Knife vs. Spear

[rafial]

Okay, here's a question I meant to ask awhile back, based on a situation that came up in play. Desperate guy with a knife is sprinting (Spd B4) toward a spearman who is holding his ground. Knife ends the volley four paces away from Spear. Knife is +3 Ob to be hit due to Lunge + Sprint. Next volley, Knife continues to charge while Spear holds ground. Knife will still be +2 Ob to be hit (Sprinting), and tackles at the end of the volley.

Now unless Spear is really skilled, at Ob4 for the first attack and Ob3 for the second, Knife has a pretty reasonable chance of making it past the spear unharmed (and then the spearman is in trouble) But my instinct tells me that charging a guy with a spear is unwise.

What am I missing here?

[luke]

The knife would not be able to strike in the first volley. Why is it that he can suddenly reach four paces? The Lunge penalty is used only for target just out of reach. Four paces is way out of reach.

In this volley the Spear would strike at Ob 3 (1 plus +2 Ob sprinting penalty (which assumes attacker has a Speed of B4)). There would be no Lunge penalty for the spear, he is in Striking Distance.


Second volley -- a wise spearman who has not killed his attacker at range, and is forced to stand his ground, would Avoid and Strike. But let's say he didn't.

Spearman's obstacle is still 3.

Knifer's obstacle is 5 (Base 1 plus +4 Ob for the Sprinting Attacker penalty in melee combat.)

Sounds like the Spearman has the advantage for those two strikes. Even an average spearman could go into Aggressive Stance and land two good blows -- or stay neutral and get lucky.

But a stock-still lone spearman is definitely not infallible. He either needs a couple of friends to back him up -- so that the incoming attackers are guaranteed to be hit -- or he needs to stay loose on his feet and use the reach of his weapon to keep his attacker at bay.

Does that help?
-L

[rafial]

The knife would not be able to strike in the first volley.

Correct, I didn't mean to suggest it could. The Knife needs to get close before he has any hope. He's just running and weaving.



In this volley the Spear would strike at Ob 3 (1 plus +2 Ob sprinting penalty (which assumes attacker has a Speed of B4)). There would be no Lunge penalty for the spear, he is in Striking Distance.

I was going with the diagram on BW 154 which sets the striking distance for the spear at 1.5-3 paces, and outside striking distance at 4 paces. So based on that, I would think the spearman would have the lunge penalty.



Second volley -- a wise spearman who has not killed his attacker at range, and is forced to stand his ground, would Avoid and Strike. But let's say he didn't.


In this case, the Spearman had reflexes of B3, so he doesn't get to do two things.



Knifer's obstacle is 5 (Base 1 plus +4 Ob for the Sprinting Attacker penalty in melee combat.)


Uh, he's not knifing, he's tackling. No penalty for sprint, in fact with a B3 power, he gets 5 dice (+2 for two volleys of sprinting, by the new charging rules) for the tackle.



Sounds like the Spearman has the advantage for those two strikes. Even an average spearman could go into Aggressive Stance and land two good blows -- or stay neutral and get lucky.


Well, he'd have to be damn lucky in neutral. With a B3 skill, the Ob4 hit is out of reach, and the Ob3 hit is, off the top of my head a 12% chance. If the Knifeman can take him down with the tackle, it'll get ugly fast, no?

Aggressive stance I hadn't thought of. It hurts the Spearman's chances to stay up if the Knifeman makes it through, but makes it tougher for the Knifeman to avoid getting hit. This is the kind of thing I was looking for, I'm still running pathetically stupid people in combat since I don't have a sense for how things play out.



But a stock-still lone spearman is definitely not infallible. He either needs a couple of friends to back him up -- so that the incoming attackers are guaranteed to be hit -- or he needs to stay loose on his feet and use the reach of his weapon to keep his attacker at bay.


Fair enough, I just wanted to make sure that I was applying the system correctly. I just had a hard time envisioning how to duck past a long pointy stick that can move around quickly without getting hit. But then again, I've never been in armed hand to hand combat with anybody, so I really have no sense of what's possible.

If you think the outcome is reasonable, that's the confirmation I'm looking for.

[luke]

Skill of B3? He's toast -- and he deserves what he gets for standing his ground.

Remember, those formidable spear formations of europe's past consisted of thousands of overlapping spears.
The Asian "lance" style is much more fluid and mobile. Really a different skill altogether.

(the diagram in the book actually shows the proper way for western fighters to brace and fight with a spear).

Also, game tweak wise, the spearman could "aim" his shot and reduce his obstacle. I know I restrict martial skills from carefully and patiently rules in the book, but I have reconsidered -- there just doesn't seem to be a reason why you couldn't take a moment to center and aim before you whacked away at something.

Spear could also set a Great Strike to achieve maximum impact on a strike.

Spear could also walk step forward on the first volley to ensure he gets in range to strike, and walk step back second volley to keep his distance. No penalty, some gain.

And nothing says the knife is going to make his tackle. We had a 10d vs 6d charge tonight and the 6d won by a landslide. (it was sooo ugly.)

Anyway, sounds like your on the right track.
-L

[rafial]

Skill of B3? He's toast -- and he deserves what he gets for standing his ground.


Isn't B3 considered "average" in BW? The Spearman in question was a Tarshish city guard, and I based him off the Mercenary in the back of the book.



Also, game tweak wise, the spearman could "aim" his shot and reduce his obstacle. I know I restrict martial skills from carefully and patiently rules in the book, but I have reconsidered

This is persuasive to me. The guy with the knife had charged him across a square, and it just seemed that the spearman ought to have some advantage from seeing his opponent coming and getting set.



Spear could also set a Great Strike to achieve maximum impact on a strike.


It wasn't so much extra damage that was needed in this case, but a better chance to hit. I do like the idea of "set" for -1 Ob.



Spear could also walk step forward on the first volley to ensure he gets in range to strike, and walk step back second volley to keep his distance. No penalty, some gain.


Again, these are the kind of tips that I need. It's both fun and frustrating that so much is dependent on player skill in BW combat.


And nothing says the knife is going to make his tackle.

No -- but at least the odds are in his favor.

[luke]

Isn't B3 considered "average" in BW? The Spearman in question was a Tarshish city guard, and I based him off the Mercenary in the back of the book.


Nice one. Those guys are shlubs. And really only effective against peasants, or effective in large numbers. Individually they aren't terribly threatening.

B4 is definitely more the "average" level of competence in BW. This is true due to the mechanics of the game. Most simple (average?) tests are going to be Ob 1-2, to routinely succeeed in these endeavors (to reliably generate two successes), one needs a skill of B4.


Again, these are the kind of tips that I need. It's both fun and frustrating that so much is dependent on player skill in BW combat.
Welcome to the Gamist side of BW! ;)

I really tried to build the system so that if you acted using common sense, the dice/numbers would support you. To me it seems obvious to step forward and jab the guy and then step back to keep him at optimal range. Obvious from a "me in a fight with a spear" standpoint. But I completely understand if this doesn't apply to you. I'm somewhat... immersed....

-L

[eruditus]

Also, my 2 cents is that spear sets are affective against mounted combatants and large rushing masses, not individuals. I might have the rusher make a Speed test to avoid the spear (maybe Ob based on how many spearheads are packed into a general area). Failure may indicate a hit with a DOF for damage (1-3 incidental 4-5 mark 6 superficial). setting makes it more like a trap to avoid than a real attack.

Although I have no problem with setting lowing the sprinting Ob to hit a moving target and maybe Aiming actions as appropriate.

[LordSmerf]

One final note: Around here, charging for a tackle requires a straight line sprint. That would seem to indicate that you use the "He's coming right for us" exception to movement penalties. If your target is moving straight toward you or straight away from you then the Ob penalty is never more than +1. Either that, or your tackler isn't going to get bonus dice from sprinting since he won't have any momentum since he's constantly switching direction... That's my read on it.

Thomas