Zweihander

[Yagathai]

So I have a character that wants to play a 'doppelman", which was a 17th century mercenary that was paid twice what a normal man would be paid because of his proficiency with the "Zweihander", or monstrously large two-handed sword used primarily to smash pike formations and take down armored cavalrymen. I came up with the following stats for the bloody thing:

Zweihander
Pow: +4 Add: 2 Speed: U VA: 3
May Great Strike, 2-Handed, Extended Reach

Which I think is personally reasonable for a 6-7 foot blade. What I'm wondering is if you folks think that using one of these impractical monstrousities should require it's own skill, or if Sword would be sufficient.

[luke]

Ah yes, the Zweihander.

When playing with "bastard" swords we allow +1 Power for characters wielding them with two hands.

So your Power 4 weapon seems quite reasonable considering what it is.

-L

[Jabberwocky]

Note that when using a Zweihander, the first attack was basically the online time you'd swing it - can take out a group of pikes (the weapons that is), or knock a charging knight off a horse with ease. In actual combat it would be held (I think) at about shoulder level, with one hand gripping the lower portion of the blade (which was blunt) and then used for short sweeps and jabs - kind of like a very heavy spear. Not quite sure how to do this in game... certainly a unique skill :)

-Jabberwocky

[luke]

can anyone point me to some research on the zweihander? i've never read anything on it myself. I think this is because I focused on the 1200s to 1400s and the pike formations didn't arise until later on.

anyone have any realworld, non gaming sources, preferrably with first hand accounts?

-L

[Durgil]

I realize, Luke, that your last post asked for historical, preferably first-person accounts, but I think Jake Norwood and his RPG, The Riddle of Steel would be an excellent source of information on the zweihander or doppelhander as its referred to in that game.

[Yagathai]

Well, failing to have the time to do any sort of accurate research, I've come up with the following rules:

A Zweihander can be used in "great big swing mode", in which case it conforms to the stats above, or like a polearm, it can change 'modes'. In its other mode, it can be used more like a long metal staff, with jabs and short sweeps, and it has regular sword stats.

Normally it would take one action to change from "great big swing" to "jab and sweep" mode, because the weapon is so large and awkward that it takes time to shift your grip and stance. However, one of my players purchased Superior Quality arms, and I decided that a Superior Quality zweihander would be light and well-balanced enough that it could be changed from one mode to the other without having to spend an action to do it.

[ronnieB]

Oh crap! I’m having a d+d flashback!
Just kidding, but it might be a good idea to mention the cumbersomeness and uselessness of it in restrictive surroundings before the munchkins catch wind of this...

[Yagathai]

If you have munchkins in your group, you shouldn't be playing BW. The system may be fair, but it sure as hell ain't balanced.

Anyway, I trust the player.

[aghrivaine]

Hi.
i'm the player in question. I actually have a concern that it might be too powerful a weapon. Anyone have any thoughts on an official way to limit its use in constricted areas?

[Kublai]

That would be a GM call, most likely in the form of heavy Obstacle modifiers. Also, simple, rational thought would preclude its use in some circumstances. Obviously, using these giant weapons would be impossible in the caverns of the 4' tall kobolds.

[Conniving Wolf]

Unless you are holding it straight and running straight at them. I'm assuming that the tip is not blunt. But I think it is, so my above statement is not relavent... :?:

[aghrivaine]

I ended up doing more damage than a charging mounted knight with a lance. That's just not right!

[Yagathai]

And yet the Zweihander stats aren't that far off from the Axe or Polearm stats...

[luke]

can we review the conditions of the super attack sword so we can figure out how it should really work?

-L

[aghrivaine]

My thoughts aren't so much that the zweihander does an absurd amount of damage - but that a charging knight on horseback doesn't do enough.

IIRC - charging on horseback adds two pips to one's damage. A great strike adds one (with a weapon that's capable)

Think about the physics of that - F=MA and damage should be an expression of F over a given surface area. (That's why weapons are edged or pointy, to maximize the force per square inch)

A great strike means that there's more A in the equation, and hence more F. The A comes from having more time to exert muscle power, with a greater moment arm.

A charging knight, on the other hand, adds to the M, and hence the F. But he's adding a LOT to the M. The weight of a warhorse, to be precise. Further, his A is pretty high, too - since he's up to speed at the charge.

My feeling is that a charge should give an absurd bonus to damage. I don't see how any hit from cavalry at the charge could be anything other than deadly, except in the most extraordinary of circumstances. (like blunted lances in a joust, for instance) There's a reason why heavy cavalry ruled the battlefield (after the invention of the stirrup) until the prevalance of firearms.

[Kublai]

I think a mounted attack gives you +2 dice to the strike instead of adding to the damage. This really increases the chances that you will score a Superb hit, which in most cases, should be a killing blow to most mortals. But, of course, I refuse to keep the books here at work, so I could be wrong, too. :roll:

[aghrivaine]

Oh, you're probably right. Two dice! So it's less of an advantage than say(or about equal to) - an aggressive stance for a competent swordsman.

Does that make sense?

[Kublai]

well it does make sense if your mounted knight also goes into aggressive stance! :shock:

[aghrivaine]

can you do that?

[Kublai]

You most certainly can go aggressive while on horseback! A terrifying prospect!

Let's say a knight has a B5 sword skill. Mounted and in aggressive stance, he would have a total of 10 dice! :shock: If he charged a standard footsoldier, he'd have a 6 die advantage, 4 dice if the footsoldier was in defensive stance.

[luke]

Yup.

[aghrivaine]

So, you think that taking an aggressive stance is about as much of an advantage as a cavalryman at the charge?

The two have equal benefits. (the "stance" of the cavalryman notwithstanding)

In other words - take a knight. He will gain two dice if he A: takes an aggressive stance or B: is a cavalryman at the charge.

Of course, if he's a very competent swordsman, he'll actually derive more benefit from the stance, than from the charge.

Maybe a lance should confer some special bonus when at the charge?

[Durgil]

You can choose a stance while sitting on the back of your mount?

[Trayer]

Stances is a rather ambiguous term for what they do. In actuality stance is more like a demeanor rather than an actual placement of the feet and body. You can take agressive (or defensive) stance while mounted.

Mounted Lancers with the Mounted Combat Training skill have +2 dice with a sword from horseback and +2 damage and +1 VA on a charge with their "lance." Keep in mind this is essentially greying a knights power, as a grey power also adds 2 pips to your IMS! So think about what epiphanying power while charging would do! Suddenly the incidental B4 is really an incidental B8! :shock:

Though this is drifting away from the discussion of the zweihander, which I don't think could really be used from horseback, unless you were imensely strong and an excellent rider.

-CMC

[aghrivaine]

Here's what happened in our game.

My character (Klaus) was a very large infantryman - a "doppelman" landsknecht, basically. He had POW 7 (max starting for a human) and a Zweihander skill of 6.

My friend's character (Daeron) was a knight - he had POW 5, and used a lance at horseback with skill of 5.

When I attacked in an aggressive stance, I was rolling 9 dice, and doing a VA 4 Great Strike hit. If it was an S hit (likely with that many dice) I did 15 pts of damage - basically, Grey damage. Nothing short of plate armor even had a chance of stopping the blow, since I get a +1 VA from having a POW of 7. Sure, I only got off 1.5 attacks per exchange - but who cares? Someone died every time I took a swing.

Daeron, on the other hand, would charge and roll 7 dice ( we didn't know aggressive stance was possible from horseback) and do less damage, with a lower VA, with a lesser chance of a Superb hit. Because he was at the charge with a slow weapon, he attacks no more frequently than I.

It seemed... out of scale to me. I mean, it's my fault - I'm the one who broke this character! But I had imagined that heavy cav at the charge would be truly the most fearsome attack possible.

[Kublai]

This does seem out of balance to me.


He had POW 7 (max starting for a human) and a Zweihander skill of 6.

Isn't the starting max exponent for ANY character 6?


When I attacked in an aggressive stance, I was rolling 9 dice, and doing a VA 4 Great Strike hit. If it was an S hit (likely with that many dice) I did 15 pts of damage - basically, Grey damage. Nothing short of plate armor even had a chance of stopping the blow, since I get a +1 VA from having a POW of 7.

Congratulations! You're an official BW hero! With Power of 7 and an over-sized weapon, you've become a warrior of legend! Revel in your Power! You are as strong as the average Troll! Of course you're going to outclass any normal warrior! (Who says BW can't do high fantasy? :wink: )


Daeron, on the other hand, would charge and roll 7 dice ( we didn't know aggressive stance was possible from horseback) and do less damage, with a lower VA, with a lesser chance of a Superb hit. Because he was at the charge with a slow weapon, he attacks no more frequently than I.

I bet he still can kill a man in a single hit, yes? He only looks weak compared to your ogre, I think. Compare Daeron to a footsoldier and see if he still looks like he's on the wimpy side.

Anyway, perhaps you should trim the stats of the Zweihander to Pow 3, can Great Strike, VA3, and make it Unwieldy (which it probably should've been in the first place). That means 2 actions per strike and 3 actions per Great Strike. The important thing is to create the weapon with the average Power 4 or 5 warrior and see if it is balanced. You shouldn't create a weapon with someone like your character in mind, or else it will always seem out of balance. Even a dagger in your hand becomes more powerful than a sword in most other characters' hands.

[Yagathai]

POW 6 is usually max starting, but I let Aggie have the POW 7 because this was a three-shot showcase of the system, not an ongoing game.

Also, the Zweihander was unwieldy.

[Kublai]

ah. :oops:

[luke]

This discussion has grown very frustrating to read.

Aghrivaine, you're comparing two different things as if they we were equal, and then acting suprised because the end result is that they are dissimilar.

Let's look at an apples to apples example:

Mounted Knight: Power 5, Reflexes 4, Weapon Skill 5, Lance (Pow 4, VA 2, WS Slow, Striking distance of 3 paces), Mounted Combat training.

He's rolling 7 dice (5 from skill plus 2 from his training/advantage). His base Ob to hit on a sprinting charge is 2. Thus he needs 6 successes to get a Superb result. However, he also benefits from having his Strike successes count as a Push action. He's Striking twice per exchange, during his off actions he may Block, Avoid Shield Strike, Counterstrike or Push.

Landsnekt: Power 5, Reflexes 4, Weapon Skill 5, Zwiehander (Pow 4, VA 2, WS Unwieldy, Striking Distance of 2 paces).

His base Ob to hit on a side-step and strike is 1. However, he's rolling 5 dice and needs 5 successes to get a Superb result. He's also Striking twice per exchange, but during his off-actions he must reset his weapon to attack position in order to be able to deliver another Strike.

==

On equal terms, the advantage is clearly the knight's. He's rolling more dice, has more options available to him, can strike his opponents before they strike him and, due to his horse, be clear of them before they can overwhelm him.

That's not to say a very strong, very skilled landsnekt is someone to trifle with. A Mark of B9 is nothing to sneeze at.


-Luke

[Kublai]

I'm not sure if this is subconcious or you are making a ruling, abzu, but isn't the VA on the Zwiehander VA3?

[luke]

why the fuck would that weapon have a VA of 3? It is apparently one of the most useless weapons used in warfare. Why the hell is it being deified here?

:x

[Kublai]

:shock: :oops:

I think that translates to "Reduce the VA of the Zweihander to 2."

[Yagathai]

Yeah, I thought the VA was a bit high too, but after sacrificing babies and prostrating myself before the golden idol of my god Zweihander, I figured, eh, the least I can do for My Lord And Master is give it an extra VA.

... why don't you take a deep breath or two, Luke, and consider that not all of us eat, breathe, sleep and fuck your system. If you think that the weapon is overpowered, you can say so. If you think the VA is too high, say so. It's for that sort of feedback that I started this thread in the first place.

On the other hand, I didn't start the thread to be sworn at or insulted.

[Thor]

why the fuck would that weapon have a VA of 3? It is apparently one of the most useless weapons used in warfare. Why the hell is it being deified here?

:x

Hey Abzu,

From what I gather, it wasn't really 'useless,' just specialized. Primarily, it was used with half-sword techniques (meaning the second hand literally gripped around the blade itself to wield the weapon in bashing, deflecting, binding, and trapping in all manner of ways that virtually make it a pole-axe or short spear). The thing was intended for lopping off the heads of pikes, and also for defeating plate armor, which most other swords were pretty much useless against.

I can't really claim any special knowledge, but if you're interested in knowing more, I'm sure Jake Norwood could give you a rundown. I know there've been quite a few threads on half-swording over at the Riddle of Steel forums.

There are also a few articles that touch on the subject at www.thearma.org.

cheers,
Thor

[luke]

why the fuck would that weapon have a VA of 3? It is apparently one of the most useless weapons used in warfare. Why the hell is it being deified here?

:x

Ok, I misspoke.

The two-handed sword is a device shrouded in mystery and misuse. It is a glaring case of what I mention in the book, "My sword's better than your sword." There're all swords, not much else matters.

Of course the weapon was useful. I am certain that is quite able to be used in close-combat to an effective degree. It definitely has the potential to kill and maim outright, just look at the monster. And it was definitely part of medieval sword-masters' schools of training. Though they are few and far between, there are mentions of styles of use for the two-handed sword.

My "useless" comment came from the sheer historical weight that the weapon was not widely used -- not in the lists, not on the field, not in duels, and not in training. This is born out by historical research of the variety of weapons used in the periods we seek to represent. Such a paucity of data doesn't speak well for the actual utility of the weapon.

In his treatise, Delle Ordinaze et Battaglie, Cesare d'Evoli devotes a bit of energy to debunking the myth that the two-handed sword, the axe, halberd and other weapons were used to cut down pikes and other staves. He says simply, "I do not know with what dexterity or art the soldier can cut [the staff]."

Now admittedly, d'Evoli is a sword-bigot. Anything that's not light, utilitarian and effective is useless in his eyes. So taking his comments with a grain of salt, we probably did have instances where staves were smashed by heavier weapons, but we can't deny his good point. Such a task would be difficult and probably was not the main function of the weapon. (I think d'Evoli would agree with me when I said that the best way to disarm pikemen would be to simply shoot them.)

So that brings us back to the Zweihander in Burning Wheel. Should it have the same stats as a sword? Of course not. But should it be ultra-effective to the exclusion of other more time-honored and battle-tested weapons like the axe or polearm? No.

The stats I listed above, Pow 4, VA 2, Unwieldy, Extended Reach, I think are fine. But they equate the weapon to a good axe. I would add a single advantage/trait to two-handers: Heavy Weight Opponent is at +1 Ob to Block Strikes and Ripostes from this weapon. Great Strikes from this weapon may not be countered with Counterstrike/disarm/lock.

thank you all.
-Luke

[aghrivaine]

I'll bow out of this discussion - I certainly didn't intend to be "frustrating to read". My initial thought was that the zweihander as Yagathai statted it, was too powerful. Somehow, in the process of making that point, I must have insulted someone.

My apologies.

[Poleaxe]

I'd say Luke mainly has the right of it. Some tidbits:

I also don't buy that Zweihanders would sever pike tips. Good research suggests that pole-arm shafts just didn't break that often. The only thing that might do it would be an axe if you axe me...

That being said, they WERE used to smack aside (Beat) enemy pikes, then engage with half sword techniques at a closer ranch - used like a spear.

Zweihanders typically ranged from 5-8 pounds, that's it. At the arma website, John Clements has some pics of him using a 5.5 foot Zweih. that weighed just under 5 pounds! Generally swords just ain't that heavy. Just under to 2.5 for one handed, under 3 to 3.5 for hand and a half, about 3.5 to 4.5 pounds for great swords. Claymores are sort of weirdo Scotts variety of the greatsword, ranging from typical western greatsword length and weights up to shorter Zweihander lengths and weights.

I did see an article stating that William Wallace's Claymore was between 6.5 and 7 pounds. But consider: Wallace was NOT a noble, so would not have been able to afford a good greatsword. Swords were the most expensive weapons of the day due to their being all metal and requiring balance. So Wallace's sword would be of low quality...

I'd give the Zweih. standard spear stats when half-swording. With VA of 2 (don't know if that's the same as spear...)

And yeah, you need SPACE to swing that thing.

Armor piercing on the swing... well no

Zweih. as the best half swording weapon V plate? No I'd rather have an Estoc or Bastard Sword (a hand and a half sword, typically optimized for the thrust - Longswords were also hand a half - at least by 1350 - weapons optimized for the cut). Those weapons were optimized for armor piercing. I believe half-swording techniques were perfected with the bastard sword. Zweih.'s are tools specifically made to break apart pike formations. Generally, swords are not at all armor piercing V plate unless it's hand and a half or larger, and only with half sword technique. And against mail, I wouldn't anything less than a hand and a half weapon! I'd rather have an axe, or maybe a Falchion...

I believe the Dopplesoldners also wore plate everywhere but the face (maybe an open faced bascinet) and lower legs, I'm guessing because it would be difficult for a pikeman to target those locations.

-Alan

[Fiddler]

Just as a side note to the side notes. Doppelsoldiers were paid more because
they had an insanely dangerous job. They were the guys in the forlorn hope.
The first in unit that hit the pike square first. Often the guys in the forlorn hope were they because the other option was a flogging or some other serious punishment detail.

Survival rates for these guys were low.