Self-Propelled Artillery?

[Sydney Freedberg]

EDIT: The stats in this thread are rough drafts: Please see the final versions of the Self-Propelled Artillery (Gravitic) (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Self-Propelled_Artillery_%28Gravitic%29_-_SPAG), SWARM rounds (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Weapons_Upgrades), and Active Defense Against Projectiles (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Active_Defense_Against_Projectiles _%28ADAP%29) from the wiki.

I'd like to burn up some self-propelled artillery pieces, like those featured in the friendly-fire incident in Sheva's War (although I'd probably make them low index instead of zero index).

Except I'm stuck: "Artillery mounts cost +3 pts and require a minimum Integrity of 7." (p. 384) but no grav vehicle listed in the book has an Integrity greater than 6. The only 7s are for the Air Bus and Shuttles.

I suppose I could play around with "more powerful" and/or "categorical limitation" (e.g. "can't fire on the move" would be very appropriate). Or I could just sigh and restrict myself to SCREM launchers (which are vehicular-class weapons but get the "Indirect" trait). But I'd love guidance and suggestions.

By the way, I'm well aware that in the Iron Empires, the best artillery support is going to come from Hammer gunboats in orbit. I'm primarily trying to work out a relatively low-powered but highly mobile and respoonsive indirect fire asset that, say, a company commander could have directly under his control, much like the organic mortar carriers in the Army's Stryker "combined arms company."

[Thor Olavsrud]

Why not just use the Missile? It is self-propelled artillery.

[Sydney Freedberg]

The missile listed on pg. 518 has the "Mounted" trait -- which means, as I understand it, that it needs to be mounted on something, and since it's an Artillery-scale weapon, that presumably needs to be a vehicle with Integrity 7 or higher -- hence my stuckness.

Now, most of the time, you'd simply make a Resources roll (or whatever) to get the missiles and have them "off board," firing long range, and not worry about what they're mounted on, but I'd like to be able to Burn up the whole thing for completeness' sake -- and in case someone says, "Ok, I want to wipe out your artillery now."

[Thor Olavsrud]

The missile listed on pg. 518 has the "Mounted" trait -- which means, as I understand it, that it needs to be mounted on something, and since it's an Artillery-scale weapon, that presumably needs to be a vehicle with Integrity 7 or higher -- hence my stuckness.

Now, most of the time, you'd simply make a Resources roll (or whatever) to get the missiles and have them "off board," firing long range, and not worry about what they're mounted on, but I'd like to be able to Burn up the whole thing for completeness' sake -- and in case someone says, "Ok, I want to wipe out your artillery now."

Simple it says in the description that Integrity is essentially a vehicle's Forte stat. So take the Anvil Ground Car (Integrity 5), and use the Tech Burner section Device: Technological Stat to buy 2D of Forte. Forte costs 6 points for 1D, plus 2 points for each additional die. It would cost 8 points to bring the Anvil Ground Car's Integrity to 7.

cheers!

[Sydney Freedberg]

Oooh... coolness. That's a very useful trick for a whole range of things besides this one query.

Does increasing integrity like that have any impact on the Superficial/Breach/Major/Destroyed damage traits?

[Sydney Freedberg]

Oh, wait -- I don't think Technological Stat: Forte will work:

"Forte costs 6 pts for 1D, +2 pts per additional die. This device has a biomechanical set of organs and internal functions. It may recover from Injury. High index required." (p. 389)

[luke]

Oh, wait -- I don't think Technological Stat: Forte will work:

"Forte costs 6 pts for 1D, +2 pts per additional die. This device has a biomechanical set of organs and internal functions. It may recover from Injury. High index required." (p. 389)

Sydney, you're not increasing Forte, though. You're hacking the Forte increase to mimic an Integrity increase.

-L

[Sydney Freedberg]

Aaaah. I'm being too literal-minded.

But screw using the Anvil Ground Car as a basis -- even Lady Sheva's mediocre Taramai Landwehr had grav-mobile SP guns! (At least, that's what I deduce from looking closely at the one panel showing them). So:

Multiple Missile Launcher Sled (MMLS)
Type: Atmospheric Vehicle (Pilot)
Capacity: 2 crew (pilot and artillerist)
Tech Index: Low index and higher
Tech Resources Ob 16
Profile 2
Integrity 7
Control +1 Ob
Signals Automation 3
Sensors Automation 3
Ordnance Artillery
Vehicular Speed Atmospheric 5
Security none
Structural Tolerances: Surface, H8. Breach, V1. Damaged, V7. Destroyed, V14.

(Templated on Anvil Assault Sled)

Traits:

Reinforced Chassis
(+1 Integrity bought as +1D Forte, +6 points)

Artillery Mount
(+3 points to add Artillery Mount)
(-4 points to remove both Vehicular-Scale Ordnance mounts??)

Multiple Missile Launcher
(Missile artillery weapon from p. 518, 0 points because it's the default weapon, and for Sub Index at that)
(Upgrade from Single-Shot to Magazine, +3 points)

Flies like a Brick
(-1 Speed, -2 points; Ob +1 to Control = -2 points)

Cannot fire in flight
(Conditional Limitation, -1 point)
The MMLS cannot launch its missiles while in flight: It must land on a reasonably solid surface and devote its grav field to absorbing recoil. If a unit containing MMLS uses them in a Direct Fire or Suppressive Fire maneuver in Firefight, that unit cannot script Flank, Advance, or Withdraw on its next volley.

Limited secondary weapons
(??Conditional Limitation, -1 point??)
Normally a vehicle with an Artillery Mount has a secondary weapon on the Vehicular scale: The MMLS has only a Squad Support-scale weapon as secondary armament.

No cargo or passengers
(Conditional Limitaiton, -1 point)

[cmoeller]

Lady Sheva's mediocre Taramai Landwehr had grav-mobile SP guns! (At least, that's what I deduce from looking closely at the one panel showing them).

Nope, all of the landwehr armor in Shappar Valley were hovercraft. Shazar's reinforcements were tracked.

-Chris

[Sydney Freedberg]

Hovercraft. That makes sense -- you never do see them go more than a few feet off the ground. That also makes them being open-topped a little less ugly: Shrapnel's still gonna kill you, but at least you won't all fall out when the pilot banks sharply.

[Sydney Freedberg]

I statted up two variants of the self-propelled gravitic artillery. The missile variant is intended for fire support; the fusor cannon variant, while potentially very powerful in ground combat, is really best as an anti-spacecraft gun.

I think the best "planetary fortress" would have very few fixed gun emplacements, if any, but a lot of tunnels with concealed entrances and nearby firing positions so that mobile artillery vehicles could do "shoot and scoot" missions against the orbiting Hammer: Observe, Direct Fire, Withdraw, repeat.

I do have one rules question about ammo category tweaks, though: The ammo capacity hierarchy on p. 523 goes (lowest to highest) single shot, cylinder, capacitator, magazine, case; but the point costs on p. 382 don't increase in the same order: "Ammo capacity tweaks: Single shot, 1 pt. Cylinder, 2 pts. Magazine, 3 pts. Capacitor, 4 pts. Case, 5 pts." So which is better, capacitor or magazine? And which costs what?

Self-Propelled Artillery (Gravitic) - Missile
Type: Atmospheric Vehicle (Pilot)
Tech Index: Low index and higher
Capacity: 3 crew (pilot, gunner, electronics specialist)
Tech Resources: Ob 17
Profile: 2
Integrity: 7
Control: +1 Ob
Signals: Automation 3
Sensors: Automation 3
Ordnance: Artillery (modified Missile, see below); Squad Support-scale secondary weapons only
Vehicular Speed: Atmospheric 5
Security: none
Structural Tolerances: Surface, H8. Breach, V1. Damaged, V7. Destroyed, V14.

Main armament:
Electromagnetic Launch Assisted Missile (ELAM)
IMS/DoF: S4 damage - roll of 1-3; S7 damage - roll of 4-5; S10 damage, roll of 6 only
[Magazine?]
Mounted, Intelligent, Megablast, Indirect

SPA(G)-M Traits:

Self-Propelled Artillery:
+1 Integrity, bought as +1 Forte (+6 pts)
Remove both Vehicular ordnance mounts (-4 points)
add one Artillery ordnance mount (+3 points)
add Categorical Limitation (-1 pts): no vehicular-scale secondary weapon (exception to rule on pg. 550)

Flies like a cow:
+1 Ob to Control (-2 pts)
-1 to Speed (-2 pts)
These penalties are already included in the stats above

Electromagnetic Launch Assisted Missile:
The Self-Propelled Artillery (Gravitic) - Missile sled is designed to provide fire support throughout protracted ground battles, not just a single brief barrage. Instead of carrying a few large missiles, the SPA(G)-M uses an electromagnetic launch tube to fire numerous smaller missiles, which only need to carry enough propellant to boost their range and make course corrections. While this technology makes for a much more expensive launcher, it also makes for smaller, cheaper ammunition, a major advantage for sustained fire.

Categorical Limitation (-1 pt): multiple small warheads, -1 to DoF

Increase Ammo Capacity from Single Shot to Cylinder (+2 pts)
Increase Ammo Capacity again, from Cylinder to [?Magazine?] (+3 pts)



Self-Propelled Artillery (Gravitic) - Fusor
Type: Atmospheric Vehicle (Pilot)
Tech Index: Low index and higher
Capacity: 3 crew (pilot, gunner, electronics specialist)
Tech Resources: Ob 17
Profile: 2
Integrity: 7
Control: +1 Ob
Signals: Automation 3
Sensors: Automation 3
Ordnance: Artillery (Battery, +2D to hit); Squad Support-scale secondary weapons only
Vehicular Speed: Atmospheric 5
Security: none
Structural Tolerances: Surface, H8. Breach, V1. Damaged, V7. Destroyed, V14.

SPA(G)-F traits:

Self-Propelled Artillery:
+1 Integrity, bought as +1 Forte (+6 pts)
Remove both Vehicular ordnance mounts (-4 points)
add one Artillery ordnance mount (+3 points)
add Categorical Limitation (-1 pts): no vehicular-scale secondary weapon (exception to rule on pg. 550)

Flies like a cow:
+1 Ob to Control (-2 pts)
-1 to Speed (-2 pts)
These penalties are already included in the stats above

Skill Advantage: +2D to Artillery Skill (+5 pts)
Hammer gunners must compensate not only for the motion of their targets but for their own ship moving at hundreds of meters per second. A properly equipped ground-based weapon can come to a dead stop and verify its own position to the centimeter against carefully preregistered terrain features, allowing substantially greater accuracy.

Categorical Limitation (-1 pt): Line of sight only
The vehicle's fusor cannon fires in a direct line to the target, which means it cannot hit targets over the horizon: While missiles can fire long-range from under cover, the SPA(G)-Energy must fly high to get a line of sight. In particular, if the SPA(G)-F is claiming Range Superiority against enemy forces on the ground (not Hammer ships or high-altitude aircraft), it cannot benefit from Cover in any battlefield Position it occupies or from the Take Cover firefight action.

[Sydney Freedberg]

I've statted up two variants of the self-propelled grav artillery, rather more carefully this time. The missile variant is mainly intended to pound enemy ground troops (yay, megablast with superstructural-scale damage). The fusor cannon variant is potentially devastating as an assault gun, but its prime function is as an anti-spacecraft gun. I think the best "planetary fortress" wouldn't have any fixed gun emplacements at all, just sensors and a lot of tunnels with concealed entrances and nearby firing positions, so self-propelled artillery pieces could do "shoot and scoot" missions against orbiting Hammer: Observe, Direct Fire, Take Cover, repeat.

But I still have one big rules confusion: the ammo capacity hierarchy on p. 523 goes (lowest to highest) single shot, cylinder, capacitator, magazine, case; but the point costs on p. 382 don't increase in the same order: "Ammo capacity tweaks: Single shot, 1 pt. Cylinder, 2 pts. Magazine, 3 pts. Capacitor, 4 pts. Case, 5 pts."
So which is better, capacitor or magazine? Are the point costs wrong, or is the hierarchy wrong?



Self-Propelled Artillery (Gravitic) - Missile
Type: Atmospheric Vehicle (Pilot)
Tech Index: Low index and higher
Capacity: 3 crew (pilot, gunner, electronics specialist)
Tech Resources: Ob 17
Profile: 2
Integrity: 7
Control: +1 Ob
Signals: Automation 3
Sensors: Automation 3
Ordnance: Artillery (modified Missile, see below); Squad Support-scale secondary weapons only
Vehicular Speed: Atmospheric 5
Security: none
Structural Tolerances: Surface, H8. Breach, V1. Damaged, V7. Destroyed, V14.

Main armament:
Electromagnetic Launch Assisted Missile (ELAM)
IMS/DoF: S4 damage - roll of 1-3; S7 damage - roll of 4-5; S10 damage, roll of 6 only
[Magazine?]
Mounted, Intelligent, Megablast, Indirect

SPA(G)-M Traits:

Self-Propelled Artillery:
+1 Integrity, bought as +1 Forte (+6 pts)
Remove both Vehicular ordnance mounts (-4 points)
add one Artillery ordnance mount (+3 points)
add Categorical Limitation (-1 pts): no vehicular-scale secondary weapon (exception to rule on pg. 550)

Flies like a cow:
+1 Ob to Control (-2 pts)
-1 to Speed (-2 pts)
These penalties are already included in the stats above

Electromagnetic Launch Assisted Missile:
The Self-Propelled Artillery (Gravitic) - Missile sled is designed to provide fire support throughout protracted ground battles, not just a single brief barrage. Instead of carrying a few large missiles, the SPA(G)-M uses an electromagnetic launch tube to fire numerous smaller missiles, which only need to carry enough propellant to boost their range and make course corrections. While this technology makes for a much more expensive launcher, it also makes for smaller, cheaper ammunition, a major advantage for sustained fire.

Categorical Limitation (-1 pt): multiple small warheads, -1 to DoF

Increase Ammo Capacity from Single Shot to Cylinder (+2 pts)
Increase Ammo Capacity again, from Cylinder to [?Magazine?] (+3 pts)




Self-Propelled Artillery (Gravitic) - Fusor
Type: Atmospheric Vehicle (Pilot)
Tech Index: Low index and higher
Capacity: 3 crew (pilot, gunner, electronics specialist)
Tech Resources: Ob 17
Profile: 2
Integrity: 7
Control: +1 Ob
Signals: Automation 3
Sensors: Automation 3
Ordnance: Artillery (Battery, +2D to hit); Squad Support-scale secondary weapons only
Vehicular Speed: Atmospheric 5
Security: none
Structural Tolerances: Surface, H8. Breach, V1. Damaged, V7. Destroyed, V14.

SPA(G)-F traits:

Self-Propelled Artillery:
+1 Integrity, bought as +1 Forte (+6 pts)
Remove both Vehicular ordnance mounts (-4 points)
add one Artillery ordnance mount (+3 points)
add Categorical Limitation (-1 pts): no vehicular-scale secondary weapon (exception to rule on pg. 550)

Flies like a cow:
+1 Ob to Control (-2 pts)
-1 to Speed (-2 pts)
These penalties are already included in the stats above

Skill Advantage: +2D to Artillery Skill (+5 pts)
Hammer gunners must compensate not only for the motion of their targets but for their own ship moving at hundreds of meters per second. A properly equipped ground-based weapon can come to a dead stop and verify its own position to the centimeter against carefully preregistered terrain features, allowing substantially greater accuracy.

Categorical Limitation (-1 pt): Line of sight only
The vehicle's fusor cannon fires in a direct line to the target, which means it cannot hit targets over the horizon: While missiles can fire long-range from under cover, the SPA(G)-Energy must fly high to get a line of sight. In particular, if the SPA(G)-F is claiming Range Superiority against enemy forces on the ground (not Hammer ships or high-altitude aircraft), it cannot benefit from Cover in any battlefield Position it occupies or from the Take Cover firefight action.

[Sydney Freedberg]

Now on the wiki:

SPAG-M, Self-Propelled Artillery (Gravitic) - Missile (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Self-Propelled_Artillery_%28Gravitic%29_-_Missile)

SPAG-F, Self-Propelled Artillery (Gravitic) - Fusor (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Self-Propelled_Artillery_%28Gravitic%29_-_Fusor)

[Countercheck]

I didn't see these before. I'm not reading the Missile Artillery as something that would be used on ground troops so much as an anti-aircraft battery, to tell the truth. An anti-aircraft battery using nuclear weapons. It's doing superstructure scale damage, right? Which means it will vape any vehicle with a direct hit, and will kill any infantry in the unit it's shooting at that's not in iron, automatically, and will inflict some damage on any almost any vehicles or iron. That sounds like a tactical nuclear weapon to me. Plus, it has the intelligent trait. Nuclear artillery doesn't need to be smart! Unless it's shooting at something that is REALLY tough and hard to hit... like Hammer assets, fortresses, formations of anvil sleds with similarly lethal payloads, or Bolo-scale Anvil units. I mean, if one of these things shoots at a formation of these things and hits, the target will be obliterated, and all the others in the formation will be breached at the very least.

Just my 0.02

[Sydney Freedberg]

Either could be used on incoming Hammer assets, but I'm thinking mainly of the SPAG-Fusor as being specialized against enemy spacecraft and fortifications, while the SPAG-Missile is specialized for fire missions where you go, "See that enemy infantry battalion spread out and well dug-in over there? No, actually, you don't."

[Countercheck]

I might suggest dropping it down to vehicular scale damage then. The Megablast trait does a good job of giving the blanket death and destruction effect, but dealing out vehicular scale damage as SPLASH damage seems perhaps excessive when human scale would do the job just as well. Do you want to be able to obliterate an entire unit of anvil armoured troops with a single fire oportunity? Or would it be more interesting if they had shrapnel spanging off their armour, cutting into vulnerable areas, watching one or two team-mates go down with mortal wounds while others merely get banged up, or miraculously emerge unscathed, while the poor bastard who took the hit can't be found at all?

If you want this to be a prized asset that can vaporize hundreds of non-iron infantry in a moment, then it's good. If you want this to be basic field artillery anyone might use, I'd drop it down to vehiclular.

[Sydney Freedberg]

The standard Anvil Assault Sled can already carry indirect-fire SCReM missiles doing vehicular-scale damage:That's your organic artillery support. The SPAG-M is the monster weapon -- forget my earlier example about infantry under cover and imagine an approaching mechanized force being blown to smithereens.

[Countercheck]

Ah. So it IS a continental seige unit =) Just a fragile one. Fair enough.

[Sydney Freedberg]

Well, yes, I suppose a battery of SPAG-Ms could in fact do awful things to every city on a mid-sized continent over the course of, say, a leisurely afternoon, but let's not get carried away. (Besides, we need those cities: Reloads are expensive, and you have to get loot/taxes from somewhere!).

Instead, think of the SPAG-M as the Iron Empires (Low Index) evolution of the modern (i.e. Sub Index) US Army MLRS. Consider this passage, most of it extracted from official documents, from John Pike's extremely useful reference website, GlobalSecurity.org (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m26.htm):


The system's initial trial by combat occurred on the evening of 13 February 1991 somewhere near the Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Kuwait tri-border area when the 21st Field Artillery's Alpha Battery engaged in an artillery raid on targets in southern Iraq. The battery was used as a single firing unit, with all 10 of its MLRS launchers lined up along a 3-kilometer stretch. During the fight, more than 100 rockets were fired on several enemy positions in less than 1 minute.
....
British forces also fired the MLRS in combat for the first time during Operation Desert Storm. According to LTC Peter Williams, Commander of Britain's 39th Heavy Artillery Regiment in Saudi Arabia, "It's the decisive battle winner. We call ourselves the Grid Square Removal System because the rockets from each launcher can take out a square kilometer of the map."
....
Captured Iraqi soldiers referred to the grenades dispersed by the MLRS as "steel rain."
....
The M26 tactical rocket warhead [fired by MLRS] contains 644 M77 dual purpose improved conventional munition submunitions which can be deployed to cover a 0.23 square km area. The average ground pattern of a 12-round ripple, with some overlapping of warhead patterns, varies from about 120,000 to 200,000 square meters, depending upon the range.

[Countercheck]

I was trying to compare it to an MLRS in my mind, but it didn't quite work. MLRS aren't THAT affective against heavy armour, while this thing would rip tank units appart.

[Sydney Freedberg]

I just had a much cooler idea for the Fusor version than an accuracy bonus (which always kinda bored me): It has an anti-missile mode, so it's also a defensive weapon! Thus:

Area Defense Mode (total cost: 5 pts)
(Device: Obstacle, base cost 1 pt, affects three additional skills/circumstances, 3 pts, imposes +3 Ob, 3 pts.)
(Categorical Limitation: only against projectile weapons, only against Indirect weapons, -2 pts)
When incoming artillery rounds or missiles are detected, the SPAG-F's fusor automatically switches to a high rate of fire, low-power, wide-dispersion mode to blind or shoot down the incoming projectiles. This "wall of fire" is only effective against physical projectiles, not energy weapons, like lasers or fusors, and only if the projectiles are fired by a high-altitude or space-based platform, or by a ground-based platform with a relatively long, high-arcing trajectory: High-velocity anti-tank shells, for example, are too fast and too low to the ground to intercept in this manner.
This trait imposes a +3 Ob penalty to to attacks against the SPAG-F's unit by enemy forces using projectile weapons with the Indirect trait only (of the standard weapons listed in the rulebook, this means Mortars, SCrEM launchers, Howitzers, and Missiles). This applies to both Direct Fire and Suppressive Fire unit actions, and to individual actions to take shot opportunities during either Direct Fire or Suppressive Fire.

[cmoeller]

Nice, Sydney, I dig it.

[Countercheck]

I was actually working on a man-portable version of that =) one millimeter railgun firing needles up at incoming mortar and missile rounds. You've made a calliope from Hammer's Slammers =)

[Sydney Freedberg]

Thanks, Chris.

Michael, I was totally thinking of the "calliope," absolutely. And it would be nice to burn up a point-defense version to mount on vehicles -- Faith Conquers actually mentions this, though we don't see it in operation because the fighting's so one-sided -- or on tripods for dismounted infantry.

The funny thing visually is that the SPAG-Missile would look a lot more like a modern self-propelled howitzer and the SPAG-Fusor would look a lot more like a modern rocket-launcher system. The SPAG-M's ELAM (electromagnetic launch assisted missile) presumably has a long launch rail that may even be enclosed, so it looks like a gun tube. By contrast, to sweep a whole sector of sky quickly, the SPAG-F's energy weapon would have to be some kind of squat, broad aperture -- like the "phaser banks" in Star Trek: The Next Generation (feh!) or the ball turret on the experimental Airborne Laser platform (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/2729581.html).

[Sydney Freedberg]

The image that really sticks in my head now:

A cluster of armored grav vehicles hover in a forest clearing just a few inches off the ground, the back ramps down as Anvil troops pour out, and then the running soldiers are silhouetted against a suddenly fusor-blue sky as the anti-missile defenses open up with that sickening, familiar thunderclap that signals incoming rounds detected. "Move move move! Get dispersed and under cover so the transports can lift off, now!"

[Countercheck]

Ah, see, I saw the ELAM as having a bank of launch rails with rockets on each one, like an MLRS or a SMERCH so it could shower the enemy with volleys of guided rockets with payloads of individual, homing, anti-armour submunitions.

If you want the Fusor to look a little more cool, consider basing it more completely on the calliope. Have, say, six individual long barrels arranged like a gattling gun. Claim that their armour penetration capabilities comes from their massive rate of fire that lets them chew through battleships. Then, in Area Defence Mode, the barrels unlock from their fixed, concentric position, and begin engaging targets individually. Like a flakpanzer where each gun is flexible.

[cmoeller]

And it would be nice to burn up a point-defense version to mount on vehicles -- Faith Conquers actually mentions this, though we don't see it in operation because the fighting's so one-sided -- or on tripods for dismounted infantry.

You do see a Chot point-defense system in action against the "red top" attack in Faith Conquers (unsuccessfully).

[Sydney Freedberg]

Oh -- I must've mistaken the flashes for premature detonations by the incoming missiles rather than outgoing anti-missile shots. Are the CHOT troops just not very good, or is Trevor Faith just that much better than everybody else? (I know "the line companies are dirt," I'm asking about their mech and Iron).

If you want the Fusor to look a little more cool, consider basing it more completely on the calliope. Have, say, six individual long barrels arranged like a gattling gun..... Like a flakpanzer where each gun is flexible.

Ooh. That's very cool. Perhaps a hammer-headed turret, with a set of gatling barrels on either side and a sensor dish in between, rather like the Roland anti-aircraft missile system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Xmim-115a.jpg) (here's another good picture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Roland_010.jpg)).



Now for an Oops: Thinking about the point-defense idea that Mike brought up, and wondering how to differentiate it from an area defense weapon like this one, I realize I'd failed to buy the enhancement that would let the SPAG-F protect its whole unit, not just itself -- as costed above, it IS a point-defense weapon.

On the other hand, costing out an Ob to enemy shot opportunities during Suppressive Fire as separate from shot opportunities during Direct Fire was silly of me, too, so I get a point back there. And there's no Enhancement to just affect your unit -- it goes straight to "everyone on your side," so a single SPAG-F can cover every friendly unit on the battlefield, even in multiple-unit firefights! So what if it costs more than the average Hammer cruiser?

So, revising:

Fire in the Sky (total cost: 9 pts)
(Device: Obstacle, base cost 1 pt, affects two additional skills/circumstances, 2 pts, imposes +3 Ob, 3 pts.)
(Enhancement, affects everyone on your side, 6 pts)
(Categorical Limitations x3: only against projectile weapons, only against Indirect weapons, counts as firing for purposes of Ammo Check rules, -3 pts)
When incoming artillery rounds or missiles are detected, the SPAG-F's fusor automatically switches to a high rate of fire, low-power, wide-dispersion mode to blind or shoot down the incoming projectiles. This "wall of fire" is only effective against physical projectiles, not energy weapons, like lasers or fusors, and only if the projectiles are fired by a high-altitude or space-based platform, or by a ground-based platform with a relatively long, high-arcing trajectory: High-velocity anti-tank shells (from the "Cannon" weapon on p. 517), for example, are too fast and too low to the ground to intercept in this manner -- the SPAG-F would just end up shooting the terrain and any friendly troops in front of it.
This area defense fire imposes a +3 Ob penalty to to attacks against any unit on the SPAG-F's side of a Firefight by enemy forces using projectile weapons with the Indirect trait only (of the standard weapons listed in the rulebook, this means Mortars, SCrEM launchers, Howitzers, and Missiles). This applies to both Direct Fire and Suppressive Fire unit actions, and to individual actions to take shot opportunities during either Direct Fire or Suppressive Fire.
Area defense fire drains the SPAG-F's power in the same way as any other kind of firing: It requires an Ammo Check at the end of the volley, at +1 Ob for each enemy Direct Fire unit action, Suppressive Fire unit action, or individual shot opportunity countered.

This brings the total cost of the SPAG-F to a whopping 21 points, one more than a fully armed Hammer Cruiser (p. 557)!

[Sydney Freedberg]

And since Luke has confirmed that the Wave trait can be had for just five points (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3372), I can now make the SPAG-M monstrously expensive too by adding something I'd wanted all along.

But first, a clarification about the ELAM trait, which also justifies me doubling the existing Cat Lim from -1 DoF to -2:

In a typical fire mission, the ten-meter-long electromagnetic launch tube shoots dozens of small missiles in under a minute (the consecutive sonic booms create a distinctive and deafening crack-crack-crack sound). Once clear of the launcher, each missile's built-in rocket motor engages to guide it precisely to the target area, automatically adjusting its flight speed so that every missile launched by a single SPAG-M at a given target, from the first to the last, arrives at the same "time on target." Finally, each missile's rocket motor detaches and falls away; the warheads glide in to the target, making final adjustments with small fins before all detonating simultaneously. The effect of these numerous smaller explosions is less powerful at any single point than a single larger missile (-2 to the Die of Fate), but across the entire target area the result is crushing overpressure from the overlapping shock waves.

SWARM rounds
(Wave, 5 pts)
A SPAG-M can fire different types of munitions (in rules terms, each must be costed out as a separate item of hard technology), but the standard load is a Semiautonomous Warhead Anti-Revetment Munition. Each SWARM round has a miniaturized radar that allows it to glide between gaps in trees, into windows, or even through firing slits in bunkers to detonate inside, negating most cover.
SWARM grants the SPAG-M the Wave trait: No matter what its rating, cover counts as level 1 against a SWARM attack.

[Sydney Freedberg]

In a burst of sanity, I realize that SWARM and Area Defense should be separate bits of technology from the base SPAG-Missile and SPAG-Fusor vehicles, respectively, so they can be added to other vehicles (say, spaceships) and to keep the cost of the Self-Propelled Artillery (Grav) vehicles themselves somewhat saner.

I'll write up the final versions once I get Luke's clarification on upgrading ammo capacity, which I've been confused about for a while.

[Sydney Freedberg]

I updated the Wiki entries for SPAG-F and SPAG-M and added separate entries for SWARM (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Semiautonomous_Warhead_Anti-Revetment_Munitions_%28SWARM%29) and Active Defense Against Projectiles - Area (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Active_Defense_Against_Projectiles _-_Area_%28ADAPA%29) system.

[Sydney Freedberg]

And here's a possible way of doing a point-defense system to replicate what Chris Moeller describes in Faith Conquers:

Point Defense Anti-Projectile (total cost: 4 pts)
Device: Obstacle, base cost 1 pt, affects three additional skills/circumstances, 3 pts, imposes +2 Ob, 2 pts. Subtotal: 6 pts.
Categorical Limitations: only against projectile weapons, -1 pt; requires Ammo Check, -1 pt. Subtotal: -2 pts.

Note that this doesn't have an External Trait Limitation of any kind, because such a system could be mounted on a vehicle, mounted on body armor, or even hand-carried like a weapon.

[MechaMan]

-Note that this doesn't have an External Trait Limitation of any kind, because such a system could be mounted on a vehicle, mounted on body armor, or even hand-carried like a weapon.

NICE. Just the thing to mount on the shoulder of my Iron for X-mas!

[Sydney Freedberg]

Enjoy! Just make an Ammo Check every volley you use it as if you had a "Point Defense System" skill of 3.

[Sydney Freedberg]

The point defense system is up on the wiki (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Active_Defense_Against_Projectiles _-_Point_%28ADAPP%29), with some subtle modifications -- I decided it needed to be restricted to Anvil armor and above.

[Countercheck]

I'm not sure I agree with the PDAP build. What you've described is a personal defense system, but what you've built is an area defense system AND a personal defense system. It would be entirely possible for a single guy in Anvil to provide protection for an armoured platoon. This doesn't make sense. A personal active defense system should only affect shot opportunities against THAT guy, not provide blanket protection for all supressive and direct fire for his unit. If you want your captain with anvil mounted ADS to protect his troops, he needs to stand up and take the fire... it probably wouldn't have the range otherwise.

I'd argue that any point defense system is going to be bloody big, and should be Heavy and probably require a Tripod or a grav base, but that any troops, even those without armour, should be able to set it up and watch as it knocks down shells for the entire unit, but the hostiles DO manage to get a shot opportunity, the PDAP shouldn't have an effect on the shot. They managed to sneak a shot through the wall of fire... that was simulated by the increased obstical for the direct fire action.

[Sydney Freedberg]

Very good point that affecting unit actions amounts to area defense. It's obvious now that you say it, but my brain hadn't clicked to that -- gamer oldthink, I guess. I've revised the wiki version accordingly (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Active_Defense_Against_Projectiles _-_Point_%28ADAPP%29) to make it only impact individual attacks rather than unit attacks -- which actually doesn't change the cost much, because there are two different Close Combat actions to buy defense against.

And I like your division between a unit-scale area defense system affecting unit actions while a point defense system affects shot opportunities. That makes a lot of sense. So now we have something else to write up!

[Sydney Freedberg]

How about this for the unit level?

Active Defense Against Projectiles - Unit (ADAPU
total cost: 8 pts
Low Index or higher

Applies a +3 Ob penalty against any Direct Fire or Suppressive Fire unit actions, or any individual shot opportunities, using large-bore projectile weapons against its unit. Does not work in Close Combat. Too large for one person to carry: It must be mounted on either a tripod or a vehicle. Has a dedicated power supply.

Device: Obstacle, base cost 1 pt, affects three additional skills/circumstances, 3 pts, imposes +3 Ob, 3 pts. (+7 pts)

Requires Ammo Check (categorical limitation, -1 point)

Ammo Supply: Power Pack (+6 pts)

Either Heavy (-3 pts) or Mounted (-3 pts)

Categorical Limitation: only against projectile weapons (-1 pt)

Statting this up makes me realize that the Point Defense version probably needs to pay for its ammo supply too, which would up its cost by at least one point, for "single shot" (the area defense version simply forces an ammo check on the parent Battery, so it doesn't need to pay for ammo supply separately). On the other hand, "only mounted on Anvil or Iron or a vehicle" comes close to a -3 point external trait limitation.... EDITED TO ADD: I revised it (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Active_Defense_Against_Projectiles _-_Point_%28ADAPP%29).

Help?

[Sydney Freedberg]

And ADAPU is now on the wiki (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Active_Defense_Against_Projectiles _-_Unit_%28ADAPU%29), revised to be an add-on to an existing heavy energy weapon (like a mini-ADAPA) rather than a stand-alone system.

I'm still not 100% confident I'm pricing out the extra cost for an Obstacle against multiple Firefight actions, so I'd very much appreciate comments and corrections on that aspect of these systems in particular.

[Sydney Freedberg]

I revised the Wiki version of ADAPU (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Active_Defense_Against_Projectiles _-_Unit_%28ADAPU%29) and the ADAPP (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Active_Defense_Against_Projectiles _-_Point_%28ADAPP%29) to include the 6-point Enhancement "affects everyone on the opposing side" which they really needed to be fair, and changed ADAPA (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Active_Defense_Against_Projectiles _-_Area_%28ADAPA%29) from a 6-pt "affects every enemy" to an 8-pt "affects everyone" Enhancement, then scaled down the Obstacle to a more reasonable +2.