LASH

[cmoeller]

Okay, here's a challenge for you tech-heads. Build me LASH (Laser Shield) for the Wiki. If you have Faith Conquers, it's the stuff that jets out of Sarge's Iron when he's hit by a ChoT laser. Also, it's the grenade that Gopher's throwing in the wrap-around cover (don't know where that's been published, other than on the post-card). Here's the idea:

LASH is a mercury-vapor dispenser that can be found on vehicles, in grenades, as an artillery-delivered munition and (optionally) in Iron. All should have the same general effect. When they trigger, they throw up a cloud of vaporized mercury that disrupts laser fire for a brief time.

Disadvantages: mercury is poisonous and breathing it in vapor form is a bad thing. When struck by a vehicle-grade laser, the energy from the laser disperses as an area effect (saving the tank, but torching all unprotected infantry in the immediate vicinity). It also gets everywhere and kills the peasents' kids when they return home after the battle.

-Chris

[luke]

LASH
LASH is a mercury-vapor dispenser that can be found on vehicles, in grenades, as an artillery-delivered munition and (optionally) in Iron. All should have the same general effect. When they trigger, they throw up a cloud of vaporized mercury that disrupts laser fire for a brief time.

A character may throw a LASH grenade (or fire a dispenser) as either his shot opportunity or as a specialist action in Firefight. On the following volley, the LASH grenade increases the obstacles for laser weapon shot opportunities by +3 Ob. The cloud dissipates after one volley. So if you throw it in volley 1, it protects you in volley 2 and is gone by volley 3.

Technology traits: Obstacle, +3 (4 pts). Enhancement, effects everyone on the opposing side (+ 6 pts). Categorical Limitations: One use (-1 pt), lasts one volley in Firefight (-1 pt), only effects laser weapons (-1 pt) Trait limitation: Poisonous (-3 pts). Final cost: 4 tech trait points.

How's that?
-Luke

[cmoeller]

Excellent, Mr. Crane! Now for your next job: a laser sensor (vehicle or iron mounted), that triggers the shield automatically when the vehicle/iron is struck. A mercury version of reactive armor. It degrades the hit that triggered the shield then protects the vehicle for the same duration as a normal LASH cloud unless the vehicle advances out of it.

-Chrisisbeingalazypainintheass

[luke]

Reactive LASH Ejector
This is a modified LASH dispenser installed on assault vehicles and iron. It utilizes a quantum field which is painted onto the armored surface of the vehicle or iron. This field can predict the incoming wavelengths from high band coherent light energy. If it detects a certain strength of band, it sprays the LASH mercury vapor to protect the target. The dispenser has a limited number of charges.

All incoming laser fire suffers a +1 Ob penalty to hit, as the LASH is ejected a femptosecond before the laser is fired. On the following volley, the unit is covered by the full LASH vapor field -- so long as it did not maneuver with an Advance, Flank or Withdraw. This vapor field increases the obstacles for all incoming laser shot opportunities by +3 Ob.

Technology traits for Reactive Ejector: Obstacle, +1 (2 pts). Ammunition Capacity, Cylinder (2 pts). 4 pts, total.

Technology traits for full LASH vapor field: Obstacle, +3 (4 pts). Enhancement, effects everyone on the opposing side (+ 6 pts). Categorical Limitations: One use (-1 pt), lasts one volley in Firefight (-1 pt), only effects laser weapons (-1 pt) Trait limitation: Poisonous (-3 pts). Final cost: 4 tech trait points.

Total device cost: 8 tech trait points. (That means it's an Ob 8 test in-game, or 4 rps to purchase on a sub index world, 2.6 rps to purchase on a zero index world, 2 rps to purchase during character burning on a low index world and 1.6 rps to purchase on a high index world.)

-L

[cmoeller]

Beautiful. Very happy. Try hitting me with your steenking lasers now.

-Chris

[luke]

Beautiful. Very happy. Try hitting me with your steenking lasers now.

-Chris

LOL. You could always just take cover... oh wait, the Heavy Laser has the Wave trait -- not much cover to be taken.

::targets Chris with a red top::

-L

[Sydney Freedberg]

This field can predict the incoming wavelengths from high band coherent light energy. If it detects a certain strength of band, it sprays the LASH mercury vapor to protect the target.

It reacts to incoming light waves before they arrive? That's... fast.

[luke]

This field can predict the incoming wavelengths from high band coherent light energy. If it detects a certain strength of band, it sprays the LASH mercury vapor to protect the target.

It reacts to incoming light waves before they arrive? That's... fast.

Light is slowwwww.

-L

[cmoeller]

It reacts to incoming light waves before they arrive? That's... fast.

Smartass. No, the laser hits the tank, begins doing damage. The LASH triggers, degrading the laser's remaining time-on-target (even if that's only a second or two). Any follow-on shots are blocked entirely.

FWSSSH.

-ChrisplaysaphysicistonTV

[luke]

It reacts to incoming light waves before they arrive? That's... fast.

Smartass. No, the laser hits the tank, begins doing damage. The LASH triggers, degrading the laser's remaining time-on-target (even if that's only a second or two). Any follow-on shots are blocked entirely.

FWSSSH.

-ChrisplaysaphysicistonTV

What is this OLD THINK I am reading? Speed of light fast? No. LASH triggered post-hit? Too late, baby! This is modern warfare -- you get tagged and you're out! No ablative reactive trigger is going to be fast enough to deflect a femtpo-second, 20-gigawatt laser. We need the real deal! We need high technology -- my stuff works faster than the speed of light, you beardy old grognards. Quantum mechanics, waves ahread of the waves. You feel me?

Science. Fiction.
-L

[Kublai]

Yeah, Chris! Watch more PBS!! :P

[Thor Olavsrud]

You feel me?
-L

Omar!

[Sydney Freedberg]

Cool. It's like an ansible-based Trophy active protection system.

[cmoeller]

Oh, we're talking about the index 5 version of LASH? Sorry, I was referring to the index 4 version. Luke, you're right of course. And you know, if there were any true high-index worlds left, you could have it trigger when the shooter THOUGHT about firing.

-ChrislovesPBSwhatareyousuggesting?

[luke]

(The description is just color. Mechanics are the same either way.)

-L

[Merritt Baggett]

Cool. It's like an ansible-based Trophy active protection system.

Yeah baby, check this Color out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErB92UqQqFA

It's like, one big infomercial of Color, with 'splosions!

And they claim there's only a 1% chance the nearby friendly infantry won't get fragged. Yeah, right! Screw your "statistics", your "science." This is war; shit happens!

Hammer flies, Iron dies, baby! Woo!

[Kublai]

That is awsome!

[The_Tim]

What's the trait cost on something that sends a message a few seconds into the past so that you can activate the defenses required?

[Sydney Freedberg]

I thought of this thread when I stumbled across something on one of the websites listed in the 'ography ([http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3l.html):


The key to making a laser do bullet levels of damage is pulsing
the laser. The first pulse creates a steam explosion and a shallow
crater in the skin of the hapless [target]. By careful timing, the second
pulse arrives after the steam from the first pulse has dissipated and
creates a second crater at the bottom of the first. If you don't delay
the pulses, the cloud of steam interferes with laser beam, protecting
the target.....
Remember that the temporary cavity caused by the
explosions only lasts a few milliseconds, so the beam has to have
completed its work of piercing the target at this time. The individual
explosions will be too closely spaced (microseconds apart) to be
individually audible....


And from another page on the same site (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html):

In practice, a series of small pulses might be more efficient,
causing a shattering effect and driving chips of armor out of the hole,
which of course requires less energy than actually vaporizing the
armor.


If I'm reading this right, an efficiently designed energy weapon is going to fire in ultra-rapid pulses, separated by a few thousandths of a second -- but that's still enough time to allow a reactive system to trigger without any resort to faster-than-light handwavium. What's more, the reason energy weapons need to fire in pulses, instead of continuous beams, is that you want to vaporize/pulverize the first layer of your target, give the droplets/dust particles a microsecond to get out of the way, and then fire again. So there's not only an opening for a reactive system, there's a logical means to do it: put more droplets/dust particles in the way and make sure they linger long enough to interfere with subsequent pulses.

LASH is the logical way to do this for an area defense. But if you want "a mercury version of reactive armor," Chris, what you actually want is, well, a mercury version of reactive armor: Cover your Iron or vehicle with small tiles, each tough enough to resist low-calibre fire, but filled with mercury (or some other substance) that gets vaporized when an energy weapon hits them. You don't need a dispenser, you don't need a triggering system -- the energy of the incoming round vaporizes the mercury for you!

[admiralducksauce]

Awesome. That way you can spray down the dudes in iron with a machine gun, popping their LASH modules, and THEN flash-fry them with your lasers.

Or not? I just like the idea of saving your ass at the cost of salting the earth, basically. :)

[Sydney Freedberg]

That's why reactive armor tiles have an outer layer of passive armor to protect the reactive part (the mercury in this case, the explosive in the real world): Any hit below a certain threshold doesn't penetrate enough to set the reaction off.

Now, you keep on shooting your lasers enough, you presumably trigger enough of the tiles that you start getting gaps big enough to aim for.

[cmoeller]

if you want "a mercury version of reactive armor," Chris, what you actually want is, well, a mercury version of reactive armor: Cover your Iron or vehicle with small tiles, each tough enough to resist low-calibre fire, but filled with mercury (or some other substance) that gets vaporized when an energy weapon hits them. You don't need a dispenser, you don't need a triggering system -- the energy of the incoming round vaporizes the mercury for you!

Very cool, Sydney. Maybe LASH dispensers would be better for protecting Anvil troops and unarmored vehicles (assuming they're totally buttoned up). If the dispenser can spew vaporized mercury into the air for a while (half a minute or so?), you could drop artillery shell versions of LASH in front of enemy laser units like a smoke-screen and give yourself some cover actively.

Salting the earth indeed.

Chris

[Sydney Freedberg]

Yeah, there'd definitely be different forms:

Reactive armor, either as add-on tiles or built-in to the regular armor -- the most logical explanation for the puff of LASH vapor from Sarge's armor after he's hit is that his Iron's armor is a "sandwich" with mercury under the outer layer of solid plate.

Then you have basically "smoke grenades" that you can either throw or fire from a short-range dispenser to cover your own position.

And last you'd have artillery shells/missile warheads you could use to blanket an enemy position.

Mostly these different mechanisms are color, but I'll take a look at Luke's original write-ups again and see if the actual mechanics need tweaking -- I don't think we have a "blanket enemy position" version yet, for example.

[Durgil]

Has anyone thought of the result of all of this vaporized mercury on the combatants? It might not be a big deal in an environment where you have to have full respirators anyway, but otherwise wouldn't you end up with a lot of mentally handicapped veterans?

[Sydney Freedberg]

EDIT: The stats in this post are rough drafts - please see the final version on the wiki (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Laser_Shield_%28LASH%29).

Okay, this is my revised version of what Luke did, based on this latest exchange of posts and my other experiences statting out tech. I welcome comments on any wonkiness:



LASHR (LAser SHield Reactive armor)
Resources Obstacle: 4 pts
Low Index or higher

LASHR is a layered armor consisting of tiny tiles, each composed of bullet- and explosive-resistant alloy "sandwiching" an inner layer of mercury-laced explosive. When an incoming hit penetrates the outer layer, it sets off the inner layer: The resulting explosion directly disrupts the penetrating capability of kinetic-energy projectiles and shaped-charge waheards, and indirectly, by vaporizing the mercury into a thick cloud, disrupts incoming laser and fusor beams. Meanwhile the lower layer protects the vehicle or body armor underneath from the backblast.
LASHR may be carried by Anvil armor, Iron, or vehicles as either original construction or as add-on tiles.

+3 Ob against incoming attacks against the individual character or vehicle only: i.e. against individual shot opportunities during Direct Fire or Suppressive Fire and individual Weapons Fire, or Grenades actions during Close Combat (Device: Obstacle, base 1 pt; +3 Ob, +3 pts. Total, +4 pts)
Toxic to unarmored personnel (Categorical Limitation, -1 pt)
Requires Ammo Check against a skill of 3 after each hit defended against (Categorical Limitation, -1 pt)
Ammo capacity: equivalent to Cylinder (+2 pts)



LASHUP (LAser SHield, Unit Protection)
Resources Obstacle: 4 pts
Low Index or higher

LASHUP is a protective cloud of vaporized mercury, large enough to cover a whole formation of troops, that interferes with incoming -- and outgoing! -- energy weapons fire. It may be delivered by a dispenser, grenades, or large-bore projectile weapons.

+3 Ob against all incoming energy attacks against either the LASHUP-equipped character/vehicle or its unit. This applies against enemy Direct Fire and Suppressive Fire unit actions, as well as against individual shot opportunities during Direct Fire or Suppressive Fire and individual Weapons Fire or Grenades actions during Close Combat (Device: Obstacle, base 1 pt; +3 Ob, +3 pts; affects two additional actions, +2 pts; Categorical Limitation: energy weapons only, -1 pt. Total, +5 pts)

+3 Ob to the protected unit's own outgoing energy fire! (Device: Obstacle, base -1 pt; +3 Ob, -3 pts; Categorical Limitation: energy weapons only, +1 pt. Total, -3 pts)
(Note that the "affects additional actions" clause doesn't come in here: It does affect outgoing Direct Fire, Suppressive Fire, etc., but only from one unit, the protected one.)

The Obstacle to both incoming and outgoing fire lasts until the end of the Firefight, or until the protected unit moves by taking an Advance, Flank, or Withdraw unit action. (Enhancement: Extended duration, one conflict/scene, +4 pts. Categorical Limitation, unless you move, -1 pt. Total, +3 pts).

Toxic to unarmored personnel (Categorical Limitation, -1 pt)

Requires Ammo Check against a skill of 3 after each hit defended against (Categorical Limitation, -1 pt. Ammo Capacity: Single Shot, +1 pt. Total, 0 pts).



LASHA (LAser SHield, Artillery-delivered)
Resource Obstacle: 9 pts
Low Index or higher


LASHA is a warhead for artillery and missile weapons that disperses vaporized mercury over an enemy unit, disrupting its ability to fire energy weapons -- as well as anyone's ability to hit it with energy weapons.

+3 Ob against all energy attacks against any target made by targeted unit. This applies against its Direct Fire and Suppressive Fire unit actions, as well as against individual shot opportunities during Direct Fire or Suppressive Fire and individual Weapons Fire or Grenades actions during Close Combat (Device: Obstacle, base 1 pt; +3 Ob, +3 pts; affects two additional actions, +2 pts; Categorical Limitation: energy weapons only, -1 pt. Total, +5 pts)

+3 Ob to energy fire against the targeted unit! (Device: Obstacle, base -1 pt; +3 Ob, -3 pts; Categorical Limitation: energy weapons only, +1 pt. Total, -3 pts)
(Again, "affects additional actions" does not apply, since it's only one unit.)

The Obstacle to both incoming and outgoing fire lasts until the end of the Firefight, or until the protected unit moves by taking an Advance, Flank, or Withdraw unit action. (Enhancement: Extended duration, one conflict/scene, +4 pts. Categorical Limitation, unless you move, -1 pt. Total, +3 pts).

Toxic to unarmored personnel: It's a chemical weapon!
(Assault Weapon scale damage; 2 pts. Megablast, +6 pts. Categorical Limitation, affects unarmored personnel only, -1 pt. Total, +7 pts).

Must be fired from a weapon -- weapon used determines range. (External Trait Limitation, -3 pts)

Requires Ammo Check against a skill of 3 after each use (Categorical Limitation, -1 pt. Ammo Capacity: Single Shot, +1 pt. Total, 0 pts).

[Sydney Freedberg]

I've put revised versions of LASHR (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Laser_Shield_Reactive_Armor_%28LAS HR%29) and LASHUP (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Laser_Shield_Unit_Protection_%28LA SHUP%29) on the wiki. I'm still not happy with LASHA, the version you can drop on enemy units.

[Sydney Freedberg]

Okay, accumulated self-doubt and an exchange of PMs with Luke has made me revise these again, darn it, since as Luke rightly points out +3 Ob is pretty out of control.

So for LASHR, I've figured out a hack for a device that reduces an incoming weapon's Die of Fate, which is a less minmaxed and more realistic way of depicting what reactive armor actually does: It's not actually harder to hit a reactive armor-protected vehicle, it's just harder to get a good, solid hit with certain weapons.

Since "One extra success gets a +1 to the DoF" (p. 516), and on average two dice generate one success, imposing -1 to an incoming weapon's DoF is equivalent on average to knocking two dice off the enemy's weapons skill, which is equal-and-opposite to a +2D Skill Advantage, i.e. 5 points.

The tech traits section of the current wiki version of LASHR (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Laser_Shield_Reactive_Armor_%28LAS HR%29) reads:


-1 to enemy DoF, equivalent to -2D to enemy weapons skill (+5 pts)

Categorical Limitation: ineffective against Squad Support or Close Combat projectile weapons (-1 pt)

Categorical Limitation: Neutralized by Devastator trait (-1 pt)


And then LASHUP goes back to what Luke wrote up in the beginning, using the "Enhancement" trait, rather than all my fiddling with what counts as an additional skill/use affected:


Technology traits: Obstacle, +3 (4 pts). Enhancement, effects everyone on the opposing side (+ 6 pts). Categorical Limitations: One use (-1 pt), lasts one volley in Firefight (-1 pt), only effects laser weapons (-1 pt) Trait limitation: Poisonous (-3 pts). Final cost: 4 tech trait points.

I personally don't think "Poisonous" counts as a 3-point limitation, just a 1-point inconvenience, because it amounts to "Categorical Limitation: useable by troops in vehicles or sealed helmets only." Also, I've made it last a whole volley, I've changed "one use" to needing an Ammo Check and having an ammo supply, which people can buy up as desired.

So, the tech traits from the current wiki version of LASHUP (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Laser_Shield_Unit_Protection_%28LA SHUP%29):


Technological Traits:

Device: Obstacle, base 1 pt; +3 Ob, +3 pts. (+4 pts)

Enhancement: Affects everyone on the other side (+6 pts)

Enhancement: Lasts one exchange in Firefight, +3 pts; Categorical Limitation: unless protected unit moves, -1 pt (+2 pts)

Categorical Limitation: affects protected unit's own outgoing fire! (-1 pt)

Categorical Limitation: Toxic - may only used by troops in gas masks, spacesuits, Anvil, Iron, or vehicles (-1 pt)

Categorical Limitation: requires ammo check, -1 pt; Ammunition Supply: Magazine, +3 pts. (+2 pts)


Luke, does this look better? Chris, does this satisfy your original vision?