Wound Modifiers and Skills

[Kublai]

As we all know, wounds will subtract dice from Stats, Attributes, and Skills. When a Stat reaches zero, you are incapacitated. When a Skill reaches zero, you can't use it. Well, I am not entirely satisfied with the latter.

I am thinking of ruling that skills can't drop below 1. This means that no matter how wounded you are, you can still try to swing a sword or shoot a crossbow. I've always hated telling players whose characters are still up that they can't fight back. I always want them to have a chance. There's another aspect, too. Imagine a character with a B5 agility but only a knife skill of B2. he couldn't use his knife skill with 2 light wounds, but he could default off of his Agility to get three dice towards a double-obstacle Brawling attack. Sure, it would be difficult, but at least he had a chance.

Also, there's been talk of Superficial Wounds and a ceiling of +1 Obstacle. So, if you had two Supies, it's still only +1 Ob. +2 Ob is pretty severe, I've been realizing.

Both need to be playtested, obviously, to determine game effects.

[luke]

In case it wasn't obvious: I really don't like this mod. Sometimes you're just in too much pain to think. That "sometimes" is often just after you've been stabbed.

Pain sucks. Reducing exp 1 or 2 skills to zero really isn't a big deal, the characters isn't that good in it anyway. And for Severe and Traumatic wounds dropping skills to zero, to this I say "Amen." Let me chop off your hand and see how much you want give a speech on civic responsibility.

All that said, having the "zero'd" skills revert back to that wound-modified stat for a double-obstacle test isn't really mechanically bad idea at all. I'd only allow it in a pinch, though.

-L

[Lxndr]

Kublai> On your second comment sort of hidden there at the bottom, my (somewhat complex) ruling on Superficial and Light wound modifiers is "once you've lost your first die, you don't take any further obstacle penalties in the same combat." You still count the wounds for the purpose of adding up to another die penalty, though, and the "first die" doesn't include dice penalties from healing-wounds.

As for the first, I'm against skills being low-capped at 1. I like the othe ridea, though, that zero-ed skills could be allowed to use the modified stat at a double obstacle penalty, though.

[Mickeroo]

It seems to me that now, with the new wound rules, a superficial is more damaging then a light wound, and maybe even equal to a midi. Think about it, +1 OB means you need one more success, right? And on average, this will take 2 dice with a mundane skill, stat, et cetera. So, in effect, by taking a superficial wound, you're losing 2d on mundane stats, and, if you follow my math, 4/3 D on Heroic stats, and 7/6 D on supernatural ones, all of which are greater then the 1d being lost by a light wound.

You may be thinking, "But a +1 OB won't knock you out." To this I respond, unless you are a munchkin, of whose race I think we should punish anyway, "-1 D won't knock you out either." Like those wizards who get a G6 will and a B1 perception :x ...you know who you are.

[Durgil]

It seems to me that now, with the new wound rules, a superficial is more damaging then a light wound, and maybe even equal to a midi...
Actually that isn't true if you calculate the probabilities. Check out the Probability Tables (http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=31) that I created for BW. This was also discussed on the topic, Alternate Wound Tolerance Penalties (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=226).

[Mickeroo]

Maybe I'm reading the table wrong but here's an example:

Someone with a B4 skill is trying an OB 3 test. Normally, they have a 31.2% chance of sucess. With a +1 OB, or a B4 Ob4 test, that makes it a 6.2% chance for sucess. However, with -1D, making it a B3 Ob3 test, there is a 12.5% chance for sucess, nearly twice as good.

I looked over that whole chart and it seems that -1d is better, or at least even, in every case, for all shade, obstacles, and number of die. I read that the new system was supposed to be harsher, but it should still make sense, less severe wounds should haves less severe penalties.

Don't get me wrong though, I love this system. It's the greatest I've played, I just don't sgree with this one aspect, although it's still better then most other systems.

[luke]

i'll let you in on a little secret:

Both wounding systems were designed so that little wounds "hurt more" than bigger wounds. Bigger wounds, however, have other affects. They cause Steel tests, they reduce Reflexes -- making you slower and more vulnerable -- and, of course, they reduce skill and stat dice until you are unconscious.

So phenonema you are seeing in the numbers isn't an accident, it's a choice.

-L

[Mickeroo]

Both wounding systems were designed so that little wounds "hurt more" than bigger wounds. Bigger wounds, however, have other affects. They cause Steel tests, they reduce Reflexes -- making you slower and more vulnerable -- and, of course, they reduce skill and stat dice until you are unconscious.

This is true, and it makes sense now. I guess I just needed someone to spell it out for me. Thanks for your time and sorry for bothering you.

*Stops complaining here.*

[Durgil]

Someone with a B4 skill is trying an OB 3 test. Normally, they have a 31.2% chance of sucess. With a +1 OB, or a B4 Ob4 test, that makes it a 6.2% chance for sucess. However, with -1D, making it a B3 Ob3 test, there is a 12.5% chance for sucess, nearly twice as good.
How incredibly thick of me to make my above post; I have totally forgot about this topic! What changed was replacing raising DN's to increasing Ob's. Luke can correct me on this, but this was done to increase the uniformity of the game, i.e. the DN is always based on the shade. I believe him and the rest of the NYC gang are working out a new armour system that also makes the DN's more uniform.

If what you're looking for is a steady escalation of penalties caused by wounds, then yes, you should first remove dice and then start adding Ob's.

[luke]

questions are always appreciated, Mike. I don't mind explaining stuff. And your perception of the numbers is quite accurate.

But I'll tell ya, I've run a lot of combats in the past 16 months. Superficial wounds are painful, but I've seen a lot more characters die because they took a Light wound. The Steel test is a killer.

This is all intentional. Pain sucks. I really wanted it to suck in this game, without being overbearing. I think we've struck a decent balance with the latest wound tolerances.

And Tony's right, if you want a smooth curve, switch +1 Ob with -1D. But I am certain that if you did this, characters would drop a lot faster than they do now.

-L