Fight!, Shield training, and Shield penetration

[Neil]

I'm a little confused by a couple of nuances of using BS:J shields in Fight. If someone could shed some light on these, I would be grateful.

The description of Shield Training skill (pp. 63-4) says that shield training allows someone using Counterstrike or Feint to allocate successes to shield penetration. That seems fine.

However, the description for the modified Strike manoeuvre says "Strike always acts as the first test in a Linked test for Feint or Counterstrike." I really don't understand this one. Does it mean that a Feint or Counterstrike must be scripted after a Strike? Or does it mean that a Feint of Counterstrike must be preceded by a Strike? Or does it mean something else that I'm missing?

And why is Strike not as powerful as Feint and Counterstrike, in that it doesn't allow extra successes to be spent on shield penetration?

In addition, if using the Shield Strike manoeuvre, can additional successes be spent to push the shield test obstacle even higher?

I presume the intent is that successes can't be spent on shield penetration unless the actor has the Shield Training skill. If so, what about the use of slave guns, which allow extra successes to be spent on shield penetration? Is this effect dependent on the firer having shield training?



My defult position will be to change Strike to follow the same rules as Feint (can spend successes on shield penetration), to allow the same for Shield Strike, and to allow people without shield training to spend two successes to increase the shield test obstacle by one. Does that sound reasonable?

Ta,

Neil.

[Thor Olavsrud]

The rules are meant to follow the source material, in which feints and slow strikes penetrate shields, but regular strikes just bounce off.

However, the description for the modified Strike manoeuvre says "Strike always acts as the first test in a Linked test for Feint or Counterstrike." I really don't understand this one. Does it mean that a Feint or Counterstrike must be scripted after a Strike? Or does it mean that a Feint of Counterstrike must be preceded by a Strike? Or does it mean something else that I'm missing?

No. It means you MAY script a Strike prior to a Feint or a Counterstrike. If you succeed on the Strike (even if the shield successfully prevents damage), you get +1D to the followup Feint or Counterstrike as per the Linked Test rules in Burning Wheel.

And why is Strike not as powerful as Feint and Counterstrike, in that it doesn't allow extra successes to be spent on shield penetration?

As I mentioned above, this was to model the source material, in which feints and such were far more effective than regular strikes when used against shield fighters. Making Strike less effective and Feint and Counterstrike more effective means that players will have to be tricky.

In addition, if using the Shield Strike manoeuvre, can additional successes be spent to push the shield test obstacle even higher?

No. With the Shield Strike maneuver, the only way to increase the shield test obstacle is taking more actions to complete the maneuver.

I presume the intent is that successes can't be spent on shield penetration unless the actor has the Shield Training skill. If so, what about the use of slave guns, which allow extra successes to be spent on shield penetration? Is this effect dependent on the firer having shield training?

When it comes to hand-to-hand weapons, Shield Training is required to spend extra successes on shield penetration during the Feint and Counterstrike maneuvers. It is also required to perform a Shield Strike.

However, slave guns do not require Shield Training. Slave guns penetrate shields because their projectiles move slowly.

My defult position will be to change Strike to follow the same rules as Feint (can spend successes on shield penetration), to allow the same for Shield Strike, and to allow people without shield training to spend two successes to increase the shield test obstacle by one. Does that sound reasonable?

At that point, you might as well just use the standard Burning Wheel Fight! maneuvers. You won't see an increased incidence of Feints and Counterstrikes if Strike has the same power. Shield Fighters also become far less effective than they are intended to be.

[Kublai]

If you succeed on the Strike (even if the shield successfully prevents damage), you get +1D to the followup Feint or Counterstrike as per the Linked Test rules in Burning Wheel.

If you fail the Strike, does that mean the Feint or Counterstrike will be at a +1 Ob as per all failed Linked Tests?

[Thor Olavsrud]

If you succeed on the Strike (even if the shield successfully prevents damage), you get +1D to the followup Feint or Counterstrike as per the Linked Test rules in Burning Wheel.

If you fail the Strike, does that mean the Feint or Counterstrike will be at a +1 Ob as per all failed Linked Tests?

Yup! 8)

[Neil]

The rules are meant to follow the source material, in which feints and slow strikes penetrate shields, but regular strikes just bounce off.

Thanks for the speedy and full reply. I now understand your intention in crafting these rules. I may not agree with your implementation, but I understand what you're trying to do.

No. With the Shield Strike maneuver, the only way to increase the shield test obstacle is taking more actions to complete the maneuver.

I'm not sure that feints and counterstrikes are emphasised that much over plain strikes in the novels, at least not much more than you'd expect from skilled fighters mixing things up a lot to outwit their opponents.

I think that delaying strikes by one or two actions is more than what's implied in the novels. Re-reading the Paul/Jamis duel, Paul keeps passing up opportunities to land a blow (whether it counts as a Strike, Feint, or Counterstrike) because he's marginally slowing his strikes for shield penetration. It's not the case that he lands blows that are ineffectual, which would be the effect of spending successes on sheild penetration.

This suggests an alternative mechanic for shield penetration: an attacker can increase the obstacle of an offensive manoeuvre to increase the target's sheld test obstacle by an equal amount. This means that blows rarely land, but when they do they often slide by the shields.

But I've not played enough BW, or even touched these rules, to see how they'd work in play. Perhaps my suggestion is rubbish.

My defult position will be ... to allow people without shield training to spend two successes to increase the shield test obstacle by one.

At that point, you might as well just use the standard Burning Wheel Fight! maneuvers. Shield Fighters also become far less effective than they are intended to be.

Fair point.

I was just concerned about taking away a decision point for the player. In standard BW, successes can be split between increasing damage and shifting location. In BS:J, without armour, shiftlng location doesn't have a mechanical effect (though it may be important narratively) so there's generally no choice about how to spend those successes. Allowing all combatants to emphasise shield penetration over damage (however ineptly for the untrained) brings back that choice. I don't know how disadventageous the exchange rate should be for un-shield-trained fighters, but I'd like it to be there.

Anyway, thanks again for the reply. Most illuminating. I don't think I'll have anything of substance to more to say on this until after some playtesting.

Ta,

Neil.