precision training?

[elgorade]

The warrior monk lifepath allows it to be acquired. But what is it? Just the ability to be precise doesn't seem worth a training. One suggestion is that it would negate called shot penalties. That might work, but I'm also interested in what it was intended to be.

[luke]

here you go:

http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=102

[elgorade]

One, I missed that on the web site. And two, that a character with that, 6 skill and the example hard boxing style hits damn hard. 5/9/14 (and 5/10/15 with the iron hands trait). The fact that a mark wound would be mortal to many characters is a bit unsettling. I think the combination of iron hands in the style and precision training would be too much. So I may go with the called shot idea anyway.

[luke]

Page 150 of the BW:

There is no called shot penalty for bare-fisted strikes.

-L

[luke]

One, I missed that on the web site. And two, that a character with that, 6 skill and the example hard boxing style hits damn hard. 5/9/14 (and 5/10/15 with the iron hands trait). The fact that a mark wound would be mortal to many characters is a bit unsettling. I think the combination of iron hands in the style and precision training would be too much. So I may go with the called shot idea anyway.

I'm confused, a character with a B6 skills and one level of Iron Hands (+1 Power) would do a B4/B7/B10. Even with two levels of Iron Hands and a B6 skill that's still B4/B8/B12. Nasty sure, but we're talking about a master martial artist who's dedicate a significant portion of his life to learning how to kill people.

Where did you get your numbers from? (it's quite possible that I am missing something.)

-Luke

[elgorade]

The player wanted a Dragon Disciple. I gather it is a D&D prestiqe class for sorcerers. So his concept is that he's a warrior monk who's also gifted. He recently found a musty old book which has awakened his feeling that he's the rebirth of a dragon. All well and good, perhaps a bit power hungry, but it can probably work. (The warrior monk lifepath on the site here does seem to be a particularly good one for traits and skills. Luckily, it gives few resources, so while gifted, this character actually knows no spells.)

The character is pow 4
He has the iron hands trait
He has MA skill 6 using the hard example style.
At obstacle 6, that style gives iron hands +3.
So I thought he would do 4 + 1 + 3 = 4/8/12 damage, but
with precision training, he'ld be up to 5/10/15. Even if he
dropped the trait, he'ld still be at 4/9/14. That's a lot better
(the 5 "touch" bothers me), but it it still pretty high compared
to a B7 sword.

Am I doing something wrong?

[luke]

No, your math seems correct.

It also seems like you have a munchkin on your hands. There's nothing wrong with that. But just be aware, a munchkin in BW is going to be damn powerful.

An argument against such munchkinism, is one that you've pointed out yourself: He doesn't need all that stuff, his hands are more powerful than swords. Perfectly legal, mechanically. But gameplay wise? Ask yourself and him if his hands really need to be more powerful than axes and swords.

Also, I think this slipped through the cracks somewhere, but the special trainings don't come with the skill when purchased. As written they are meant to be learned in game. Creates great story and advancement as the game goes.

If a player must absolutely start with them, each "special maneuver" costs +1 skill pt and they must be purchased in order. So Iron Fist (Lv 3) would cost +6 skill points in character burning (but the player would also gain all the subordinate abilities).

thanks!
-Luke

(btw, don't forget to round up for the Incidental damage and round down for the Superb in the IMS. 5/9/13 is the proper damage.)

[elgorade]

I realize he's a muchkin. I'm not sure he realized the levels of iron hands coming from the MA, but when pointed out he was OK with taking them. I'm ok (I think) with that level, but not with the extra power from the precision training. I'll have to discuss that with him and get it switched.

I had wondered about what obstacles in the MA training to pick up. I thought it was a note in the warrior monk lifepath comment that suggested all obstacles up to skill level be acquire at start. Sort of figuring that they could have spent lots of time getting those perfect skill rolls to learn the moves.

As, the skill cost for the moves is fairly nice.

The I and S rounding is what I get for thinking about games on the train on the way in.

[Kublai]

Perhaps explaining the drawbacks to such incredible damage might curb his instinct for power? For instance, with a 5/10/15 damage scale, taking down opponents without killing them is very hard to do! I know there's been lots of cases in games I've played in and GM'ed where it was very prudent not to kill! I know in most cities and lawful cultures, it would be considered murder. Just a small thought, really.

Also, a warning - such damage might make him cocky and go for stronger opponents than he can handle (trolls and such!). This will only end in tragedy, I'm afraid. :cry:

[luke]

I had wondered about what obstacles in the MA training to pick up. I thought it was a note in the warrior monk lifepath comment that suggested all obstacles up to skill level be acquire at start. Sort of figuring that they could have spent lots of time getting those perfect skill rolls to learn the moves.

As, the skill cost for the moves is fairly nice.

You can back up your opinion (and mine) with a quote from the Rebel/Monk/Boxer rules:

The Special Moves for each art may be purchased for an additional skill point per move. The maneuvers must be purchased in order of difficulty, lowest to highest. You may not start a character with only Flying Kick! He must know all the moves in between.

Burning Wheel is a game about choices. Those choices start in character burning and they are made by both the player and the GM. As the GM, you are within your full rights to limit skills, traits, spells and special moves available to your players at the outset of a game. In fact, you're suppose to. These decisions immediately begin shaping the culture of your game.

And to add another choice... have you seen the Drunken Mantis Style martial arts rules?
http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186

:twisted:

:roll:

[elgorade]

Abzu, I just reread those rules before reading your post, and saw the part I hadn't remembered. So in those skill point costs go. And that may well turn the precision training back to using its posted rules too since he'll probably be less overall potent.

Kublai, I'm well aware of the high damage. In fact, I plan an early encounter where a bully insults him and tries to call him out. The bully is a tough brawler, but not nearly in the PCs class. I want to see what happens when one solid hit from the monk is a serious wound. To be fair, I have already mentioned to the player --- and will again before the fight --- that his hands do more damage than many people's swords.

[luke]

hey, i was musing on another cheating way to use Precision Training to represent the edge of intense physical training in a particular field.

Allow the Weapon Skill with Precision Training to count as your Reflexes when using that weapon/device in combat. Great perk for throwing knives or rapiers and stuff like that!

just musing...

-Luke

[Lxndr]

Oooooh.

A weird question, though: What happens when you have to switch weapons halfway through an exchange?

[luke]

Oooooh.

A weird question, though: What happens when you have to switch weapons halfway through an exchange?

Let's see, you've got a Throwing skill of 5, you lob three knives (1 action apiece), but then you want to use your remaining two actions to draw your sword. But you're actual Reflexes is 4...

So I'd say simply knock off the difference immediately. The sword only gets half way drawn with one action remaining in your script.

[Lxndr]

This could get really fun with grayed weapon skills. :twisted:

[luke]

This could get really fun with grayed weapon skills. :twisted:

There are certain mythologies --anime comes to mind-- where this is perfectly appropriate. With the sword out, you're an amazing bad-ass. But if you're just kicking around, then you're as vulnerable as everyone else.

Players would have to choose their form of Precision Training when they learn the skill, of course.

[Kublai]

That seems really powerful considering a starting 4 LP character can easily have a G6 Reflexes while using his precision training! :shock:

[Lxndr]

Well, yeah. But take his sword away from him and he probably can't even throw a punch. It's an operation of extremes.

AND, keep in mind that if he does get wounded for at least a single penalty die, his effective skill goes down and, wham, suddenly so does the reflex number.