Steel: B8 or G3?

[jchokey]

The rules state that starting steel can be raised by one (from the default of B3) for each 'yes' question answered on page 20 of the CB. They also state that five 'yes' answers can instead be used to buy a gray shaded steel.

Well, it so happens that last night, I started burning up a character based on a concept I've had for a while (for the Harn RPG-setting), and after working through her lifepaths, stats, and those questions.... lo-and-behold, the answer resulted in 5 yesses! I'm going to double-check my math today, since that seemed too fortunate, but if I haven't miscalculated or misread the rules, it seems I have a choice between a B8 Steel or a G3 one.

It's an interesting choice. Having the higher exponent has a certain appeal, especially such a high one.... but then again, there's not a lot of room for it to improve in the course of actual play. By contrast, the G3 isn't necessarily as great as a B8 right out the door, but there's a lot more room for improvement, and besides, it's a friggn' *Gray* attribute!

So here's the question for you more experienced BW-players: other things equal (i.e. without my boring you with all the other details of the character), which would you go for starting with a B8 steel or the G3 steel?

[Thor]

It really depends on the concept you have. A character with a G3 Steel is going to be pretty cowardly at first. You are almost certainly going to fail most of your Steel tests initially.

The character with a B8 Steel is going to be about as hard as they come. Almost nothing will phase him.

Over the long term, yes, the G3 Steel will turn into some serious mojo. But it's going to take a while and a lot of running away at first. Also note that with such a low Steel, you need to ride your GM to make sure he hands out Steel Tests for Advancement, as described in the book. If not, if you only get Steel tests by rolling your Steel against your Hesitation, then your Steel will never advance because you'll never get the Routine tests you need. GMs will tend to forget stuff like that because they don't have to worry about tracking tests. So make sure you remind him!

[Drozdal]

B8!

[Kublai]

If it's a long term game, G3 all the way!

[foxandwarlock]

B8 for teh w1n! That's eight chances to hit sixes on and open end instead of only 3!

[Drozdal]

B8 for teh w1n! That's eight chances to hit sixes on and open end instead of only 3!We Sir are talkin the same language over here. The problem with advencement of exponent 3 Stat is that you'll need at least half a dozen or more stressfull, horryfing and dangerous situations to take it up to let's say 5. That's a lot of running away scremanig, falling prone and begging for mercy or standing and drooling ;).

[luke]

Bah. Reinforce that with a Cool Headed trait and a decent Will and you've got a sweet character who flinches, but never runs, and who will be harder than anyone ever!


-L

[Kublai]

Oh, I didn't even think about traits! Fearless would basically give you a G6 Steel and it only costs 3 pts!

[Thor]

Bah. Reinforce that with a Cool Headed trait and a decent Will and you've got a sweet character who flinches, but never runs, and who will be harder than anyone ever!

Unless someone like you is rolling for them. You would consistently fail a Steel G3 test against Hesitation 1.

Just sayin'...

[jchokey]

Oh, I didn't even think about traits! Fearless would basically give you a G6 Steel and it only costs 3 pts!

In fact, the character has *both* Fearless (-3 to hesitation) and Cold-Blooded (-1 to hesitation), meaning that hesitation is reduced by 4 for her on all things dealing with pain, death, gore, etc.

Her will is also 5, which means that her normal (pre-trait) hesitation is only 5. So, if I'm calculating and understanding how the traits work correctly, once those traits are considered... she will have a hesitation of only 1 on pain/death/gore matters. And this in turn means that a single success on a steel roll (for pain/death/gore) would mean no hesitation at all. Do I have that right?

If so, and if I don't mind that she will still get rather spooked by surprise and supernatural stuff, then a G3 Steel is sounding like the more appealing option!

[luke]

G3, G3, G3!!!!!

[foxandwarlock]

I daresay that Drozdal and I have been misled! For shame! We were not properly outfitted with all aspects of the character before we began our min/maxing! O, the outrage!

Incidentally, I would be interested in hearing how the G of the G3 is explained/role played. Is the guy just naturally calm, or is he deadpan - you know, just a stone-eyed killer. Or is his brain so quick that he processes stuff and he always seems to have a plan. Anytime I see "G" I want to hear the mythos explained - you know since, for me, the G's are pretty freaking rare.

[Drozdal]

G3, G3, G3!!!!!::casts Horror::

[luke]

Bring it! Bring me those tests for advancement! You only make me stronger!

[Drozdal]

Bring it! Bring me those tests for advancement! You only make me stronger!
Oh yes i'll bring it. And then I'll play with you with my dagger as you stand and drool becasue of all those "cool traits" you min maxed into this character...

[Fourth Horseman]

G3, G3, G3!!!!!

G3 = Heroic Pussy, that's how you narrate it. The G3 character is the one who sits in the corner of a room, the one with the steeley gaze who thinks he's strider. Except that he's never been in a baroom brawl. When the first punch gets thrown he's running for cover like a little bitch.

Paul Wolfowitz, is the best breathing example I can conjure. The man has balls of steel when somebody else's son is on the line. Eric Shinseki had to muster his complete B8 steel to tell the Senate Armed Forces committee that it would take several hundred thousand soldiers to pacify Iraq. That's something the rubberstamp congress did not want to hear. And indeed it cost the man his career. Paul, with his minmaxed hesitation of 1--the true believer trait reduces hesitation by 3 when telling lies that you have convinced yourself to believe--rolled three threes on his G3 steel to tell the same committee the poor old general was sadly mistaken.

Who do you wanna be? Paul Wolfowitz or General Shinseki?

[Anteruo]

Who do you wanna be? Paul Wolfowitz or General Shinseki?

Cripes. Please don't bring politics to general rules discussions.

[Anteruo]

I think a G3 Steel character with some traits to "grow into" would be neat to play over the long term. Play him smart without being brash enough to wade openly into combat all the time but with experience comes the ability to be the man of men.

[jchokey]

I daresay that Drozdal and I have been
misled! For shame! We were not properly outfitted with all aspects of
the character before we began our min/maxing! O, the outrage!.

*laugh*

Seriously, though, I do now see that asking a 'which would you choose and why' question like this in a vacuum about other information about the character (concept, traits, background) was a bit unfair.



Incidentally, I would be interested in hearing how the G of the G3 is explained/role played.

A very good question. So far I've thought it about it primarily in terms of 'explanation' vis-a-vis character in terms of her history and the setting (which is the Harn RPG setting). I haven't thought about it so much in terms of how to actually play it in practice. I probably should do so.

I've not had time to finish her up yet, but when I do, I'll post her on the "wheel of life" so folks can get the whole picture and offer their thoughts there.

[jchokey]

FYI: While re-reading the rules (yet again) today, I realized that the game default for starting exponents is 6... so, unless this rule is waved, the question is not "B8 or G3", but rather "B6 or G3". (That makes the G3 route even more apealing, IMHO)

[The_Tim]

I have found that waving the cap of 6 for normal Attributes to be a cool little twist. There's nothing like a Steel of B8 tossed into a normal set of stats and Attributes; it's what made my first Burning Wheel character awesome (that and the whole military force of scum, but I digress).

[Anteruo]

I wish I had more experience with the system. If the attribute cap is dismissed, is it relatively easy to make characters with multiple attributes 7+?

[Thor]

I wish I had more experience with the system. If the attribute cap is dismissed, is it relatively easy to make characters with multiple attributes 7+?

Possible, yes.

First, lets make sure we've got our terminology straight:

Stats = Perception, Will, Agility, Speed, Power, Forte

Attributes = Health, Steel, Reflexes, Faith, Grief, Greed, Hatred, Mortal Wound

Abilities = Resources, Circles (and is also a catchall for Stats, Attributes and Skills)

Now, you can adjust the Cap in different ways. Tim was talking about waiving the Attribute Cap. The result would be that Steel and emotional attributes (Faith, Grief, Greed, Hatred, etc.) could start above B6. Even though Faith is technically on the list, starting with higher than a B6 Faith is rather difficult. You can even, if you want, just waive the Steel Cap and allow the rest of the Attributes to remain Capped.

Generally, if you have only human characters, lifting the Attribute Cap is not hugely impactful. They'll potentially come out with a B7 or B8 Steel if they choose the right lifepaths, which will allow them to stand steady in a fight, but as demonstrated higher up in the thread, there are traits that make similar effects possible.

With elves, dwarves or orcs, you'll want to consider a little more carefully, expecially if you have a mixed group (with only one or two non-human characters).

If you let an elf into your game, you obviously aren't too concerned about disparate power levels, as they're the cheatinest character stock around. But removing the Grief cap probably doesn't make it too much worse. There are only a few songs rooted in Grief (though those songs are very potent indeed), and it requires a Deeds point to channel Grief, so that will be relatively rare.

What you really have to watch out for is dwarves. I can't think of any skills off the top of my head that are rooted in Greed, but the ability to tap their Greed with a Persona point is incredibly potent.

As for orcs, I feel their Hatred should be without restraint as a matter of principle! :p

[stormsweeper]

FYI: While re-reading the rules (yet again) today, I realized that the game default for starting exponents is 6... so, unless this rule is waved, the question is not "B8 or G3", but rather "B6 or G3". (That makes the G3 route even more apealing, IMHO)


IIRC, the cap is only for Stats and Skills, not attributes.

[pseudoidiot]

I've got another question about G3 Steel. I'm playing the dwarven prince in Tim's game ,The Fall of Turmhoch (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3515). Last night was our first actual play, and something dawned on me.

With G3 Steel, and Will 6, so Hesitation 4. I'm always going to be rolling a challenging test. But I need to log some routine tests if it's ever going to advance. We weren't 100% sure how to accomplish that. I thought something may have already been mentioned in this thread, but I didn't see it.

After looking through the rules a little, I came up with two options: 1) Steel advantages. I can get advantage dice +1 for feeling safe in a group of friends/allies and +2 for being startled by something mundane. So, if I could pull it off, I'd get +3, so 6 dice versus my hesitation of 4 would be a routine test. But I'd still need to pull that off three times to advance. 2) I think I remember something (but now I can't find it) about the GM granting tests based on game situations, without actually calling for dice. But, still, that'd be like rolling G3 steel against ob1 to get a routine test.

Is all this correct? And if so, any suggestions on other ways to squeeze in some routine tests?

[Fuseboy]

Unless I'm totally misremembering, there are equivalent-to-test experiences you can have for Steel.

So, if your party faces the prospect of starvation while hiking through the mountains, that might be worth an Ob 1 or 2 steel "experience".

Also, I think you can practice Steel.

[Kublai]

Pg 124-5 in the brown book are your friends! We had the same problem in our Burning THAC0 until we started implementing what is found there.

[pseudoidiot]

Thanks! I just remembered 20 minutes ago during lunch that Steel isn't only rolled in combat. The question came up during combat, so I sort of stuck to that in my head. I just have to get Tim to pull some steel tests off page 125 to get some tests :)

[Thor]

Thanks! I just remembered 20 minutes ago during lunch that Steel isn't only rolled in combat. The question came up during combat, so I sort of stuck to that in my head. I just have to get Tim to pull some steel tests off page 125 to get some tests :)

And just be sure to note that you don't have to roll in order to get those tests. If you experience them in game, you just earn the tests.