Kublai]

He walked off with the box . . . quickly, and with a glazed look in his eyes drooling like Homer Simpson. And yeah, I should trust your judgment more, epecially after you tried convincing my paragon of virtue of the need to exterminate the last survivors of an entire race so we could steal, excuse me, appropriate some shiny armor.

1) I found the box in the room. I smashed the box where I found it. The rest of the party came rushing in. I never moved from the room.

2) I was arguing to kill the blue lizards because we made a deal with the red lizards to do exactly that. I was arguing to keep our side of the bargain, which was important to me because I have a reputation for keeping bargains. I used the fact that we could keep the shiny armor as a point in that argument.

Do you just make this stuff up? Or is your memory truly that distorted?

[Fourth Horseman]

To be honest, only Fourth Horseman's character has a belief related to earning wealth. The other two have no such reasoning.

Also, and this is the real point of my post, why didn't they search for their own hidden treasures in that room? Why did they have to "claim jump" mine, for lack of a better term?

Pete, you're over-thinking this. This isn't D&D psychology at work, its toddler sandbox psychology at work. Ever see a kid throw a tantrum when another kid picks up a toy he had absolutley no interest in 10 seconds previously? Same thing at work.

[Fourth Horseman]

Do you just make this stuff up? Or is your memory truly that distorted?

Oh great here we go again. Making stuff up, that's such a harsh way to put it, no? I prefer to call it, story telling. But I digress. Sure, I'll buy that your motivation was keeping a bargain. But committing genocide sort rubbed my elf the wrong way, and has made him a little wary of some of his travelling companions--but in a paternal, I teach him right from wrong sort of way. Still one has to mind the Ps & Qs, especially when there is a good chance Kirk will walk off and give away the party's fortune to say, a wandering spider. :roll:

[Kublai]

This isn't D&D psychology at work, its toddler sandbox psychology at work. Ever see a kid throw a tantrum when another kid picks up a toy he had absolutley no interest in 10 seconds previously? Same thing at work.

I guess you're right. I just never expected it from mature 30-somethings.

[donbaloo]

Dudes, this sounds like a FANTASTIC D&D game of petty character treasure hoarding! And by the way, the homoerotic chest opening image split my side.... :lol:

[Iskander]

It's weird that it sounds like the same delusion that afflicted our actual (miserable) D&D game.

[Tobias]

You guys aren't playing D&D with BW rules... you're playing the Mountain Witch.

[AndyAction]

I can't believe I'm so late to this discussion!

I agree with Pete - a lot of our behavior is a direct result of our collective ingrained Gygaxian D&D mindsets. I'm perhaps worst of all, with a Module-wise of B6!

Regarding the chest, there's a specific facet here that needs illuminating:

One of the reasons everybody wanted to "help" Kublai/Pete's PC (Kirk) to open the box was that my PC (1/2 Goblin Merchant, Finnick) had very recently picked ab Ob4 lock w/o a lock-picking skill (making it Ob8 with only 4 dice and a belt buckle!) - successfully!

That moment earned me an MVP Artha point and had partially allowed us to achieve our primary campaign goal (rescue the girl). It was ceretainly a turning point for Finnick, who has a belief about proving his worth/mettle to his peers and at the same time, earned him the nickname "thief" to the others (which is itself a blatant example of the D&D mindset). Funny - I pick a lock to a jail to rescue the princess and I'm a thief!

Anyway, I have to confess to having an inflated sense of lock-picking ability after that - not to mention that when I saw the Box/Chest Imy first thought was to get another aptitude test toward my encroaching lock-picking skill...!

Also, I do think that some of the other guys wanted to see if Finnick could pick another lock (or am I wrong here?).

Another primary motivating factor for many (incl. Finnick, the Merchant) was to save the lock, which was probably the most valuable item in the room - ironically smashed to bits by the guy with loot-wise!

Honestly though, lack of trust in Kublai/Pete's PC (Kirk) wasn't even on the list of reasons Finnick rushed to get his mits on the box/chest.

[Ozark Tim]

Another primary motivating factor for many (incl. Finnick, the Merchant) was to save the lock, which was probably the most valuable item in the room - ironically smashed to bits by the guy with loot-wise!

Though I sympathize with the thought, seeing monetary value in dungeon trappings isn't very old school D&D!

[CRK]

Pete, you're over-thinking this. This isn't D&D psychology at work, its toddler sandbox psychology at work. Ever see a kid throw a tantrum when another kid picks up a toy he had absolutley no interest in 10 seconds previously? Same thing at work.

Leave the Cortex entirely and move a little lower on the brainstem. Dogs ignore their food or squeaky toys all the time until another dog seems to show interest. :lol:

Just call Dibs and break out the Hackmaster Rulebook to explain the mechanic. I find that usually gives people the hint that they're letting their "inner KoDT" get the better of them.

[Thor]

h and Thor promised to assasinate me. But that was like the third time he's done that this campaign so he's starting to lose credibility.

I would have succeeded by now if it weren't for you meddling kids!